Crystal Tears: why Diamond Tiara should leave the show

[Fractured 2,683]

Seems to me like you just want her to get some amazing character depth beyond what we see now, yet you aren't willing to wait for it to happen. For all you know we could be getting some depth to DT in S5.  

It's not so much impatience, more of a sense of doubt. The last couple of episodes featuring her didn't give me much faith in the writers. I do sincerely hope you're right, though, since despite how my original post may have sounded, I actually do like Diamond Tiara quite a lot. To me, it doesn't actually have to be amazing or earth shattering, just... something.

 

Removing her would deprive her of the opportunity to grow as a character. Granted we haven't seen all that much growth as of yet, but i doubt the writers would bring her in as a continuous character without planning to do something with her.

I'm sorry, I should have elaborated. My post was created on the idea that Hasbro had no interest in her, and would continue to use her as a plot device rather than a character. If there's even the slightest chance that she could become a complex character, then I would love to see it. I'm just afraid of setting up expectations just to see them get knocked down.

[Fractured 2,683]

If you want her to be given more depth, and not to be taken out of the show, then why did you make a thread saying she should be taken out instead of given more depth?

Also, you're forgetting the fact that Diamond Tiara isn't a central character. She's a supporting character. There's no obligation for her to have any more depth than Big Mac or Cheerilee, yet you seem to demand that she be as fleshed out as a mane 6 or CMC within the context of the show. I'd love to see her get more depth too, but I'm not demanding she be removed if she doesn't get it. Plus, I think a big part of this show's charm is its implied depth; how easy it is to fill in these blanks with rich character and history. You're allowed to give her your own depth. It's okay to make assumptions and headcanons, especially in this show. And if they get proved wrong, well, you enjoyed them while they lasted. Headcanons aren't made to be proven right. They're made to satisfy your own craving for depth, and enrich your own viewing experience. The show has too many unanswered questions and too many unturned stones for it to explore everything and satisfy everyone. So sometimes you need to answer the questions yourself.

 

 

You're taking that too literally. What I mean is that she earns her place as a character by having us hate (or love) her. Also, your concept of a Mary Sue is completely wrong. A Mary Sue is created when a character is never challenged or conflicted in any way, usually accompanied by the character being "perfect." The character existing to serve the plot has nothing to do with that.

I suppose the answer to the first question is that people make mistakes, but I think i've said that enough in this thread. I suppose it stems the idea that its so unncessary; in south of four episodes where she plays the majority character as much as the CMC, we've got more depth from Babs Seed in just one.

 

I find her to be a little different from other supporting characters. With Big Mac and Cheerilee, there's no expectation; whether you like them or not, it isn't really what the writers are going for. With Diamond Tiara, they expect you to feel something when you see her, namely anger. Since that's the goal, the character needs a legitimate reason for doing so. If you don't, it can come off as either extremely forced or sadistic.

 

At its heart, a Mary Sue is a character who succeeds at every accomplishment. It's often to the point where the plot will often significantly alter itself to assist the character when they find themselves in trouble, no matter how ridiculous(ala Pre-Crisis Superman developing new superpowers to fit the situation). In that situation, the plot serves the character, and the character never develops because they're never challenged.

Diamond Tiara is what happens when you reverse that concept. It's like a Mary Sue, but instead of being destined to succeed, they're destined to lose. Just like before, the plot will significantly alter itself, but in order to see that the character fails at everything this time, no matter how unrealistic the scenario may be. These characters are always challenged, but never develop, and you'll consistently notice they're moved away from areas where that would generate character growth. More often than not, that usually involves them being removed from the media's "world" at the exact point where'd they encounter it. In this situation, the character serves the plot.

[Fractured 2,683]

And... How does Diamond Tiara fit into that? I don't see that in her at all.

Diamond Tiara's first episode involves her cutiecenera being ruined because two ponies who we literally didn't know before the incident decided to stand up to her. Despite three of the Mane Six being there, none of them actually try to talk to her, and the episode ends before we ever see what happened to her.

 

Her second episode involves her winding up at Applejacks farm, when there's really no incentive for her to even be there. Her plan ends up defeated when Granny Smith turns out to be an amazing storyteller, contrary to everything the episode had led us to believe. Despite her teacher, Granny Smith, and her father being in the episode and knowing of her outbursts, no one makes an attempt to correct her.

