Tulpa Discussion Thread V1.2

[Golurk 467]

So i was discussing this with a friend of mine (who has made a tulpa before), and he seemed utterly appalled that the way I've been trying to do this does not involve meditation of any kind. He suggested I do that before major sessions and that should help.

 

But, here we come to the problem. I don't know how.

 

From what he described, it's essentially just emptying the mind of thoughts and thinking of nothing. But both of those are completely foreign concepts to me. My mind is pretty much always active in some form or another, barring the few moments before I fall asleep. I have no idea how to stop it.

 

I've tried doing some meditation in my spare time, but it never feels like I'm doing it right. Largely because I don't know how to cancel things out, and even if I did, there'd probably just be more things to cancel out.

 

This sounds incredibly dumb, I know, but how does one meditate? Especially for something like this. I'm having literally zero luck at it.

[Wolfeus Silverpaw 301]

So i was discussing this with a friend of mine (who has made a tulpa before), and he seemed utterly appalled that the way I've been trying to do this does not involve meditation of any kind. He suggested I do that before major sessions and that should help.

 

But, here we come to the problem. I don't know how.

 

From what he described, it's essentially just emptying the mind of thoughts and thinking of nothing. But both of those are completely foreign concepts to me. My mind is pretty much always active in some form or another, barring the few moments before I fall asleep. I have no idea how to stop it.

 

I've tried doing some meditation in my spare time, but it never feels like I'm doing it right. Largely because I don't know how to cancel things out, and even if I did, there'd probably just be more things to cancel out.

 

This sounds incredibly dumb, I know, but how does one meditate? Especially for something like this. I'm having literally zero luck at it.

 

Sharlina: Geez, your friend's reaction seems like a bit much. And just so you know... You don't need to meditate, silly! I'm sure others may find it helpful, but it's not something you absolutely need to do to have a tulpa around, yes? <3

[KruegerMeister 54]

I'm going through the grieving process, at a time when I should be focused on school. Is it ethical to have my tulpa(s) take the wheel so that they can do the schoolwork, while I work through my grief?

Also, is there any chance of it becoming harder and harder for me to control the body, or are those just horror stories?

Edited September 22, 2015 by KruegerMeister

[yayayayayala 1,668]

Does anyone else have their tulpa come to school with them to have their calming presence around?

I would if I weren't homeschooled! :3

 

Vinny's very calming Sometimes when I'm bummed about something he'll give me a little hug and/or wrap one of his wings around me, and I feel calmer.

 

 

So i was discussing this with a friend of mine (who has made a tulpa before), and he seemed utterly appalled that the way I've been trying to do this does not involve meditation of any kind. He suggested I do that before major sessions and that should help.

 

But, here we come to the problem. I don't know how.

 

From what he described, it's essentially just emptying the mind of thoughts and thinking of nothing. But both of those are completely foreign concepts to me. My mind is pretty much always active in some form or another, barring the few moments before I fall asleep. I have no idea how to stop it.

 

I've tried doing some meditation in my spare time, but it never feels like I'm doing it right. Largely because I don't know how to cancel things out, and even if I did, there'd probably just be more things to cancel out.

 

This sounds incredibly dumb, I know, but how does one meditate? Especially for something like this. I'm having literally zero luck at it.

I've never tried meditation before, but from what I've seen it's definitely different for everyone. My mind is very active as well, but in the past when I've had a hard time going to sleep I found one constant noise - for me it was the smol air cleaner that I have running in my room to provide some background noise - and putting ALL of my attention on that. I was basically forcing myself to concentrate only on that noise, and I found that it helped clear my mind a bit. That's my suggestion, though I don't know if it would transfer well from going to sleep to meditating.

Edited September 22, 2015 by yayayayayala :3

[KruegerMeister 54]

My Rainbow Dash seems pretty similar to the character from the show. I started tulpamancy thinking I'd get a corporeal Rainbow Dash; is it possible that I still want that on an unconscious level, hence her acting like her show counterpart?

[Rizoel & Crepuscule 490]

Hey guys, OP here. long time no see. Again. In fact, most of you have probably forgotten me, but yes, it is the OP here. I have a bit of news about the original post of this thread, and some other random things.

