Gender Equality

[Poetic Stone 1,040]

Are you absolutely sure about that?

sure why do you ask me this?

[Commissar Alexer 763]

sure why do you ask me this?

 

Because it has its downsides too.

[Poetic Stone 1,040]

Because it has its downsides too.

What does not have its downsides.

[Aidan OGain 112]

Well, being white and male is like having a parade every day. We have privilege. We don't ask for it, we don't even realize we get it, but we get it. So what are we going to do with it?

 

Support women.

 

I love my wife very much, and so I'm going to fight to make her dreams come true.

 

Women and men are indeed different. They have different brain chemistries, but in modern developed civilization, the male brain isn't as well adapted. In fact, it can be a problem. Male brains have a pronounced tendency toward aggression, competition, and sexualization. Testosterone shrinks the areas of the brain that deal with empathy, communication and relationships and replaces them with areas for tracking moving objects, violence, and sex. Female brains are the default and they are better suited to promoting social harmony. Male brains start out female, but are given heavy doses of testosterone that change them. Granted, that's not going to be true every time, but if I gave you fifty bucks for guessing the gender of a prison inmate and you guessed male every time, you'd give back fifty from time to time, but you'd be making money. If any sex is superior, I'd argue the case that women are. But I think everyone agrees justice requires equality. So as a man, I'm flattered and thankful women would call me equal when I am not.

 

Still, it's correct. Men have gender roles that are forced upon them and are every bit as oppressive as women's roles. Maybe feminism isn't the best term, but I'm going to support it because otherwise it will  be one more example of sweeping women's identity under the rug of history. Women ought to be supported and celebrated by men. So I will say I am a male feminist in support of the rights of all people, men and women, to be whoever they want to be. By supporting women, I support myself.

[Commissar Alexer 763]

Well, being white and male is like having a parade every day. We have privilege. We don't ask for it, we don't even realize we get it, but we get it. So what are we going to do with it?

 

Support women.

 

I love my wife very much, and so I'm going to fight to make her dreams come true.

 

Women and men are indeed different. They have different brain chemistries, but in modern developed civilization, the male brain isn't as well adapted. In fact, it can be a problem. Male brains have a pronounced tendency toward aggression, competition, and sexualization. Testosterone shrinks the areas of the brain that deal with empathy, communication and relationships and replaces them with areas for tracking moving objects, violence, and sex. Female brains are the default and they are better suited to promoting social harmony. Male brains start out female, but are given heavy doses of testosterone that change them. Granted, that's not going to be true every time, but if I gave you fifty bucks for guessing the gender of a prison inmate and you guessed male every time, you'd give back fifty from time to time, but you'd be making money. If any sex is superior, I'd argue the case that women are. But I think everyone agrees justice requires equality. So as a man, I'm flattered and thankful women would call me equal when I am not.

 

Still, it's correct. Men have gender roles that are forced upon them and are every bit as oppressive as women's roles. Maybe feminism isn't the best term, but I'm going to support it because otherwise it will  be one more example of sweeping women's identity under the rug of history. Women ought to be supported and celebrated by men. So I will say I am a male feminist in support of the rights of all people, men and women, to be whoever they want to be. By supporting women, I support myself.

 

Let me guess? You are a liberal, right? Or at least somewhere on the left spectrum.

[Aidan OGain 112]

No. I consider myself to be a Deliberative. If you have a good point, I will listen to it. Although, to be fair, I've already thought about this one a good deal. But new opinions are welcome.

[Commissar Alexer 763]

No. I consider myself to be a Deliberative. If you have a good point, I will listen to it. Although, to be fair, I've already thought about this one a good deal. But new opinions are welcome.

 

Well, let's put it simple: Your post is racist and sexist.

 

You are implying all white males have priviliges which is not the case.

You are implying that men are by default aggressive and inferior.

 

You my friend is what i would call...a cuck.

 

Well, /pol/ was right....again.

[Jeric 46,834]

After careful consideration and majority opinion review we are reopening this topic as is. 

 

[Aidan OGain 112]

Assigning me labels and calling me names has not convinced me of the validity of your argument. If you have a point to make about the topic, make it. I do listen to well-reasoned arguments.