 

Its always the same general format. Through coincidence, Diamond Tiara winds up in the CMC's plot, or vice-versa. Each time, she comes up with an idea that's relatively unlikely to fail. Each time, improbable circumstances emerge that cause her to do exactly that. Each time she's punished, but no attempt is made to correct the actual behavior. The episode ends before character begins.

 

Think about it: don't you find it strange its been 4 seasons, and not one adult's ever even attempted to have a conversation with her? In fact, in 4 seasons, the only adult that's even talked directly to her is Cheerilee. Even then, she made no attempt to correct her behavior, she just takes away her title as editor in chief and sorta expects her to figure out what she did wrong.

[PROJECT: Simon 3,953]

Since MLP is for kids (I think), I think they want to show us how to handle yourself when you're getting bullied. Sort of E..du..ca..tion???

 

 

 

every time I see Diamond Tiara, I want to go inside and punch her 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Ater

[Fractured 2,683]

Well of course we don't see adults telling her what she did wrong. That would be redundant, as we've already seen what she did wrong. You also need to remember that this IS a kids show, with morals and conventions, so you can't expect the bully to win. Like it or not, the show has its limits.

 

 

I find it incredibly ironic the kinds of things people will say about Diamond Tiara because she's a bully. It's sad, really.

No, I don't expect the bully to win. I do, however, expect the bully to learn when its reasonable. Yet somehow, even though she has a nice teacher and father, happens to live in a town that's home to the Elements of Harmony(at least four of whom she knows), and has a chance of being visited by Princess Luna in her dreams, not a single circumstance has ever occurred that caused her to interact with them. Everyone that could correct her behavior or help her in the slightest seems to be unavailable, even when they're standing right in front of her. Am I wrong for thinking that's a little strange?

Edited October 22, 2014 by Shimmer5000

[PROJECT: Simon 3,953]

Well of course we don't see adults telling her what she did wrong. That would be redundant, as we've already seen what she did wrong. You also need to remember that this IS a kids show, with morals and conventions, so you can't expect the bully to win. Like it or not, the show has its limits.

 

 

I find it incredibly ironic the kinds of things people will say about Diamond Tiara because she's a bully. It's sad, really.

Bully gets bullied. I hope Applebloom bullies Diamond tiara hue hue

[Red Cedar 1,407]

I agree that Diamond Tiara has not had much done with her character at all outside of the single dimension of her being a bully. In fact, they've made her such a bully as to be sociopathic towards other foals (i.e. Scootaloo in Flight To The Finish). I think it is this fact that they haven't shown much of her personality outside this one aspect that is why there is such an intense antipathy towards her among fans. Rather than get rid of her, though, I would rather see her fleshed out more and have more shown about what makes her tick.

[Hive King 1,998]

I wanna see Diamond Tiara gain an artifact of doom and become a physical threat

[Fractured 2,683]

Actually, you are wrong. That kind of thing happens in reality all the time. Grown ups simply can't be bothered to waste their time solving children's social problems. Furthermore, just because we don't see her getting talked to doesn't mean she never gets talked to. Things happen in Equestria when we aren't looking.

Unlikely. Another one of the defining traits of the not-sue(dubbed Y.ram E.us) is that they have to be the bad guys. The whole point of their existence is to support the main characters of the story whenever they need it. To that end, they're eternally chained to the heroes, where they end up as a "get into/out of plot" free card whenever the situation requires it. If you want to spot one easily, ask yourself the following questions:

 

"Does character A show up repeatedly in different episodes/books of character B's given series, and have consistently repetitive, underwhelming, or ineffective schemes?

 

"Does character A have the habit of never being taken seriously in the context of the show? "Is he/she/they the frequent sufferer of run-off or run-on gags? Have they lost all of the respect and intimidation you would assign to a true villain?

 

"Is character B's life the main focus of character A's life? Is character A perpetually drawn into character B's life through happenstance, or vice versa? Would character A's life have any purpose within the realms of the show if character B were to disappear/die?"

 

"Would character A's life be vastly improved, or even perfect, if they had never run into character B?" 