News first; I’ve decided to get off my butt and finally update the original post of this thread to be a bit more sane. I’ve always disliked the previous one, as it seemed very rushed and didn’t give that much information, but I just haven’t found much motivation to change it. In fact, actually, I’ve found no motivation to post here at all, as well as answer questions and stuff. I think one of the reasons for that is because I think this thread just shouldn’t exist anymore. And I guess I’ll explain why in the spoiler below. Two reasons:

Some ranting in spoiler, FYI. Recommend you just skip it completely if you value your time and sanity.  

 

One; I think that it can be counter-productive to ask other people questions regarding how to create tulpas. No, I’m not saying that it’s bad to question things. Absolutely not. I’m talking more about posting questions, and have other people answer a question that in actuality can only be answered by you.

 

My reason for thinking this is that, I believe tulpas is a very subjective experience. When someone tells you their experience after doing X with tulpa, the information they relay might give you a rough idea of what it might be like for you if you did the same. But, it might also tell you absolutely nothing. You don’t really know which it will be. Because everyone experiences tulpas differently. Everyone has their own way of making them, interacting with them, etc.

 

That being said, I believe that everything you need to know to get started with tulpas is in the ‘Guides’ section, as well as ‘Tips & Tricks’, ‘Resources’, ‘Articles’ and ‘Submissions’ of the tulpa.info forums. These boards contain wealths of knowledge regarding tulpas. AND, if your question is not listed here, even if you use the search function (please use this, for the love of god), then it’s probably because it’s nothing to worry about. Plus, the most you’re going to get from the ‘Questions & Answers’ board is cancer, in my opinion.

 

If you’re scared that X,Y or Z will happen, and you go and look around on the forums to see if other people have asked or discussed the same thing, and you find nothing, then I would say that the very fact that no one is talking about it probably means that whatever you’re afraid of, is - again - most likely nothing to worry about. People would be talking about it if it was.

 

Oh, and if you’re all like ‘oh, well; what if people don’t get a chance to talk about it because they DIE after they experience the thing? ’

‘Get &$%@ing real’, I would say.

All in all, for the vast majority of people, things turn out great, including for the people that had their fair share of fears(though I like to think that they had to put them aside for everything to ultimately come together). And, I would say that for the very few people that it didn’t turn out so great for, I would say that it is completely because they had too many fears. The reason they failed was because they had fears. No fear = no problem. End of.

Oh, and when I say ‘failed’, I don’t mean that person’s tulpa threw them off a bridge or some nonsense, I mean as in they failed as in they quit, maybe because they got too scared to carry on because they were superstitious or something.

 

And the second reason why (in my opinion) this thread shouldn’t exist; Tulpa.info, and the tulpa community in general on the internet(as well as here), is seeing A LOT of people that are #1) Not taking this phenomenon seriously, some of which are only interested in, say, using tulpas as a medium to create imaginary girlfriends omgasdfghjklVBNS8OGIBVN (no doubt the Tibetan monks who discovered this phenomenon would be proud /sarcasm) #2) Not being skeptical enough in their research. #3) Say they are scared shitless by the phenomenon, yet - for some reason - nevertheless say that they want to participate in the phenomenon, which leads to them completely wasting their and everyone else's time by asking questions that can very easily be answered by the guides section and whatnot, or by just simply putting fear aside and creating the tulpa(though maybe that is easier said than done, unless you’ve already made one, in which case you will know how incredibly simple it all actually is), and finding out for themselves.

 

I say if you have any fears about this phenomenon. Any. ANYTHING AT ALL, just turn your back and go back to whatever you were doing before you found this phenomenon. Because the only thing that’s gonna’ happen is you wasting your time. It will be hard for you to make a tulpa if you have fears. The more fears you have, the longer it will take.

 

Now, granted, I had a couple of fears when I first found this phenomenon. It’s completely natural to be scared about something new. But I still managed to make not one tulpa, but three of them. And I like to think that the reason that they appeared sooner rather than later was because I decided to put aside my fears, have a little patience, and just go for it. I just said to myself, ‘whatever happens, happens’. I also realize now that it's completely pointless to ask others about a fear that you have, because they cannot 100% accurately answer it for you. Only you can, by doing it and finding out for yourself. And if you’re too afraid to do that, then it’s time to stop. Not because something bad will happen to you if you continue, but rather because progress will be slowed down, potentially to a near-standstill, depending on how many you have, and how severe they are.

