Why I Hate For Whom Sweetie Belle Toils

[Arctofire 225]

Okay, well as you can see from the title, I hate this episode. I seriously thought that Mr Enter was going to fail this episode as it feels like an Animated Atrocity. But it got 5 stars, and everybody seems to LOVE this episode. Now if you like this episode, then good for you. Its much easier to love something than to hate something and nearly everybody else seems to agree with you. But I want to get my voice heard, and I believe it to be the shows most unpleasant, inappropriate, and harsh episode EVER. You wonder why, well lets break it down.

 

The thing that I hate most about this episode is that it tries to do the Sweet and Elite trick (a great episode) by seeing our protagonist doing something bad but seeing their thought process so their still very likable. The only problem here is that Sweetie Belle's actions are SO awful, lacking of guilt, and filled with self centered greed that you cannot see her as still likable. I'm on Rarity's side for all of this episode, Sweetie Belle's attacks against her lack any logic and are borderline psychotic, but Rarity still acts like a warm, kind, and motherly figure, as much as Sweetie Belle doesn't deserve it.

 

Basically Rarity delays her entire deadline just to make Sweetie Belle happy, and makes her some beautiful costumes which are incredibly high quality and people praise. But Sweetie Belle, who I now know to have some sort of mental illness, hates Rarity for it. Why, because it outshined her performance. So even though Rarity delayed her many deadlines to give her some great costumes, Sweetie Belle insults and shouts at her for it, and then rips up her dress that she spent weeks working on. Seriously, I'm not being over the top here, Sweetie Belle is acting insane, not joking. 

 

So then we get some INCREDIBLY disturbing and dark images here of Rarity suffering from depression and rotting away, THIS IS SUPPOSE TO BE A SHOW FOR LITTLE GIRLS. Now before you say that one of the shows most beautiful episodes: Lesson Zero, was dark then I need to explain it. In that episode, we saw Twilight's thought process, it was very relatable, and Twilight's insane look and Strong's acting was just over the top enough that it wasn't too dark for a kids show. Even though it was one of the shows darker episodes it managed to find a balance to still tell the story at its fullest but to do it in a way that would not be inappropriate for children. 

 

In this episode, we see a very realistic representation of depression and unlike in Lesson Zero (in which OCD was portrayed very realistically too but done very well). It is told in such a way that make it unpleasant, as there is no comedy to make it seem a tad silly like in Lesson Zero, and the image of Rarity having cobwebs growing in her mane and house is just HORRENDOUS. Seriously who thought that this would be a great idea to put in a show for children, its like something out of the Exorcist.

 

So then the story is finished and Luna comes in and bla, bla, bla. I think I've told you why I dislike this episode. But feel free to defend it and give me reasons why it is good as a lot of people seem to like it. This is just my opinion and I will love and tolerate anyone who does like this episode.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Arctofire

[Andaasonsan 3,205]

Sweetie Belle isn't insane, she's just incredibly immature. She's a young girl, and while her actions are not justified they're certainly relatable. That's kind of the whole point.

 

The story is supposed to be like a Christmas Carol with Sweetie Belle in the place of Ebenezer Scrooge and Luna as Marley's ghost. Her actions are supposed to be detestable which is why we need Luna to intervene and show her what will happen if she continues down this path.

 

And I think you're seriously underestating children if you think they can't handle some cobwebs and Rarity going crazy. There have been things much more scary in this show like the Changelings.

[Everleaf 541]

Sweetie Belle as mentioned is still at a young age and she has a lot to learn and mature

 

at this age I suppose it is a lack of full understanding

 

Sweetiebelle's actions come out quite relatable to many of her same age as this can be quite common!

 

and also as mentioned the story was lightly (okay quite highly) based off of the story of A Christmas Carol

 

I agree what Sweetiebelle did was very selfish of her and I do NOT support them who do such thing, but I suppose some children do make such mistakes,

 

 

yes I agree that the episode DID have flaws though I will say it is a very relatable episode for some and it came out to be pretty well written!