 

"Does character A never quite seem to realize the above, and insist on hanging around character B for petty reasons?(addendum; does character A possess talents or skills that would allow them to have a much more successful life elsewhere, but continuously throw them aside in a vain attempt to "finally get" character B?"

 

If those questions are yes, you're looking Y.ram E.us. Short list includes Malfoy from Harry Potter and Team Rocket from Pokemon, . Major antagonists aren't exempt either; Dr.Eggman from Sonic and Mojo Jojo from the Powerpuff girls would also be included in this category.

[ShadowPirateX 600]

Altough I couldn't take that description seriously, I do agree that she should leave the show. Mostly because I'm sick of seeing that piece of shit.

[rpc8169 228]

I think she should leave, but if she doesnt, she should at least be reformed like Sunset Shimmer and maybe we'll come to like her.

[Marine_Vet_Brony 317]

Diamond Tiara is a good character. It shows that are people in the world that not "evil" but are still a bad person with little or no redeeming character traits.

I think she should leave, but if she doesnt, she should at least be reformed like Sunset Shimmer and maybe we'll come to like her.

 

I don't think she should be reformed. She should stay in to show not everyone can be turn around and sometimes you will have those kind of people in your life and you just need to learn to put up with them.

[MidnightBloom 84]

She's just a foal and i'm pretty sure if only her backstory was to be explored more, a lot of people would be able to relate to her. There's a lot of hope for her

[NavelColt 22,876]

 

Even as a basic character, I've always found Tiara to be milidly deplorable. Not only is she a poster child for the cliche 'stuck-up rich girl' trope, but I always found her to be utterly boring in addition to being obnoxious. Maybe it's because I'm a fan of the Big Bads when it comes to a show about creatures and magic; the reality-warping Draconequui, the evil Changeling queens seeking dominion and the corrupt tyrannical kings who weild darkness. So when it comes to the annoying little schoolyard bullies throwing insults, I'm yawning in my chair because they just don't captivate my interest very well for a show like this. These feelings have obviously grown worse over the course of the seasons, as the situation you've described has dragged out. Same act, same insults, no changes, no redeeming moments, no lasting development.

 

So yes, I agree, I feel her character's purpose of being a local bully acting as an obstacle for the CMC has long run its course, having since become a pointless on-going cycle. It's funny in a cosmic sort of way. The CMC practically outgrew Tiara's childish Blank Flank insults, so the writers just upped the anty by changing absolutely nothing other than her target; instead insulting Scootaloo's possibly crippled wings, just so they could keep her bland, tasteless character on the show.

 

From what we've seen of Hasbro's plans, Tiara is a lost cause; a daddy's little rich girl who's going to be a manipulative, greedy, silver-platter twit for the rest of her days, because that's quite litterally all she knows, all she grew up with, all she's ever going to know.

 

If you want to give the CMC an enemy, move them on as you develop the protagonists, or ditch them and create new adversaries when needed like you do the Mane Six, DHX. Tiara's had no purpose other than to be a bitch to the CMC since Day 1, and we're now going into S5 with that still being her singular purpose as a character. If she had a reedeming moment or two, and actually kept some character development, even a little bit, her still being a bitch towards the CMC by S5 would be tolerable. But this is not the case. She's the same now as she was in S1, only now she punches below the belt with crippled wings comments.

[Ryzu 984]

She's the average bully. What do they have to gain? Laughs. Entertainment. They cause trouble to amuse themselves and pass the time because it's what they enjoy the most. I can see her being reformed in the future, knowing how easy it is to reform these kinds of people.

[Buck Testa 5,503]

I contest that Diamond Tiara could EASILY change for the better and become a more interesting character like Sunset Shimmer.

 

What I would like to see out of her would be the Diabolical good guy trope. Like she uses her brains and schemes to team up with the cmc against a bigger threat. 

 

Also I would love to see her become more Tsundere 

 

 

 

 

[Fractured 2,683]

It seems to me you're too caught up in the terminology to remember the purpose of the terminology. Being a Mary Sue-or the opposite- does not make someone a bad character. Rather, it is a tool for explaining why a bad character is bad. If realizing a character is a Mary Sue, or any other negative characteristic terminology, is what makes you dislike their character, you are completely misusing it.