 

I guess what I’m trying to say, is that it’s actually okay to have fears, but it’s what you decide to do with them is what determines whether or not you’ll be able to make a tulpa. Other people cannot tell you what will happen, because they don’t know. The only way to know is to find out for yourself.

 

If you were to ask me what the most scary thing about tulpas is, I would probably say Switching. And in case you don’t know what it is, it’s basically possession, except that you - the host - purposely disconnect yourself from your five senses at the same time, and see the world from the perspective of the tulpa. Meanwhile, the tulpa in question is possessing your body IRL, and they get to feel what it’s really like to be the host.

 

That sounds really creepy, don’t it?

 

Well, I’m biased, of course I would say that. You know why? Because I’ve never tried switching before. So of course it’s going to seem really creepy and whatnot. Just in the same way that tulpas in general seemed quite strange, but nevertheless interesting when I first heard about it(both tulpas and switching). I had already known that the mind was capable of many weird and interesting feats. So I decided to find out more, along with healthy skepticism in mind.

 

And as of right now, I don’t really have any interest in trying out switching. Not because of fear or anything. I have no doubts that it’s actually completely safe; quite a few people have tried it, and they’re all still as healthy when they ‘came back’ as they were when they tried it. But, I just can’t be bothered to try it myself; it’s clearly a very hard thing to do, and it’s obvious to me that I am not experienced enough to do it, especially since I’ve basically stopped progressing my tulpas, at least for now. No, don’t worry, they’re still with me, causing as much trouble as a Staff Assistant in SS13(and that’s okay of course; life would be a little boring without my tulpas, but don’t tell them that ). In fact, I’ve been talking to them a lot more since then.

 

But, I noticed that I'm also not even bothering to do things like imposition, which is something almost every tulpamancer does. Also because I can’t be bothered, and also because, they’re in my mind; I’d basically be lying to myself more than what I already am if I imposed them in my reality, because, that’s not where they are. I get why people want to do it, but, nah.

 

But anyway I'm getting off topic. I’m sorry that I’ve come off as an asshole today(who am I kidding, that's everyday). But I’ve just really wanted to get this off my chest.

 

Also, if you guys feel that there is anything important missing in the OP, or a typo or a better way to word something, do tell me, preferably by PM, or via the IRC I've linked in the OP, which I am usually always on. The OP is quite big now and there’s bound to be mistakes in there.

 

Oh, and I doubt I will posting very much after this, if at all(so, nothing will change, I guess). Again, as I said in the spoiler above, I don’t see why this thread should exist anymore, (but I ain’t going to delete it, since some of you still like it, it seems), and I could say a very similar thing about the ‘Questions & Answer’ section of the Tulpa.info forums. If I see another post about tulpa-pregnancy there I swear I’m gonna kill a man.

 

---

 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the last ‘random thing’ I mentioned at the start of this post; one last thing I think I should mention for the two people that might still remember us. It’s about Crepuscule. Yep.

 

She’s decided to make herself a new main form. This actually happened about an entire year ago, and I just haven’t been bothered to post about it becausezzzzz.

 

But anyway, that’s it, that’s all that’s changed about any of us. Here’s a picture I slightly modified to look a bit more similar to her form(I only modified hair color and eye color), ignore any tattoos and piercings though; she doesn’t have any. Also, the pic is not exactly SFW, but there’s no naughty bits or anything.

 

Just her and a bikini. I swear she usually wears more clothes than this. Sometimes. Maybe.

 

http://puu.sh/ksJdY.png

 

I know. I don't know where it went all wrong. But what I do know, is that urge to drown myself in the closet is reaching critical levels. I'll see you all later. Maybe. :okiedokielokie:

 

This is partially the reason I don’t impose my tulpas; I don’t want a unicorn, an anthro pegasus and a 6 foot tall anthro shark following me around thanks. My room is small enough.  

Just like his dick.  

 

 

[KruegerMeister 54]

My Rainbow Dash seems pretty similar to the character from the show. I started tulpamancy thinking I'd get a corporeal Rainbow Dash; is it possible that I still want that on an unconscious level, hence her acting like her show counterpart?

