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My Problem With G4 Tirek


Arctofire

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Okay.

 

So, nearly everyone on this forum loved Twilight's Kingdom, and I agree, it's an episode of pure gold, and the way they wrapped up Discord's transition from hero to anti hero was fantastic, as well as how they wrapped up season 4. Everything matched up and rhymed, and it was a predictable end, but in a really good way, it was the ending we all wanted.

 

Now despite the sheer greatness of this episode, I personally have a problem with it. I know for many people Tirek is their favorite villain, and it's true, there is a lot to like about him. I loved how he started out as a homage to The Emperor from Star Wars. It really fit's his character from G1, and he came of as threatening and intelligent. He also has the same attitude to love and friendship that he has, and he has a bitter hatred for ponies after what he feels they did to a once mighty foe, and imprisoning him by repressing his true ideals .

 

However, there were problems I had with him. For starters, he got less and less scary as he got larger, because he became more in the sunlight and lost that sense of mysticism. For me, the moment the hood went off, I lost interest. When he was doing the magic draining thing to start off with I thought it was pretty badass (although there is something I will discuss later,) but the more he did it, the less it was cool. For a villain like Tirek, less is more. I found his voice later on to become comical, and he's loud shouts didn't help either.

 

Now one more gripe I have with him is that I don't feel this is quite Tirek. If you take superhero villains for example, mostly Batman, you will see that while there are small changes to the characters here and there, most good incarnations will keep the core concept and character the same. That is unless it's the Penquin in Batman Returns. Here I feel they deprived so far from the source material that it was almost insulting. His character is different, his power is different, his motivation is different, and his approach to many situations is different. Now I will say that Scorpan being his brother I felt was a good change, and the medallion was really cool, but changing his power like that I thought was unacceptable. I could have accepted it if they had kept his personality the same, and I felt they were going that route for his first couple of scenes, but I was proven wrong.

 

Feel free to defend him, everyone's in title to their opinion of course. But for me, they only got ONE shot at bringing in my opinion the best thing about pre G4 into the generation everyone likes and remembers, and I feel they didn't quite hit the mark.

 

Sorry if this is more appropriate for a blog, but I like replies and I want different points of views. After all, there must be something to like about this character if so many people love him.

Edited by Arctofire
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Tirek isn't my favorite villain by far, and that's because he follows a similar process that Chrysalis did; they're both parasites who need other creatures' powers in order to be strong, rather than having a very high natural strength that must be overcome. I'm not a fan of that trope, thus I naturally have bias against villains like that. This is opposed to villains like Discord who are just naturally potent, and need to be overcome in a creative way.

 

He was a great character and was amazing to watch, he fit the finale like a glove, really did. And for that reason, my hype brought him high up on my villains meter for a good months or two following the finale. But looking back on the finale now, I'm not quite the fan I had been. This happened for me with Sombra as well. I got a natural high from hype, that didn't last.

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Tirek may have been a small step up from Chrysalis, but he was no Sombra, who's greatest strength was that he had no character and was instead a Sauron-like entity. 

 

Tirek was ultimately unable to think his actual plan through beyond the concept of simply of gaining magic. Lord knows had McCarthy actually written him with a brain, something that she almost never does with her villains, Twilight (and possibly the mane five as well) wouldn't be alive right now because Tirek would have done the most logical thing and decimated all of them on the spot the very second she gave up her power.  

 

He was only vengeful when the plot needed him to be, given that he sent the other three alicorns to Tartarus for basically nothing, but Twilight could apparently just go and have a lengthy death battle with him and be allowed to walk away afterward.  

 

Yep, that's Twilight's Kingdom and it's oh-so-spectacular writing for you.  >_>

Edited by Cleverclover
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Lord knows had McCarthy actually written him with a brain, something that she almost never does with her villains, Twilight (and possibly the mane five as well) wouldn't be alive right now because Tirek would have done the most logical thing and decimated all of them on the spot the very second she made the decision to give up her power.

Heh, even if he just had to stick to his word (and we know he's a liar) he could have actually captured Twilight the moment he lets her friends go. There was nothing at all in the agreement about letting her go! And he already sent the other powerless princesses to Tartarus previously, so there's no excuse for him not to do something about Twilight.

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Tirek was a decent powerhouse villian but the problem I have with him is he didn't have any established goals beyond a power grab. Which makes him pretty much just like his G1 counterpart.

 

So far, Chrysalis seemed to be the only one with a purpose for future growth.