  

Uh... I don't hate Diamond Tiara. Quite the opposite, in fact.   I like her enough to the point where it kinda hurts that the writers only seem to want to show one side of her. Maybe I shouldn't be so self-entitled, maybe learn to accept the role the writer's have given her, but that's difficult, given I know this show could make her so much better. Everybody wants to see their favorite character's "grow up", right? 

[Andaasonsan 3,205]

Diamond Tiara is a good character. It shows that are people in the world that not "evil" but are still a bad person with little or no redeeming character traits.

 

I don't think she should be reformed. She should stay in to show not everyone can be turn around and sometimes you will have those kind of people in your life and you just need to learn to put up with them.

That reminds me of one of the complaints I often hear about "One Bad Apple" is that Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are never "punished" for their actions.

 

I find that weird because I feel that it is a better message when The CMC and Babs Seed realize the ways they ways they were being jerks and decide to act better. That's basically how life is. You can't change other people, you can only change yourself. 

[Wind Chaser 4,767]

Those reasons stated in OP are exactly why I want Snips and Snails removed from the show. They too were originally supposed to be one-shot characters, are the manifestation of an archetype, and IMO there is no development potential in them, they're just there to act stupid and mess things up. They are also patently sexist, which goes against the inclusive nature of the show and time after time walks it right back into the misandry debate.

 

DT, however, could have some development potential if the writers were to see it in her. She could become a well-rounded and developed character if they developed an episode that aimed at her flaws and entangled her in an incident where her spoiled, rich attitudes got her stuck in some kind of situation that would force her to rethink how she acted, sort of like how "For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils" took aim at the similar attention-horsing flaw in Sweetie Belle's character.

 

I agree in saying that Diamond Tiara cannot continue on this show in her current state. What is needed is for her to be believably forced to evaluate her own life and become reformed. It worked for Sunset Shimmer, it can work for her.

[Jeric 46,834]

 

 

Um... Dude, that's exactly what bullies do. They incessantly tease you about one thing, and when that stops bothering you, they move on to something else. I do not see what your problem is with this.

 

Perhaps it is because the show is best when it takes a trope and plays with it from unexpected angles. When the show does this, it usually hits the ball out of the park (Rarity and Dash have moments that perfectly illustrate this concept). This is I think why Shimmer and CD have issues with DT's current portrayal. Yes she drives the plot forward, but CD expects more and Shimmer wants actual character development. Personally, DT is a missed opportunity. You have a spoiled rich girl as an antagonist, but a supposedly half way decent parent. That alone is something that could be used as a springboard for a decent story.

[Sunny Fox 5,929]

So a character doesn't have fully fleshed out motivations and only exists to fulfill a role or to cause conflict with the heroes? Well then, toss them out. Also toss out Sauron from "Lord of the Rings", while we're at it. He's like this big, bad evil thing that wants the ring to, you guessed it, take over the world.

 

Hell, Sombra's gone, too. Oh, and get rid of every bully in every Stephen King miniseries adaptation ever. And then let's toss out...

 

You see my point. Whether you like DT or not, whether she's a flat character or not, that's no reason to suggest removing her from the show. She fills a role. I would love her to get more development, but let's face it, that's not what she exists for. She exists to be the thorn in the CMC's collective side.

 

And why not suggest removing Silver Spoon, too? She does EVEN LESS as a character, basically being the yes filly to DT. The one and only sign of independent thought she has ever shown was to applaud Granny Smith's story in "Family Appreciation Day". At least DT leads and comes up with ideas and plans, even if they are all geared towards causing misery for the CMC. She also evidently has a great love and appreciation of her father, and there are hints that she is terrified of her mother ("One Bad Apple"). She also fangirls adorably over Princess Twilight (granted, only AFTER she became a princess, but still, she isn't totally self absorbed) She also praised Pinkie for doing her cuteceanera, despite having no ulterior motive to do so.

 

Is she nice? No. Does she get a free pass for making fun of Scootaloo's lack of flying ability? Of course not. That was contemptible. But none of this makes me for one second agree she should be removed from the show.