Repost/bump because nobody answered yet and this is semi-urgent (it's kinda distressing me, and I don't want to prolong that)

Edited October 10, 2015 by KruegerMeister

[AuraBlue 329]

Repost/bump because nobody answered yet and this is semi-urgent (it's kinda distressing me, and I don't want to prolong that)

Thats pretty much how Fluttershy, Rainbow, and Pinkie are when i created them. They all have personalities similar to their show counterparts (Fluttershy's inherited some of my personality but still retains her own personality). I guess if you wanted to make her personality like her show counterpart it should be fine. Oh and sorry for the late response. I saw the original post but had a few things going on with me and my tulpas. Edited October 11, 2015 by FlutterBlue

[Gekoncze 327]

Today I've had a dream again that included Millie on her own! It means that I wasn't around and she saw it in first person view (it was basically like switching when I'm not there). I've only had about 2 or 3 dreams like that before, but not so stable and long. Of course it ended up with nuclear reactions caused by her superpowers
Another thing I noticed is that she's always in her human form in all dreams, probably because I imagine her like that more often. I rarely have dreams with ponies, but surprisingly I've had one today that included Discord and Twi.

I wonder if anybody here had experience with their tulpas in dreams too, especially them dreaming on their own.

For example if Crep creeps Rizoel in his dreams somehow. That could be fun for sure.

 

Repost/bump because nobody answered yet and this is semi-urgent (it's kinda distressing me, and I don't want to prolong that)

Of course it's possible you're still wanting it unconsciously, but it's only you and you who can know it. You should realize and accept that it's not going to be RD how you know her from the show, her personality is very likely to change. It's like with human beings - their personality also change during time, especially when growing up. (for example Millie now has nothing to do with the character I based her on, only the appearance is sill very similar, but is slowly changing too)

Edited October 11, 2015 by Gekoncze

[KruegerMeister 54]

I've known and accepted that for a few years. I just meant that while I thought I'd "created" RD with only a few traits of her show counterpart, I'm thinking that the other traits were actually disguised synonyms for some of her show counterpart's other traits. She also deviated toward being sassy and stubborn/determined.

 

[so what if I'm like the show-RD? Like I told you that one time, Krueger, the subconscious wants what the subconscious wants.

How long have you had Millie for, Geko?]

[Gekoncze 327]

[so what if I'm like the show-RD? Like I told you that one time, Krueger, the subconscious wants what the subconscious wants.

How long have you had Millie for, Geko?]

Well, it's completely fine if you are like RD from the show! I just wanted to remind Krueger and others of the fact tulpae personality can change.

 

As for the question, It's a mystery for how long Millie is with me exactly ''  It's one of the things I regret not writing down, because, as she says, she want's her birthday that she deserves. I only know that it's somewhere between 2nd Jan 2012 and 24th Aug 2012 So it's about 3 and half years if I count right.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Gekoncze

[KruegerMeister 54]

Today I've had a dream again that included Millie on her own! It means that I wasn't around and she saw it in first person view (it was basically like switching when I'm not there). I've only had about 2 or 3 dreams like that before, but not so stable and long. Of course it ended up with nuclear reactions caused by her superpowers

Another thing I noticed is that she's always in her human form in all dreams, probably because I imagine her like that more often. I rarely have dreams with ponies, but surprisingly I've had one today that included Discord and Twi.

 

I wonder if anybody here had experience with their tulpas in dreams too, especially them dreaming on their own.

 

I've had one or two dreams that I could deduce were my tulpas' (due to either the content or an admission from a tulpa) as opposed to mine (for example, a dream that heavily featured stuff from Fullmetal Alchemist had by one of my Fullmetal Alchemist-based tulpas).

[Sugoi Kurloz 40]

This is interesting.. I came in kind if late would some one send me a link that explains Tulpa? I heard of it before

[Gekoncze 327]

This is interesting.. I came in kind if late would some one send me a link that explains Tulpa? I heard of it before

https://mlpforums.com/topic/18464-tulpa-discussion-thread-v12-op-updated/

It's right at the first page along with links to tulpa.info site where you can find a lot of information too.

[KruegerMeister 54]

Rainbow Dash just told me she wanted to go on a date in a forest in our wonderland (she insisted on that word, for some reason). Is it weird that I'm concerned with the texture/feel of tree bark even though I can't feel anything in our wonderland (there she goes insisting again)?