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He was cool when he was weak and manipulative and looked like a monkey. When he grew big, my enthusiasm for him shrunk. He lost that ancient, menacing voice and demeanor and became a generic boss. I wish he hadn't grown bigger when he got magic.

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Tirek was a decent powerhouse villian but the problem I have with him is he didn't have any established goals beyond a power grab. Which makes him pretty much just like his G1 counterpart.

 

So far, Chrysalis seemed to be the only one with a purpose for future growth.

You could argue that Discord's entire lack of a real purpose was his purpose thanks to both is chaotic powers and reign. Once things were chaotic he had what he wanted and it would just stay chaotic if he had his way. It's in his nature to be whimsical rather than be working toward a goal.

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You could argue that Discord's entire lack of a real purpose was his purpose thanks to both is chaotic powers and reign. Once things were chaotic he had what he wanted and it would just stay chaotic if he had his way. It's in his nature to be whimsical rather than be working toward a goal.

 

But Discord is Discord, and Discord is special because he's the master of chaos. However, with the other villains, not having a plan is a minus.

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Tirek isn't my favorite villain by far, and that's because he follows a similar process that Chrysalis did; they're both parasites who need other creatures' powers in order to be strong, rather than having a very high natural strength that must be overcome. I'm not a fan of that trope, thus I naturally have bias against villains like that. This is opposed to villains like Discord who are just naturally potent, and need to be overcome in a creative way.

 

He was a great character and was amazing to watch, he fit the finale like a glove, really did. And for that reason, my hype brought him high up on my villains meter for a good months or two following the finale. But looking back on the finale now, I'm not quite the fan I had been. This happened for me with Sombra as well. I got a natural high from hype, that didn't last.

 

You know I feel exactly the same way. I use to think Tirek was the greatest villain of all time, but now that I observed it and learnt how the character is suppose to behave, I like him a lot less.

 

The cloaked monkey Tirek was actually very in line with the original one, dark and menacing, in the shadows. He just became a big body builder with a laughable voice. If they had kept with the monkey one, just make him red, so that he looks like Tirek.

 

I agree that Tirek got less and less scary as he absorbed the ponies' magic. But do you think a battle against his original form would have been interesting?

 

It would have probably been similar to the amazing and well choreographed fight seen from Princess Twilight Sparkle.

Edited by Arctofire
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I do agree with him being less creepy as he got bigger, his skeletal old body was something that I legitimately found kind of creepy when he began draining all the ponies at that opera or whatever that stage show was and his John DiMaggio sounding voice when he got bigger was something I found more hilarious than intimidating.

 

But, I also agree that without all of that magic it wouldn't have been much of a struggle on Twiilight's part.

 

That's why I wish there was some kind of middle ground, like him being able to keep his weakened form while using powerful magic, or having his larger form with a different, more gravelly voice.

 

Aside from voice and physical appearance, I did find it pretty disappointing that he had nearly unlimited potential with Discord's chaos magic, yet had almost no imagination when it came to utilizing it-since all he did was trap Twilight's friends in magical bubbles.

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Lord knows had McCarthy actually written him with a brain, something that she almost never does with her villains, Twilight (and possibly the mane five as well) wouldn't be alive right now because Tirek would have done the most logical thing and decimated all of them on the spot the very second she gave up her power.  

 

Or, you know, we could realize that this show has a certain rating and that we actually need the characters to live through what happens to them and thereby making a plan that involves decimation of any sort an impossibility.

 

There's also a reason that the villain overestimating their own capabilities and thinking themselves as having won already is a trope. When Twilight had her power taken by Tirek, what real reason would he have had to believe that she had any ability to stop him? How would he know about the keys at all, when not even the Mane Six themselves knew about them? It's not stupid to believe that once you've drained everyone of their power that they aren't able to do anything against you - not even Twilight herself knew of the trump card that they had lying in wait to take him down.

 

Also, the rainbow powers were a corporate mandate so they had to be included somewhere.

 

Think of it this way: without the rainbow powers, he would've won. The rainbow powers being the only reason he lost, his plan can be seen as far more effectual this way. Plus, he and Twilight were evenly matched during their fight, so that would be the easiest way to get rid of her powers without having to risk them both collapsing and dying trying to get her down by force.

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My problem with G4 Tirek is that he was really mean and nasty to the ponies.

 

Why couldn't he love the adorable little ponies, and sing and dance and frolic with them? That would have made him a much nicer and more loveable little centaur.

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Or, you know, we could realize that this show has a certain rating and that we actually need the characters to live through what happens to them and thereby making a plan that involves decimation of any sort an impossibility.