Edited December 22, 2014 by Everleaf

[Treble Bolt 1,122]

Have to agree with @Andaasonsan on Sweetie's behaviour and attitude. She is a child, and developmentally speaking, she is acting and thinking exactly how most 5-8 year old children think. They lack the ability to put themselves in other peoples' shoes and abstract thought (because they are still growing and maturing, it's normal). Her actions are cruel and selfish because she is only looking at her needs, and not thinking of anyone else's feelings/deadlines/lives. Children in that age range think the world revolves around them (in a sense. I'm not saying ALL kids are like that; in fact most siblings groups {closer in age, Rarity and Sweetie Belle do not count in this} are more considerate because they are not the lone child in the household and attention from parents have to be spread out, which is actually beneficial to the social development of those children). However due to the age difference between Sweetie Belle and Rarity, I can safely assume that Sweetie Belle was treated like an only child, due to the fact that by the time she was school aged, Rarity was old enough to have a strong sense of independence and thus was not competing for parental attention (it's like the difference between a 17 year old and their 5 year old sibling).

It is very much IN CHARACTER for a child character like Sweetie Belle, and in fact, given the age differences between Rarity and Sweetie, this actually drives a great deal of Sweetie Belle's character overall. She is jealous of what her old sister can accomplish, regardless of the fact that Rarity is an adult and she is not. Having such a wide age range difference between siblings can create bitterness and jealousy upon the younger one. Add that with a child's natural outlook upon life and this situation in the episode is not only believable, but has happened in the real world to some degree (minus the magical stuff and whatnot).

On top of that, Sweetie Belle's over the top reaction at the realization of the consequences of her actions are also extremely child-like. Children are more prone to jump to the extremes of situations than adults are. Sweetie Belle does care about her sister, was too blind sighted to see what her actions were doing. When Luna revealed what could happen, Sweetie's mind broke down, thinking that she had ruined Rarity's life. She's not stupid. She knows her sister's desires and ambitions, and that's why she looks up to Rarity so much. To see the potential of that crumbling away would terrify any child. It's a harsh wake-up call to Sweetie Belle, yes, but necessary to drive home the importance of her relationship with her sister.

There is a lot going on behind the creation of most episodes, and although I think this episode is more a rehash of Scootaloo and Luna's episode, it takes sibling bonds to a very deep level, and is actually beneficial that children see this episode. It has a lot more lessons than "Sleepless in Ponyville" and is actually relatable to any child with siblings.

To put yourself in another person's shoes is difficult, at any age.

To put aside your selfishness is difficult for anyone, especially children

To relate to siblings with large age gaps is hard and can lead to jealousy and bitterness if good communication does not happen. (the whole birthday party incident was due to the lack of communication and hence creating the whole misunderstanding). Rarity tried to do this, being so kind to her sister, because she loves her. However, ultimately she did not try to get out Sweetie Belle what her problem was and thus was left in the dark, no matter how good her intentions were.

 

I don't applaud it as the best episode of Season 4 (although I would give it 5 stars), although DHX knows children, knows the difficulty of child and sibling relationships, and understands the difficulties of growing up. This episode shows that, in spectacular ways. Knowing how the child mind works will help you understand a deep episode like this one.

Now I am not trying to applaud Sweetie Belle's actions and thoughts, because I actually hate children who give in to their selfish natures at the cost of others and never learn from it. But the thing is, we all go through this, and have gone through this growing up, siblings or not. Luckily and gratefully, Sweetie Belle learned some very valuable lessons from this, and will continue to grow into a fine, well rounded, adult character.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Treble Bolt

[Arctofire 225]

Okay I really do see your point. When you put in that perspective I think that maybe I was a little harsh and maybe didn't understand the episode very well. But Sisterhooves Social did this better I think, and also that I certainly didn't get the Ebeneezer Scooge feel to Sweetie Belle because nobody apart from Luna points this out to her. In a Christmas Carol (Though I find the book to be very hypercritical if you compare it to Christmas today) people constantly referenced that Scooge was a jerk. Now with Sweetie Belle nobody does this. I think I would have understood what it was trying to do a lot better if the other CMC members told each other how selfish she was being.

 

Also the episode started out really nicely, with Rarity praising Sweetie Belle, and I thought it was going to be an episode about Sweetie Belle growing up or something. I was completely unaware for what I was in for, and I think that shock value hit me hard.