[Wolfeus Silverpaw 301]

Rainbow Dash just told me she wanted to go on a date in a forest in our wonderland (she insisted on that word, for some reason). Is it weird that I'm concerned with the texture/feel of tree bark even though I can't feel anything in our wonderland (there she goes insisting again)?

 

A little weird, but there isn't anything wrong with wanting to feel things and make them real.

 

Sharlina: Ugh, yes! Finally, a chance to talk! *glares at Wolfeus*

 

*smiles nervously and shrugs*

 

Sharlina: *ahem* Anyway, I say go ahead with the date! Maybe she'll kiss you! <3

Don't worry about it too much; being perfectionistic can lead to not doing things at all, and then life is just boring. I wish you two good luck!

[KruegerMeister 54]

A little weird, but there isn't anything wrong with wanting to feel things and make them real.

 

Sharlina: Ugh, yes! Finally, a chance to talk! *glares at Wolfeus*

 

*smiles nervously and shrugs*

 

Sharlina: *ahem* Anyway, I say go ahead with the date! Maybe she'll kiss you! <3

Don't worry about it too much; being perfectionistic can lead to not doing things at all, and then life is just boring. I wish you two good luck!

Oops, should've specified that I was wondering about how the trees would feel to Dash, even though my visualization skills aren't good enough for me to feel them.

 

Also Nina wants to give herself a backstory, cuz "host watched anime marathon->host couldn't stop thinking about character->character became me" is too spontaneous/weird for her. We've got some ideas for history, but not so much an origin, if that makes sense.

Edited November 5, 2015 by KruegerMeister

[Wolfeus Silverpaw 301]

Oops, should've specified that I was wondering about how the trees would feel to Dash, even though my visualization skills aren't good enough for me to feel them.

 

Also Nina wants to give herself a backstory, cuz "host watched anime marathon->host couldn't stop thinking about character->character became me" is too spontaneous/weird for her. We've got some ideas for history, but not so much an origin, if that makes sense.

 

Sharlina: *smiles* don't worry. I have a feeling Dashie won't have any problems with that.

 

Rainbow Dash: You called?

 

Sharlina: Oh! uh, no. Different Rainbow Dash.

 

Rainbow Dash: There's more than one?! Wait, wait, wait. I knew there was another me on the show, but--

 

Sharlina: Not her, either...

 

Rainbow Dash: WHAAAT???

 

Fluttershy: Oh, goodness... I think we broke her... -_-

[KruegerMeister 54]

Sharlina: *smiles* don't worry. I have a feeling Dashie won't have any problems with that.

 

Rainbow Dash: You called?

 

Sharlina: Oh! uh, no. Different Rainbow Dash.

 

Rainbow Dash: There's more than one?! Wait, wait, wait. I knew there was another me on the show, but--

 

Sharlina: Not her, either...

 

Rainbow Dash: WHAAAT???

 

Fluttershy: Oh, goodness... I think we broke her... -_-

[Wait, wait, what?]

 

^This is so cool!^

 

[Hey Dash, do you identify with the Dash on the show? Cuz my host kinda feels like I act how the Dash from the show would act. *shrugs* Meh.]

 

^Oh, uh, this isn't getting all...existential for you two ponies, is it?^

 

What's your guys' opinion on tulpas having backstories/pasts before meeting their hosts?

[Saroth 102]

Dash Tulpas. All the Dash Tulpas.

Now, on to my Dash Tulpa.

 

Anyway, it's been a while since I've posted in this thread. I will admit that I haven't been communicating with RD as much as I should have been the past couple of months due to a metric crapton of schoolwork, and I'm almost a year in to having her, and I've had no form of response. Should I try and keep narrating to her more than before and see what happens, or should I try something else? The only response which I think happened was RD saying my name about 8 months ago.

 

Also, on another topic: DASH'S STUPID MANE

I don't know if my brain is just disintegrating whenever I try to visualize, but I swear I cannot visualize her mane at all. I can visualize her tail, body and face, but not her mane. This has been bugging me for almost the entire time she's been with me :/. Anyone have some advice?

 

PS: Just realized that this is my 1 year anniversary on the forums 

[KruegerMeister 54]

Dash Tulpas. All the Dash Tulpas.

Now, on to my Dash Tulpa.

