35 replies to this topic

[Frankenbrony]

This has probably been brough up before, but what is the sequence of events here?

Twilight meets Future Twilight, who attempts to warn her not to worry about the future because nothing will happen in the next week. But how did this start? What happened first? It seems that Twilight is doing something because of something that happens in the future, which only happened because of what happened in the past, sparked by what happened in the future. Worse, all of this happens because somewhere along the way, some incarnation of Twilight Sparkle was afraid that her past self would worry about something that didn't happen.

This is the sort of thing that makes people in Star Trek fear going into the past. We are either forced to abandon a linear view of time, or else throw away the whole idea of cause and effect.

Edited by Frankenbrony, 10 May 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Extraho Vinco]

So basically your saying that the cycle of events would never have occurred because in order for the events to happen the event would have to happen first.

Actually a really interesting point, If what your saying is correct then we can interject that both cause and effect and a linear view of time is incorrect in equestria; here is why -

If twilight had visited herself in the past the events that had lead up to it would have already occurred in that timeline, so we are faced with a dilemma. How had the chain of events started if twilight hadn't visited herself to trigger the cycle in the first cycle?

There is no "cause" in the original case.

Time cannot be linear in this as it causes a feedback loop.

paradox and mindf***. I rest my case. 0.o

Edited by Extraho Vinco, 10 May 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[Twily]

Princess Celestia, for all we know.

[Extraho Vinco]

Princess Celestia, for all we know.

She was at that library trolling xD

Edited by Extraho Vinco, 10 May 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Frankenbrony]

There's a possibility. Maybe Celestia is related to Discord (interesting thought, as well).

The classic way around such a paradox is to bring in the possibility of a parallel universe, in which a change in the course of history creates an alternate future instead of something logically impossible. Twilight could still make an error like this and warn a parallel self not to worry. The first visitor to the first Twilight would have started a chain that doesn't lead to a feedback loop or a paradox, but would still beg the question of what made her start the chain. That isn't much help in the end, really.

[Thereisnospoon303]

It's a time paradox. The initiating event perpetuates itself.

[Alkryn]

My name is Time. This episode did not appease me as it defied my laws and f***ed with the timeline, so therefore, the conclusion is sending the episode into a paradox.

Edited by Prince Dusk, 12 May 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[Extraho Vinco]

It's a time paradox. The initiating event perpetuates itself.

But how would that be possible? The event would be inclined to mimic itself. Just saying its possible because its impossible dosent make sense.

There's a possibility. Maybe Celestia is related to Discord (interesting thought, as well).

The classic way around such a paradox is to bring in the possibility of a parallel universe, in which a change in the course of history creates an alternate future instead of something logically impossible. Twilight could still make an error like this and warn a parallel self not to worry. The first visitor to the first Twilight would have started a chain that doesn't lead to a feedback loop or a paradox, but would still beg the question of what made her start the chain. That isn't much help in the end, really.

I guess what I'm asking is how would the initiating event come to being. I guess this is all a philosophical discussion now.

[Parties like Pinkie]

Basically Twilight became Doctor Who for one episode.

That is all.

[Randomiser]

Yes, this is a certain trope with time travel usually called a "Bootstrap Paradox". You may have also seen in it the short story that coined the term, or in things like the third Harry Potter story.

If you were to try to find a purely logical start of the cycle, you probably couldn't. It is possible that the "first" Twilight had a reason to go back and things played out until the loop eventually stabilized like we see in the episode. They did fix up a lot of potential dangers around Ponyville. But I think there's something more to it.

Something similar happens in Donnie Darko, which uses what I call the divine intervention theory of time travel. Essentially, our universe is an entirely logical place, and the only way a time loop can be created (an effect without a cause) is by something not bound by the laws of physics. In the film, time travel exists to teach someone an important lesson.

I mention this because the lesson Twilight needed to learn was pretty clear. She was becoming way too stressed and was about to go Lesson Zero again (she never really learned anything from that). Taking place in Equestria makes things much easier to explain, because magic is readily available and definitely takes precedence over the physical laws of the universe. The time loop could have been due to something like fate (which we have seen in Cutie Mark Chronicles), though my initial impression was that Celestia's magic could be strong enough to create it, especially with her rushed greeting in the library.

Edited by Randomiser, 11 May 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[Parties like Pinkie]

Yes, this is a certain trope with time travel usually called a "Bootstrap Paradox". You may have also seen in it the short story that coined the term, or in things like the third Harry Potter story.

If you were to try to find a purely logical start of the cycle, you probably couldn't. It is possible that the "first" Twilight had a reason to go back and things played out until the loop eventually stabilized like we see in the episode. They did fix up a lot of potential dangers around Ponyville. But I think there's something more to it.

Something similar happens in Donnie Darko, which uses what I call the divine intervention theory of time travel. Essentially, our universe is an entirely logical place, and the only way a time loop can be created (a cause without an effect) is by something not bound by the laws of physics. In the film, time travel exists to teach someone an important lesson.