 

Also for the you don't give kids enough respect and the Changelings were much darker. I do give kids respect and I thought Lesson Zero was one of the shows best episodes. As for the Changelings and other villains like Sombra and Tirek its a different kind of dark. One is a very fantastical sort of dark (something the show needs much more of and I love every second of it), with action scenes and ponies plotting to take over the world, and one is a realistic sort of dark. Now I'm fine with that as I feel that the shows best episodes are mature to an extent with the topics they try to handle. In fact I love most of the dark stuff in this show. It was just some of the imagery in this episode which surprised me, and maybe I wasn't giving kids enough credit. Its just if I was a 6 year old girl I would've had nightmares after seeing this. But that's just me, and it isn't as dark as say the Powerpuff Girls which was VERY scary at times.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Arctofire

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

It depends on the child, I think. I watched Watership Down at a young age (after reading the book) and was completely unfazed by it; however, a schoolfriend of mine watched Mickey's Christmas Carol and wept buckets and was very distressed by it.

 

I think that this is a good episode, showing a child (Sweetie Belle) how their selfish actions can impact upon others. I think that a lot of people forget that Sweetie Belle is still a child, despite her acting like one and looking like one, and that is why some people find it difficult to understand her motives in this episode. She's basically on the level of a child who asks for an expensive present for Christmas and throws a fit when told no, not understanding that her parents can't afford it, and instead thinking that they're just being meanies.

[Shanks 10,811]

Sweetie Bell's motivations were entirely consistent with her character in that episode, she has the most contentious relationship with her sister (or sister like figure if you include Scootaloo) of the CMC and it is that way for many reasons but the main one seems to be that Sweetie Belle simply feels like Rarity dosen't understand her and in many cases she is in fact right but to Rarity's credit she does try though in some cases can screw up. Of course this wasn't one of those times but due in part to this as well as Sweetie Belles general immaturity Sweetie Belle took out her frustrations with the audience paying more attention to the dresses Rarity made for her play instead of the actual play itself.

 

What happened wasn't Rarity's fault as she was only trying to help and Sweetie Belles actions were selfish but were again entirely consistent with her character for the reasons I just described. One of the things I like about this episode is that in a lot of Rarity and Sweetie Belle episodes it is a bit more obvious when Rarity is in the wrong (Sweetie Belle has been in some of those episodes too but it again dosen't tend to be as obvious) but in this episode we get to see Sweetie Belle clearly in the wrong yet with alleged wrong Rarity did only being perceived as opposed to her actually doing something wrong.

 

Misunderstandings like this tend to happen all the time among family and in this we get to see another one of Sweetie Belles motivations for wanting Rarity to understand her being that she right or wrong sometimes feels overshadowed by her which is very common among younger siblings.And also much much scarier things happened in the show like The Changelings and of course Tirek, G1 Tirek was dark and menacing but the G4 version is really something else.

[Arctofire 225]

Okay don't think I don't appreciate episodes like Twilight's Kingdom and other AWESOME episodes. Its just that there are many types of darkness, and this was one I felt was inappropriate.

[Sugar Pea 2,681]

Keep in mind, Sweetie Belle is a child who has yet to mature, therefore will throw tantrums and act like a child unlike her older and more mature sister. Those images were necessary to show what could happen if Sweetie Belle were to go through with her plan to sabotage her sister.
Children will be schemey. I should know, cause I was a kid myself at one point. I believe this is over analyzing just a tad. The relationship between Rarity and Sweetie has always been on the rocks, and not to mention this episode is supposed to show that. Sweetie Belle didn't know any better, and with the help of Luna did she realize that she was mad at her sister for all the wrong reasons, and realized her actions against Rarity were uncalled for. I believe Luna also did this because she understands sisterly love and rivalry to go with, which also expands why I love Luna as a character. So if it wasn't for her, Rarity would be ruined and Sweetie Belle would be guilty. Anyways, yeah, in my opinion on the account of "selfishness", both sisters have been guilty of this in a couple of episodes. So i'm not sure why it must be pin pointed on one sister and not the other. 

The episode was kind "eh...", but wasn't very bad in my opinion.