 

Anyway, it's been a while since I've posted in this thread. I will admit that I haven't been communicating with RD as much as I should have been the past couple of months due to a metric crapton of schoolwork, and I'm almost a year in to having her, and I've had no form of response. Should I try and keep narrating to her more than before and see what happens, or should I try something else? The only response which I think happened was RD saying my name about 8 months ago.

 

Also, on another topic: DASH'S STUPID MANE

I don't know if my brain is just disintegrating whenever I try to visualize, but I swear I cannot visualize her mane at all. I can visualize her tail, body and face, but not her mane. This has been bugging me for almost the entire time she's been with me :/. Anyone have some advice?

 

PS: Just realized that this is my 1 year anniversary on the forums

I know what you mean. I have trouble with my tulpas' hair too. I think that it's because I visualize it and then check if I'm getting it right. Does your Dash show up bald, or with a mane that you're not sure looks right?

 

[What's her personality like? Try doing something she enjoys to provoke a response.]

[Wolfeus Silverpaw 301]

[Wait, wait, what?]

 

^This is so cool!^

 

[Hey Dash, do you identify with the Dash on the show? Cuz my host kinda feels like I act how the Dash from the show would act. *shrugs* Meh.]

 

^Oh, uh, this isn't getting all...existential for you two ponies, is it?^

 

What's your guys' opinion on tulpas having backstories/pasts before meeting their hosts?

 

 

I think that could be a fun thing to do. I would see it as optional, though. Yes, having them hop into existence is slightly weird, but I just go with it.

Sharlina: It's kind of how Joy just appeared in Inside Out when Riley was born. Things don't always need logic and reason. If a tulpa naturally comes into existence (who isn't.... xxxxxxxKristinaxxxxAshpawxxxxxxxx [edited because she started saying naughty words], then I say, let it be!

 

Dash Tulpas. All the Dash Tulpas.

Now, on to my Dash Tulpa.

 

Anyway, it's been a while since I've posted in this thread. I will admit that I haven't been communicating with RD as much as I should have been the past couple of months due to a metric crapton of schoolwork, and I'm almost a year in to having her, and I've had no form of response. Should I try and keep narrating to her more than before and see what happens, or should I try something else? The only response which I think happened was RD saying my name about 8 months ago.

 

Also, on another topic: DASH'S STUPID MANE

I don't know if my brain is just disintegrating whenever I try to visualize, but I swear I cannot visualize her mane at all. I can visualize her tail, body and face, but not her mane. This has been bugging me for almost the entire time she's been with me :/. Anyone have some advice?

 

PS: Just realized that this is my 1 year anniversary on the forums 

 

Rainbow Dash: Visualization comes easy to our host. One trick, though: If it doesn't look right, imagine what it would look like if it did. It's simple advice, but it might help.

[KruegerMeister 54]

I think that could be a fun thing to do. I would see it as optional, though. Yes, having them hop into existence is slightly weird, but I just go with it.

Sharlina: It's kind of how Joy just appeared in Inside Out when Riley was born. Things don't always need logic and reason. If a tulpa naturally comes into existence (who isn't.... xxxxxxxKristinaxxxxAshpawxxxxxxxx [edited because she started saying naughty words], then I say, let it be!

Nina: I'm kinda weirded out by "just hopping into existence". I gave myself a bit of a backstory, but my host said it was "passing the buck"--answering a question in a way that just raises more questions.

Edited November 7, 2015 by KruegerMeister

[Bright Star 78]

Also, on another topic: DASH'S STUPID MANE

I don't know if my brain is just disintegrating whenever I try to visualize, but I swear I cannot visualize her mane at all. I can visualize her tail, body and face, but not her mane. This has been bugging me for almost the entire time she's been with me :/. Anyone have some advice?

Perhaps her mane isn't the same as you're visualizing it as? When I had RainBat with me, she went for a green, blue, purple mane with a red, orange, yellow tail...and also a bat pony.

 

 

Also, while it's still on my mind, do you think it's possible to be able to visit a wonderland without having a tulpa?

[Snake 515]

Perhaps her mane isn't the same as you're visualizing it as? When I had RainBat with me, she went for a green, blue, purple mane with a red, orange, yellow tail...and also a bat pony.

 

 

Also, while it's still on my mind, do you think it's possible to be able to visit a wonderland without having a tulpa?

Yep! Wonderlands and Tulpas are separate, you can have have one without the other!