I mention this because the lesson Twilight needed to learn was pretty clear. She was becoming way too stressed and was about to go Lesson Zero again (she never really learned anything from that). Taking place in Equestria makes things much easier to explain, because magic is readily available and definitely takes precedence over the physical laws of the universe. The time loop could have been due to something like fate (which we have seen in Cutie Mark Chronicles), though my initial impression was that Celestia's magic could be strong enough to create it, especially with her rushed greeting in the library.

Your smartness hurts my brain.

I like your reasoning skills though, so *brohoof*

[Thereisnospoon303]

But how would that be possible? The event would be inclined to mimic itself. Just saying its possible because its impossible dosent make sense.

That's sort of the point to the paradox. Finding an exact moment of emergence apart from the timeline is impossible because that event has already been incorporated into the timeline.

Randomiser summarizes the whole problem rather succinctly.

[Parties like Pinkie]

As a note: I did not read anyone's post, except those I have quoted, to save time, so if this has been said before, sorry.

What if one Twilight were to completely not go back in time at all? wouldn't that mean she wouldn't be in the state she was, and not be in Canterlot as well?

[Extraho Vinco]

Yes, this is a certain trope with time travel usually called a "Bootstrap Paradox". You may have also seen in it the short story that coined the term, or in things like the third Harry Potter story.

If you were to try to find a purely logical start of the cycle, you probably couldn't. It is possible that the "first" Twilight had a reason to go back and things played out until the loop eventually stabilized like we see in the episode. They did fix up a lot of potential dangers around Ponyville. But I think there's something more to it.

Something similar happens in Donnie Darko, which uses what I call the divine intervention theory of time travel. Essentially, our universe is an entirely logical place, and the only way a time loop can be created (a cause without an effect) is by something not bound by the laws of physics. In the film, time travel exists to teach someone an important lesson.

I mention this because the lesson Twilight needed to learn was pretty clear. She was becoming way too stressed and was about to go Lesson Zero again (she never really learned anything from that). Taking place in Equestria makes things much easier to explain, because magic is readily available and definitely takes precedence over the physical laws of the universe. The time loop could have been due to something like fate (which we have seen in Cutie Mark Chronicles), though my initial impression was that Celestia's magic could be strong enough to create it, especially with her rushed greeting in the library.

This is a brilliant explanation!

[Parties like Pinkie]

This is a brilliant explanation!

Indubitably!!!

[Mr. Jaguar]

In ocarina of time, link, as adult link, meets the windmill man in the future who tells him that a kid 7 years ago played the song of storms in his windmill, causing it to go out of whack. The man teaches him the song of storms as adult link. Link then goes back 7 years into the past and plays the song of storms he only learned in the future. He did NOT know the song as a child, which means he was not the original kid who played the song, and he therefore replaced the kid in time. So, who was the original kid who played the song of storms?

It's just like that scenario. We'll never know, since it no longer has happened due to time screw ups, and we should just look at it as an interesting mystery.........or it's a paradox.

Edited by Pegasus25, 10 May 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Parties like Pinkie]

In ocarina of time, link, as adult link, meets the windmill man in the future who tells him that a kid 7 years ago played the song of storms in his windmill, causing it to go out of whack. The man teaches him the song of storms as adult link. Link then goes back 7 years into the past and plays the song of storms he only learned in the future. He did NOT know the song as a child, which means he was not the original kid who played the song, and he therefore replaced the kid in time. So, who was the original kid who played the song of storms?

It's just like that scenario. We'll never know, since it no longer has happened due to time screw ups, and we should just look at it as an interesting mystery.........or it's a paradox.

Please stop blowing my mind

you're either really really good at this, or google is.

I'm going with the first option!

[Extraho Vinco]

In ocarina of time, link, as adult link, meets the windmill man in the future who tells him that a kid 7 years ago played the song of storms in his windmill, causing it to go out of whack. The man teaches him the song of storms as adult link. Link then goes back 7 years into the past and plays the song of storms he only learned in the future. He did NOT know the song as a child, which means he was not the original kid who played the song, and he therefore replaced the kid in time. So, who was the original kid who played the song of storms?

It's just like that scenario. We'll never know, since it no longer has happened due to time screw ups, and we should just look at it as an interesting mystery.........or it's a paradox.

Well actually a similar thing happened in a show called sanctuary, the main character is immortal and happened to be blasted back into the past, so she lived through the timeline as her older self but never interfering with her younger self's timeline up until the point she is blasted back into the past (which then she reveals herself). So now I have not actually played ocarina of time but wouldn't it be a similar event where there would actually be two links in the same time period?

And what you described isn't a paradox, its actually a linear event with a defined start and end.

Edited by Extraho Vinco, 10 May 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[Proctra]

This episode makes no sense. AT ALL. This should be a paradox. The action would keep recurring for eternity. Because twilight keeps resetting time. I noticed this instantly.

[Parties like Pinkie]

Well actually a similar thing happened in a show called sanctuary, the main character is immortal and happened to be blasted back into the past, so she lived through the timeline as her older self but never interfering with her younger self's timeline up until the point she is blasted back into the past (which then she reveals herself). So now I have not actually played ocarina of time but wouldn't it be a similar event where there would actually be two links in the same time period?

And what you described isn't a paradox, its actually a linear event with a defined start and end.

I've got a feeling I'm going to need to use this more than once in this thread.