 

As for racism? Nah. I'm not racist to say that people today still notice "race". Whatever that is. Race is a trait that comes from assumptions about a person based on a quick glance. But examining the issue closer, race has no meaning in biology. I'm "white". What I really am is an amalgam of some 17 different cultures and ethnicities. Out of those 17, I identify highly with Ireland and Irish culture. Point is, racism can only exist in unexamined life. Also, it's irrelevant to a person's personal business what another person appears to be. Who cares? They shouldn't, but we both know a lot of people still do care. And because they care, it does affect our personal business. Does acknowledging that make me a racist? I don't think so. I certainly don't blame you for it.

 

As for sexism: My statements above are based on scientific research. As we learn more about ourselves and our biology, we are discovering (to feminist's horror) that men's and women's brains are structurally different. Biologically speaking, everyone starts out female. Then Y chromosome children in utero are bathed in testosterone which changes them into males. There are species on this planet that are hermaphroditic and species that are entirely female, but there are no entirely male species. Males help out in creating genetic diversity, but we are not a requirement for life. Being able to reproduce is a requirement for life. Does it mean that men are not people? No. Does it mean we should be "female chauvinist"? No. All people are to be treated with equal respect and dignity and should have equal rights, privileges and responsibilities under the law. Acknowledging that people are different doesn't equal sexism.

 

If you have reasoned arguments to the contrary, I mean it, I will listen. but labels and name-calling don't convince me.

[Prince Firemane 309]

Maybe I've just had a narrow window upbringing, but to me, it seems that feminists have just about achieved their original goals, to the point that on a social level, women are treated with superiority such as laws made to protect specifically them. When it comes to the alleged pay gap, I can't tell you one way or the other whether it exists or not, I've never done the books on that scale before. However, the statistics that determine the alleged pay gap are inherently flawed. The data is accumulated from taxes, which is a very base level data gathering. While it does indeed show that men on average do make more women, there are a lot of factors to take into account, none of which is the "patriarchal domination" excuse that extremist feminists love to blame for not getting exactly their way. You have to look at job performance, diligence, punctuality, demeanor; all of these and more all play roles in determining one's pay. Then of course what plays the biggest role is that on average, men want to go for the higher-paying, more difficult jobs while on average, women don't. It has nothing to do with any kind of hiring bias, it's just the basic desire that makes a lot of difference. All these points play a role when it comes to determining pay, but are not accessible by gathering the basic tax information for these statistics.

 

The problem with western American society is that we have a very eye-for-an-eye kind of mentality. White men have, and probably will continue for a long time to catch hell because of what our ancestors have done to women and other races. White privilege does indeed exist, but so does black privilege, female privilege, etc. Yet, white privilege is the only one that people seem to have a problem with. Why? Because of the sins of our ancestors. While what happened in the past are great atrocities that never should've happened, they did indeed happen and there's nothing we can do about it. We recognize what happened, and to this day, us in the newest generation still feel great shame and guilt for sins that quite frankly have nothing to do with us. Those of us who love all equally despite of gender/racial BS are still treated like we're cracking whips or throwing tainted blankets. Where does it all end? There are still some white racists left in America, quite a bit more than most of us are willing to admit, but those of us that are loving and accepting outnumber them greatly. Yet their sins define us all.

[Aidan OGain 112]

Fine points. Pay bias is an issue, but my guess is that it's not the same as it was 100 years ago. I'll leave that up to people with the actual numbers in-hand.

 

We shouldn't feel guilty because of our ancestor's crimes. My ancestors did some terrible things, too. In fact. I'm both Irish and English. My ancestors did terrible things to each other. By all right, I should hate myself for existing. But That's just silly. The fact that I exist is one stitch in the fabric of forgiveness. I can't hate myself, so I can't think the Irish should hate the English or vice versa.

 

Ultimately we need to let go of our guilt and do the right thing now. "Be the change you want to see in the world." Use the circumstances of your existence to contribute to what you think is right. Acknowledge the world we've inherited and its problems and be a force for improvement. By doing that, we can redeem our dark fathers.

[honk friend 1,972]

People seem to think of feminism what a very radical and vocal minority show of it. Literally all we do is advocate social equality of men and women and that generally includes abolishing gender-specific roles, which is beneficial to both sexes.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Kitty.