[Heart Beat 34]

 

Of course, I don't want her to leave, but it seems like the best option at the time. I'd appreciate any thoughts you guys have on this idea.

 

(Did I do this right? The quoting thingamJig? We shall see)

 

Anyway, yeah I see what your saying, but I think diamond tiara gives the cmc situations kids in our world often face. Like, she is the typical kid at school who is "popular" and stides for popularity and by doing so is a bit of..... yeah. The way the CMC deal with her provides kids and in a way, us bronies, a certain sympathy? No not the right word... Like, for children they are given ways to deal with their situations... Did that make sense?

 

But, I think diamond tiara should appear less. It kinda seems like she's in every cmc episode, and gosh it's soooooooooo annoying.

[Lucky Star 971]

I don't want her to be taken off the show, I do think that she could use some character development.

I really would like to see some redemption from her, like get bullied and see the error of her ways.

a good taste of her own medicine. 

[Fractured 2,683]

So a character doesn't have fully fleshed out motivations and only exists to fulfill a role or to cause conflict with the heroes? Well then, toss them out. Also toss out Sauron from "Lord of the Rings", while we're at it. He's like this big, bad evil thing that wants the ring to, you guessed it, take over the world.

 

Hell, Sombra's gone, too. Oh, and get rid of every bully in every Stephen King miniseries adaptation ever. And then let's toss out...

 

You see my point. Whether you like DT or not, whether she's a flat character or not, that's no reason to suggest removing her from the show. She fills a role. I would love her to get more development, but let's face it, that's not what she exists for. She exists to be the thorn in the CMC's collective side.

 

And why not suggest removing Silver Spoon, too? She does EVEN LESS as a character, basically being the yes filly to DT. The one and only sign of independent thought she has ever shown was to applaud Granny Smith's story in "Family Appreciation Day". At least DT leads and comes up with ideas and plans, even if they are all geared towards causing misery for the CMC. She also evidently has a great love and appreciation of her father, and there are hints that she is terrified of her mother ("One Bad Apple"). She also fangirls adorably over Princess Twilight (granted, only AFTER she became a princess, but still, she isn't totally self absorbed) She also praised Pinkie for doing her cuteceanera, despite having no ulterior motive to do so.

 

Is she nice? No. Does she get a free pass for making fun of Scootaloo's lack of flying ability? Of course not. That was contemptible. But none of this makes me for one second agree she should be removed from the show.

Motivation is really key here. You need something that's so compelling that you'd risk punishment for it, otherwise your character is left suffering a string of unending torments with no clear goal. That makes them less of a believable villain and more of somebody's sick cosmic joke. Sombra and Sauron both wanted the power the Crystal Heart and The Ring could give them, which makes it perfectly clear why they're villains.

 

...But this is making it sound like I hate her. Again. I don't. I feel FIM has set itself up to such a standard of realism that there's no reason she should still be so one-note after four or so episodes when 90% of the background cast, villains and otherwise, have been fully fleshed out in one or two. It just feels like they're consistently cheating her.

 

And I don't have much of an issue with Silverspoon. She's really a blank sheet right now, so there's no reason to remove her when she still has an entire personality to create. There's not really a reason to remove any character, though... unless it gets to a point where you're endlessly throwing that character into a series of different scenarios without them actually changing(Beating a dead horse, as it were). That works great with Looney Tunes, but it's not really something you should want in any show that's trying to be realistic. Imagine if The Last Airbender had a plot focusing on Zuko buying a carton of eggs so he could toss them at the Avatar when he flew by, then another one where he puts talcum powder in his shoes, etc. That's where I imagine this going if they don't focus on Diamond Tiara more, and i'm not a fan of the idea.

 

edit: realized the folly in blaming a slice-of-life show for having static characters. Ignore everything in the last paragraph about removing characters.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Shimmer5000

[Marine_Vet_Brony 317]

That reminds me of one of the complaints I often hear about "One Bad Apple" is that Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are never "punished" for their actions.

 

I find that weird because I feel that it is a better message when The CMC and Babs Seed realize the ways they ways they were being jerks and decide to act better. That's basically how life is. You can't change other people, you can only change yourself. 

 

I think kids need to learn that life isn't fair and those that should be punish are never are.