 

That's exactly the problem. It's usually easy to tell when the show's safety net is in use, and when Twilight gave up her power, effectively dooming all of Equestria since she had no backup plan whatsoever, yet still somehow managed to win the day, this was by far the most obvious use of the net ever. 

 

There is absolutely no justification for whatever contrived reasoning Tirek had to not kill Twilight and her friends on the spot, or at least not to send them to Tartarus with the other three alicorns. I realize that the heroes should be expected to win, but it still should not be this obvious that the plot is on their side. Hell, Twilight had already received one massive boon from the plot when she managed to control her power perfectly during the fight despite not having any grasp on it just seconds earlier. But to receive two, with the second being one of the most massive acts of contrivance ever in the series? That's just shit writing, plain and simple. 

 

 

 

When Twilight had her power taken by Tirek, what real reason would he have had to believe that she had any ability to stop him?

 

It doesn't matter. The fact remains that he sent Celestia, Luna, and Cadence to Tartarus for basically nothing, while Twilight received no consequence whatsoever for laying down a severe beatdown on him, and lo and behold, it was this sudden and illogical forgiving nature that ended up being his downfall. What a shocker.  

 

This is exactly why McCarthy sucks at villains. She makes them as ordinary as she possibly can, giving them the most typical of villain motives, and in the end, she allows them to defeat themselves by a single act of stupidity on their part. It's a tired formula and one that I'm really getting increasingly irritated by, particularly when it starts becoming more and more obvious that it's only the show's safety net which keeps granting the mane six their victories. 

 

This is why I'm hopeful that McCarthy did not write the season 5 premiere so that this unique and interesting villain will possibly not have the chance to go through this same routine. 

 

 

 

Also, the rainbow powers were a corporate mandate so they had to be included somewhere.

 

And that, I believe, is the only reason why Twilight didn't end up soloing Tirek completely and saving the day on her own, because Lord knows that's how McCarthy would have wanted it. 

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Once he got beefed up with power he was still scary but in a different way, when the hood was on he had that mysterious "what is this guy up to and what can he do?" vibe to him which fit toward the beginning but eventually the hood had to come off. You could argue that how big how got was overkill and I can understand why people would think that, if I was writing that episode he would have gotten bigger but not as big as in fact got. I look at it this way the default form of Tirek was the cold, calculating manipulator while the beefed up Tirek was the monster so drunk on his own power that he went on a rampage. I know it is quite a common villain trope but it one with a great degree of truth to it in real life though I can't argue that Tirek would have been even more dangerous if he kept the cold, calculating attitude even after his transformation. 

 

Tirek's personality for the most part is the same from his G1 counterpart so I don't get where you are getting the "they changed his personality" thing from. They tweaked a few things here and there but personality wise he is still the same. As for his powers the reason why they changed them is because Nightmare Moon was inspired by G1 Tirek, think about it. Tirek wanted to bring about the "night that never ends" with the rainbow of darkness while Nightmare Moon wanted to bring about eternal night with the only difference being that she didn't have the rainbow of darkness and was unable to transform ponies into dragons but was able to create some powerful illusions. Simply put they didn't want to risk him being seen as a Nightmare Moon clone though it would have been cool if they kept his ability to transform ponies into dragons and his rainbow of darkness still would have fit. The powers they did give him though are the same as Lavan who is another G1 villain.

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Twilight could apparently just go and have a lengthy death battle with him and be allowed to walk away afterward.    
The other alicorns had no magic, it was all put into Twilight, so yeah, she is made the most powerful pony there. 

 

 

 

Yep, that's Twilight's Kingdom and it's oh-so-spectacular writing for you.
What do you think the season four finale should have been then?

 

Meh, none of the vilians really have much of a story. The sombra thing confused me though, like with all of it.

Tirek was pretty badass though. 

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Guys, there is no need for the back and forth arguing. A few posts were hidden to deter it. Any posts contributing will be hidden.

 

Thank you.

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Lord knows had McCarthy actually written him with a brain, something that she almost never does with her villains, Twilight (and possibly the mane five as well) wouldn't be alive right now because Tirek would have done the most logical thing and decimated all of them on the spot the very second she gave up her power.

So good writing would have been for Tirek to obliterate the mane six? Why would that be a far superior ending?

 

Killing the main protagonists doesn't even happen in most dramas, much less a show like My Little Pony. I don't know what show you think you're watching.