:comeatus:

Edited December 22, 2014 by teacup-bunnies23

[sweetolebob18 724]

Arctofire    I am going to guess that you are an only child.  I grew up with 3 younger sisters & 1 younger brother & this is exactly the way siblings SOMETIMES behave.  (Technical term "sibling rivalry").  They get jealous (I remember the Smothers Brothers old "Mom always liked you best" routine) & sometimes act out these feelings.  They feel "whatever I do, it isn't good enough, they are better & they get EVERYTHING & I get nothing.  I hate them"

 

Luna showed SB that her sister wasn't trying to hurt her & that her (SB) actions had serious consequences.  (By the way, Luna cheated.  That collapse was from "Suited For Success").  SB repented & tried very hard to undo the harm she did.  I think this was the message for kids, that bad actions have bad consequences & you should think before acting out.

 

This episode isn't among my favorites, but it is one of the best Rarity episodes.

[Arctofire 225]

Actually I'm not an only child, in fact I'm a teenager, and I grow up with 2 sisters. I loved Sisterhooves Social a lot, and I seem to be quite unpopular for disliking this episode, although you guys had some good points about how it was suppose to be an homage to Christmas Carol which I didn't quite get. But even if you think its good it is not one of the best Rarity episodes, better ones include:

 

Suited for Success

Sweet and Elite

Rarity takes Manehatten

The Dog and Pony show

Sisterhooves Social

 

Rarity has never had a bad episode, so saying one is the best is saying a lot. Also this was a Sweetie Belle episode not a Rarity episode.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Arctofire

[The Second Opinion 269]

I wasn't too fond of the direction they took Sweetie Belle here myself. Same as this thread, most of the people who commented on my review plead immaturity in her defense, but I dunno. Her behavior in Sisterhooves Social was immature. This time around, it just genuinely didn't seem to be coming from the same character. (And it didn't help that the episode made up stuff like the 5th birthday party to convince us, which was almost a blatant contradiction of their relationship as seen so far.) Of course, I also thought Luna kind of saved the episode, but I already went over that in the review here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDhjV876U_c  

(Warning: It was my first with Channel Frederator, so it's definitely a little wordy and not structured especially well.) 

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

 

 

THIS IS SUPPOSE TO BE A SHOW FOR LITTLE GIRLS.

 

No it isn't. It's for everyone.

And I've see darker crap than that in all sorts of family entertainment (hello, Disney).

 

But, yeah Sweetie did a terrible thing.

But she's apparently been holding a bit of a grudge towards her sister for a LONG time, and erroneously believed Rarity was trying to hurt her feelings and outshine her on purpose. Sweetie didn't block out the moon, but she could still hurt those who are close to her with her jealousy and bitterness.

That's why Luna came in and slapped her with some tough love. She's been there and done that.

[Arctofire 225]

Okay, but it needs to be appropriate for all ages.

 

You know what just forget it, that scene was fine. But I still don't like the episode.

[Sunny Shimmer 259]

I see your point. Having CMC play off of sweetie belle's selfish actions can seem out of character. Children usually care about themselves most of the time and it is difficult for them to get past that, They just haven't hit that point of mature yet but we beat the point of her actions to death already.

 

I am a guy but I remember some of my nightmares as a young child being far more scary and dark then those scenes. Some dealt with stuff that was too mature for me to understand at the time and didn't fully understand them until I grew older.

 

Does it make it right? No and Yes. It spells out a point that most children will understand by seeing the actual damage their choice made and show them that the world is much bigger and scarier and complex than they understood before. It also shows them that it is better not to cause problems rather than trying to say sorry for it and it doesn't fix anything. It is a hard and harsh lesson but it is one that children should learn regardless. They may have hit that line of acceptance but it could have been more mature.

 

The point of rarity's depression within the dream was mild. Look at it, She just lost all respect from her clients and ran out of business by the constant shame. She did go crazy but they didn't go much further to where it was actually going to lead to. Left that little bit out for obvious reasons.

 

I have seen cartoons for little kids that actually take it that extra step where death/suicide is involved within the story and able to be shown in a more mild manner and those cartoons were made for children. Not teenage years, young.