[Time Shield 402]

I'm all for equal opportunity; I don't think opportunity should be restricted just because of someone's gender.  However, regardless of what everyone would like to believe, men and women are different.  Unless we somehow evolve into an asexual species, it's always going to be the case that we're different, so why do we try to pretend that we aren't?  The key here is to celebrate and embrace our differences, not divide ourselves by them.

 

I think I might have been raised correctly in this regard.  I recognize the differences in gender, race, religion, etc., but don't consider them boundaries, no more than I would think that different eye or hair colors would be.  Differences are good, they provide variety and interest.

 

Which would be worse: a rainbow being all one color, or the people that view a rainbow just choosing to ignore the different colors?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Time Shield

[FlutterHigh 81]

I honestly just believe that men things are ok the they are because things move on by themselves overtime. The one thing that should change quicker in my opinion is the guys ability to able to show their MLP like side.

[Silver Letter 1,830]

 

 

The key here is to celebrate and embrace our differences, not divide ourselves by them.

I think by doing so, you would be assuming that all men are the same and all women are the same. Men and women are not different but there are varying degrees of difference that both males and females can express. I believe that both sexes are part of humanity and have the capability to reason.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,298]

I don't treat people equally.  Because we're all different.  Ideally, the amount of regard you have for anyone should be decided by who they are as an individual.

 

I am male.  I am white.  My name is Siegfried.  I am Siegfried first.  While my sex and race are influential components of who I am, I am - first and foremost - an individual.

 

Not unexpectedly, my mother is a woman.  My grandmother is also a woman (it runs in the family?).  How I feel about the two of them is completely different.  My grandfather, unlike my grandmother, was a man; I had far greater regard for him than I will ever have for my grandmother.  This has nothing to do with sex.  They were not equal: My grandfather was a better human being than my grandmother.  Individuals.

 

Regardless of sex, we all possess varying levels of potential and ability.  Where employment is concerned, whoever is better equipped to handle the responsibilities of a job should be granted that position.  Ideally, anyhow.  Sometimes that will be a woman, and sometimes that will be a man.  I imagine that being a firefighter, for example, is very physically demanding and requires a certain amount of upper body strength.  Despite being male, I'd have no business being a firefighter; I lack the physical ability.  (And know-how.  And willingness to run into burning buildings.)  I'm sure there are women who strength train (or whatever it is people do in gyms, Idunno) who could easily put me to shame.  On the other hand, if a woman who doesn't possess adequate or above average upper body strength is up against a bulky dude (not me) with actual muscles (haven't got them) for just such a physically-demanding position, Bulk Biceps should get it, no question.  Not merely because he is male, but because he can probably - in this instance - better perform in the job.

 

Regardless of who gets a job, however, I don't see why the pay wouldn't be the same.  If you were planning on paying Gary X for a day's work doing Y, you should pay Catherine X for a day's work doing Y.  And if either Gary or Catherine sucks at their job, you fire them.

[Aidan OGain 112]

Also, I might add that training can trump raw ability. Just because men have an advantage for upper body strength doesn't mean there aren't methods or even technologies to work around that for women. Likewise even going muscle to muscle, women olymic athletes might not be able to beat their male competitors, but they could beat 99% of the rest of males.

 

More, probably.

 

Inborn traits only get you so far. Humans are adaptable, and looking for a different angle or the use of new technologies levels the playing field.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Aidan OGain

[Trine 665]

I think people tend to confuse people who fought for women's right in the past with women's right activists, which gets confused with feminism. Which is about non sensical issues that is not critical to what one can call real repression of religious cultures and laws. The problem is that its not politically correct, so the silly stuff gets more attention due to this.

 

I am all for equality.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Trine

[Jaxsie (Inactive) 1,343]

This is an interesting topic that I'd like to add my "two cents" on. Gender equality can not exist, because gender can never be "equal." Men and women are scientifically different; biologically and physically. Comparing gender is like comparing an apple and an orange; both are a fruit but are different in their own unique way -- so how can one be better than the other? Men and women compliment each other in our strength and weaknesses; what one lacks (or has less of) the other makes up for. For example, men are (generally) physically stronger and less emotional -- in that men express their emotions less. Women, on the other hand, are physically weaker but more emotional. Call me sexist, but If I need to move something heavy but can't -- like furniture -- my first instinct is not to call on women to do the job. Or let's flip this around; If a woman needs a babysitter, her first instinct is not to get a male babysitter. I'm just being honest here. Differences are O.K., and they are beautiful and compliment each other perfectly. Gender can not be compared as being better than the other because they are unique and therefore can't be made equal. This is not to be confused with social equality; which every society should have.