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Well, on the opposite end from some people here, I actually liked Tirek more once he ditched the cloak and started beefing up. When he was shriveled and in hiding he obviously didn't seem very threatening, especially when Discord was just toying with him. But he was never very smart or calculating to begin with, he knew of Discord and played his vanity against him, that's it. When he started to collect magic, that's when he started to become more menacing and seemed like he could do some damage.

 

As for his voice change... well, I didn't much care for either voice. I'd say personally the beefed-up voice is my preference, not because of the voice itself but because of Mark Acheson's performance. True, a good portion of his lines at that point were snarls and screams but having done voice acting myself, I can tell you that it takes a lot more than it appears to do those snarls and screams.

 

But the thing that annoys me the absolute most is how could he have possibly not known that there was a fourth Alicorn Princess in Equestria? He had been around since It's About Time, all the way back in season two. He had a full season before Twilight's ascension to hear of the Mane Six and their exploits and a full season after her ascension to catch wind of a very public coronation. It's wholly unbelievable that spending all that time out of Tartarus that he would've never caught wind that there was another Princess, nor at least would have known of the Mane Six.

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Tirek's personality for the most part is the same from his G1 counterpart so I don't get where you are getting the "they changed his personality" thing from. They tweaked a few things here and there but personality wise he is still the same. As for his powers the reason why they changed them is because Nightmare Moon was inspired by G1 Tirek, think about it. Tirek wanted to bring about the "night that never ends" with the rainbow of darkness while Nightmare Moon wanted to bring about eternal night with the only difference being that she didn't have the rainbow of darkness and was unable to transform ponies into dragons but was able to create some powerful illusions. Simply put they didn't want to risk him being seen as a Nightmare Moon clone though it would have been cool if they kept his ability to transform ponies into dragons and his rainbow of darkness still would have fit. The powers they did give him though are the same as Lavan who is another G1 villain.

 

At the start, when he was a hooded mysterious figure, your right, he was very much like Tirek in G1, but he changed into just a brute, which was not like Tirek at all. I think what they did is they decided to create a brand new villain and then just slap the name Tirek on it for goodness knows what reason. Okay I get why they couldn't do eternal night, although the fan theory about him being the one to convince Luna to turn to evil so that forever night could happen was a very possible and fitting direction they could have taken.

 

Tirek in G1 was a satanic manipulator who locked up innocent creatures and separated them from their loved ones so he could change them into hideous demons. I don't think G1 was a good show, in fact I will say that Rescue from Midnight Castle is bad overall mostly due to how rushed it was and all the narrative problems it had, but Tirek was undoubtedly the best thing about that episode, G1, and even pre G4 as a whole. He's probably still the darkest of all of the villains. When I heard they were bringing him into FIM, I thought GREAT, finally a well written story will do this amazing character justice. I was very disappointed when that wasn't what I got.

 

I know that most people don't care at all for G1, and understandably so, but I feel that this not only didn't do the character any justice, but also was a bad villain in his own right.

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What do you think the season four finale should have been then?
 

 

Something that didn't rely on blatant pandering to bronies to be considered good. 

 

 

 

So good writing would have been for Tirek to obliterate the mane six?

 

 

I'm saying that the plot should not have been so far on Twilight's side that despite her making the incredibly asinine decision to endanger all of Equestria (to include herself and her friends) by giving up her power, she was still able to win the day simply due to nothing more than Tirek immediately dropping any and all hostile feelings he had towards her (a courtesy he clearly could not have bothered to extend to the other three alicorns, who were serving time in Pony Hell for nothing). 

 

As it stands, there is no logical justification you could possibly give to explain why Tirek simply decided to let Twilight and the mane five go, despite having no reason nor incentive to. I'm sorry, but when it starts becoming obvious that you've made it literally impossible for the heroes to lose, that's when you realize how poorly-written your plot is. 

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Something that didn't rely on blatant pandering to bronies to be considered good.
Fair enough. I don't think it was aimed at us directly, but then Tirek was feking huge, and I don't know many young girls who enjoy lasers and explosions XD. Do you think it would have been better if Tirek was just defeated before he took twilight's powers, i'm assuming that, or probably read it XD.
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Something that didn't rely on blatant pandering to bronies to be considered good.

I don't think they pander to a rather minor portion of the viewing audience that's outside their target group.

 

 

 

a courtesy he clearly could not have bothered to extend to the other three alicorns, who were serving time in Pony Hell for nothing).

If he did that or pretty much anything else to the mane six, they would be defeated and the show would be over.

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