 

They actually didn't go as far as most cartoons would/used to go.

Edited December 24, 2014 by RainbowDarth

[ponytheorist 181]

One thing that I see come up here repeatedly, is that Sweetie Bell is still a child. I'm thinking you're really underestimating her. In this episode, we see that she wrote a play. A PLAY! And not even a simple one, but one with very complex words and all that. I don't even think I would be able to make something like that.

 

No, I think he CMC are not around 8 years, but around 16-17. Their episodes also seem to suggest that. Sweetie Belle trying to fit in with the school in the episode ''Twilight Time'' Scootaloos desire to not find certain things scary, as seen in ''Sleepless In Ponyville'' and more episodes. And even if they weren't this age, Sweetie Belle is way smarter then someone of 8 years old if she can make a whole play by herself

 

For someone who's already on that level of thinking Sweetie Belle is, acting like that is VERY out of character. She knows better. And to top it of, she even goes and ruins a very important thing from Rarity. That's not something anybody with the mind of an 8 year old would do.

 

And that this episode was trying to imitate ''A Christmas Carol'' seems a little far fetched to me. Sure, Sweetie Belle made some wrong choices, but she's not a bad person like Scrootch is. Even more, the only thing to hint that this was some kind of parody of A christmas Carol, were the flashbacks. Nothing more. The episode wasn't about a holliday, wasn't about Sweetie Belle redemtioning herself, nothing. 

 

I personally enjoyed this episode, mainly because I like to see when certain characters grow out of certain behavior, but that's just personal preference. I see why you would have a problem with this episode.

[Stellafera 3,835]

One thing that I see come up here repeatedly, is that Sweetie Bell is still a child. I'm thinking you're really underestimating her. In this episode, we see that she wrote a play. A PLAY! And not even a simple one, but one with very complex words and all that. I don't even think I would be able to make something like that.

 

No, I think he CMC are not around 8 years, but around 16-17. Their episodes also seem to suggest that. Sweetie Belle trying to fit in with the school in the episode ''Twilight Time'' Scootaloos desire to not find certain things scary, as seen in ''Sleepless In Ponyville'' and more episodes. And even if they weren't this age, Sweetie Belle is way smarter then someone of 8 years old if she can make a whole play by herself

 

Sweetie Belle: Forsooth and anon, I cometh forthwith and posthaste with glad tidings, miladies.

 

I highly doubt that. 14 I can believe as the maximum age, but from my writings in middle school, it is absolutely plausible for the CMC to be around age 10-13. Considering how Sweetie Belle seems to try to adopt the mannerisms of her eloquent sister, it seems rational to me that she would sound like she swallowed a shakespearean thesaurus. 

 

Sweetie Belle's behavior this episode would be much less excusable if she were 16. Rarity's too from Sisterhooves Social, since 16-17 is plenty good enough to trust someone to help around with work. The height difference also makes it pretty unlikely to me; nobody grows that much in 3ish years.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Stellafera

[Treble Bolt 1,122]

@Arctofire I give kids a lot of credit.

 

 

There is a lot going on behind the creation of most episodes, and although I think this episode is more a rehash of Scootaloo and Luna's episode, it takes sibling bonds to a very deep level, and is actually beneficial that children see this episode. It has a lot more lessons than "Sleepless in Ponyville" and is actually relatable to any child with siblings.

I have worked with kids for a living for a few years, and I have a great deal of child development background. I don't look down upon kids, and see them as having far more potential and understanding than most adults.

 