Edited April 14, 2015 by RainbowJaxs16

[Commissar Alexer 763]

Assigning me labels and calling me names has not convinced me of the validity of your argument. If you have a point to make about the topic, make it. I do listen to well-reasoned arguments.

 

As for racism? Nah. I'm not racist to say that people today still notice "race". Whatever that is. Race is a trait that comes from assumptions about a person based on a quick glance. But examining the issue closer, race has no meaning in biology. I'm "white". What I really am is an amalgam of some 17 different cultures and ethnicities. Out of those 17, I identify highly with Ireland and Irish culture. Point is, racism can only exist in unexamined life. Also, it's irrelevant to a person's personal business what another person appears to be. Who cares? They shouldn't, but we both know a lot of people still do care. And because they care, it does affect our personal business. Does acknowledging that make me a racist? I don't think so. I certainly don't blame you for it.

 

As for sexism: My statements above are based on scientific research. As we learn more about ourselves and our biology, we are discovering (to feminist's horror) that men's and women's brains are structurally different. Biologically speaking, everyone starts out female. Then Y chromosome children in utero are bathed in testosterone which changes them into males. There are species on this planet that are hermaphroditic and species that are entirely female, but there are no entirely male species. Males help out in creating genetic diversity, but we are not a requirement for life. Being able to reproduce is a requirement for life. Does it mean that men are not people? No. Does it mean we should be "female chauvinist"? No. All people are to be treated with equal respect and dignity and should have equal rights, privileges and responsibilities under the law. Acknowledging that people are different doesn't equal sexism.

 

If you have reasoned arguments to the contrary, I mean it, I will listen. but labels and name-calling don't convince me.

 

You should quote people if you are answering them.

 

Most white people can drink mild as an adult without getting stomache. Most blacks don't.

Or that about 1 of 100 whites have a immunity to AIDS?

It does play a role ,even if its small. Then reality is, most people will still stick to their own 'race'.

 

 

Here's a question: Why are men aggressive?

[A Black Circle 1,585]

Two cents incoming:

Men and women are different. If we were to characterize the differences in a war, the men would be the combat soldiers, and the women would be the medics. Both are equally important and depend on each other to survive. I mean, if men and women aren't supposed to be different outside reproduction, then why isn't same-gender reproduction a thing? It's appeared on other lifeforms. Or even entirely asexual reproduction. I feel people are going too far with this.

[pakicetus 312]

Fairness > equality. We will never get equality in certain areas. Nonetheless, it's important to remember that generalizations and averages are not always accurate.

 

People seem to think of feminism what a very radical and vocal minority show of it.

 

Where is this this rational majority I keep hearing about, then? They're certainly not the people who write the 'feminist perspective' articles published by most of the outlets I've seen. 

 

Men and women are not different

 

They are. On average, at least.

Edited April 15, 2015 by pakicetus

[Silver Letter 1,830]

 

 

They are. On average, at least.

Who cares about averages. I care about individuals and one can't predict an individual.

[pakicetus 312]

 

 

Who cares about averages.

 

 

Statisticians, politicians, political enthusiasts, policy makers, generally anyone who works with very large groups of people.

[Luna the Great of all the Russias 2,700]

People seem to think of feminism what a very radical and vocal minority show of it. Literally all we do is advocate social equality of men and women and that generally includes abolishing gender-specific roles, which is beneficial to both sexes.

Is unfortunate that feminism is often overshadowed by the smaller and louder feminazis; it gives regular feminists undeserved bad reputation and taints word feminism itself. Somehow I find this sort of case is similarly true with internet Christians; most probably don't care about other beliefs and are generally accepting, but you have smaller groups who are... extreme Jesus freaks who degrades others' whose religion differs and see non-heterosexuality as abomination.

 

Abolishing gender-specific roles? I can't see this being completely true because in cases where characteristics of one gender are more objectively superior to another. Perhaps the most obvious of this is... the average male is probably more likely to get job involving intense physical labour than average female; that's not discrimination but rather sort of inequality that makes sense. While I accept that sort of inequality, I'm not for discriminating either gender just because of their gender.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Tsaritsa Luna