@ponytheorist You know, children are just as concerned with peer pressure at age 4 as they are at age 17? Also, in the context of what we heard from Sweetie's play, it is a child's play. Using big words out of context and with no bearing or depth is not something a 17 year does. Children write plays all the time, mind you they don't often write them down (see the imaginary play of 3 year olds and immense creativity that can be seen just from watching them play).  Also, 5-10 year old children can be outright crueler than adults fighting in a war. Girls can hold bitterness for a very long time, and it can really blow up in horrendous ways. I once saw a 7 year old attempt to drown her 3 year old sister because her mother gave her sister a new shirt but not her (I was not the only adult on the premise and that was quite an ordeal, and sadly that girl was NOT sorry for trying to kill her sister, at least until she understood the consequences of death). That situation is not as rare as you think. Siblings can be very VERY cruel to one another. A 17 year old would not try to wreck their older siblings ENTIRE LIVELIHOOD. A 17 year old would have abstract thought, and would be able to know beforehand the consequences of their actions, a child between 5-8 would not.  Children want to be pleasing to those they look up to. Scootaloo was trying to be "cool" in front of Rainbow Dash. Part of being "cool" is to be more grown up than they actually are, hence why Scootaloo was trying to be fearless. I see this a lot at childrens' summer camps. It causes a lot of problems due the ensuing recklessness, especially with boys. This behaviour is also very common among 5-13 year olds, and not very common at all in girls by the time they are teenagers. Scootaloo is a girl, and wouldn't try being doing what she did if she was 17, but at age 8, it's not only likely, but very much expected because of how she looks up to Rainbow Dash.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Treble Bolt

[Arctofire 225]

No, I think he CMC are not around 8 years, but around 16-17.

 

The CMC are not aged 16-17. That's just plain stupid. In my opinion their around 10-13.

 

Also for that kid trying to drown her 3 year old sister for getting a new shirt IS PSYCHOTIC. I hope that child got into serious, serious, trouble or even went to have therapy sessions, or I just hope it was taken seriously. Also I don't look down on kids, I will say again that I am one (I'm 13). I agree that younger kids are intelligent and have understanding. But I considered the relationship between my siblings to be quite harsh compared the other peoples siblings. The drowning thing I feel is a rare occurrence.

 

Although this is a brony/pegasister forum and I will continue talking about the episode. Yes again I see your point but again I think it could have been more gentle. I look forward to the show exploring stuff like Apple Jack's parents and other dark topics, but this was very dark, or at least presented in a very dark way. I'm just glad they didn't decide to do the drowning thing in the show, because I think that more people might have been angry about that .

 

Another thing is is that, again. I wasn't prepared for how harsh this episode was going to be from the start, as it started out nicely.

 

Also I loved Sleepless in Ponyville, the best episode of Season 3 in my book.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Arctofire

[Sazama Ichida 2,352]

I didn't believe for a second that Rarity was just trying to make Sweetie Belle look bad. I knew from the start that she was only trying to help. Anyone who can't see that Rarity is generous is blind.

[Arctofire 225]

This post originally contained about how I hate this episode a little less, but it is and probably always will be my least favorite episode of the show. You keep saying that its good and I wanted to somewhat agree or end this argument that neither of us are ever going to win, but I stand by that For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils is the most unpleasant episode of the show.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Arctofire

[ponytheorist 181]

Okay, I'm wrong about their ages. I can kinda see that now. Still, I think Sweetie Belle is way further in thinking then a lot of people think here.

 

And that child that tried to kill her own sister, she is bound to grow up as a serial killer

[Vendi 407]

you must not know what it's like to be/have a younger sibling...

also... THEY WERE AIMING FOR US TO LIKE SWEETIE BELLE IN THIS EPISODE!!!!?!?! because they miserably failed. at least until the part when sweetie belle was trying to help at the end. -_-

[Tetrakemy 221]

Looks like some pony here has never had a little sister or been a little girl themselves. 

 

What sweetie Belle did was very typical for what a young girl would do under those circumstances. 

[Uncle Apples 296]

It depends on the child, I think. I watched Watership Down at a young age (after reading the book) and was completely unfazed by it; however, a schoolfriend of mine watched Mickey's Christmas Carol and wept buckets and was very distressed by it.

 

I think that this is a good episode, showing a child (Sweetie Belle) how their selfish actions can impact upon others. I think that a lot of people forget that Sweetie Belle is still a child, despite her acting like one and looking like one, and that is why some people find it difficult to understand her motives in this episode. She's basically on the level of a child who asks for an expensive present for Christmas and throws a fit when told no, not understanding that her parents can't afford it, and instead thinking that they're just being meanies.

Watership Down scarred me for life T_T But yeah, Sweetie is just a kid. Kids are selfish. But she's still adorable <3 ʕ•͡ɛ•͡ʼʼʔ