58 replies to this topic

[brian577]

They constantly treat them like little foals to be cared for. Yet Celestia and Luna didn't found the country, they didn't discover harmony and friendship and unite for a common goal, the ponies did. What makes Celestia and Luna worthy of being leaders at all when their subjects did all the work? So they beat Discord the first time around, big deal. By that logic the Elements of Harmony should be ruling or how about Shining Armor and Cadence. They raise the sun and moon, but unicorns did that before they came along. They're very powerful, but that makes them suited to be military commanders not government leaders. Why should they rule Equestria at all?

[Pinkie]

Hmmmm....Well, because there taller and more princessly looking of course!
...Oh and hey, ever wonder why THEYRE the only ponys that dont age?

Edited by pinkie, 01 August 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[Ethan Pow]

Aren't they both like thousands of years old... so I can see why this is. It comes with wisdom of their years.

[Suigintou]

What I don't get is how they made a flag with the Princesses on it, when the princesses weren't even there yet.
WAT.

[brian577]

Aren't they both like thousands of years old... so I can see why this is. It comes with wisdom of their years.

Wisdom didn't help them found a country. Celestia and Luna didn't do anything besides use brute strength to stop an enemy.

[Dusty Soul]

Celestia and Luna have been alive for thousands of years and they probably will live for alot more. Plus their alicorns and alicorns are usually treated as royalty.

[TheBronyHeart]

Celestia and luna are the after affect of a nuclear war with china and the U.S.... and maybe russia.... they became mutated ponies while the world fell by atomic fire and that was many milenia ago... now all sorts of creatures are running around. but thats besides the point.

Celestia and luna maintained peace in equestria. They have a larger understanding of the world and have more wisdom than any pony.. though they too are subject to faults like the other ponies.. for example... like how she deosn't believe twilight in the last episode and is defeated by chrysalis. But Equestria has been properly maintained for several generations, most likely thanks to their rule.

[Whirlwind]

plz provide evidence Cannon over Fannon
showing that they treat there subjects like children, also you cant rely use diplomacy against discord and the changelings were invading endangering every pony brute strength is necessary

also there both over 1000 years old everypony else is a child compared to them

[brian577]

plz provide evidence Cannon over Fannon
showing that they treat there subjects like children, also you cant rely use diplomacy against discord and the changelings were invading endangering every pony brute strength is necessary

also there both over 1000 years old everypony else is a child compared to them

They always call them their "little ponies" and I don't think they mean it in a physical sense and think they need to learn lessons. When I said they used brute strength to beat Discord I meant they did nothing besides beat an enemy. That makes them good military commanders not good leaders.

Edited by brian577, 01 August 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Whirlwind]

They always call them their "little ponies" and I don't think they mean it in a physical sense and think they need to learn lessons. When I said they used brute strength to beat Discord I meant they did nothing besides beat an enemy. That makes them good military commanders not good leaders.

again your argument is invalid unless you can provide concrete proof
well the show is call my little pony damn it and learning lessons on friendship are what the shows about
also scenario time Discord is reveling in the suffering of pony's for years should Luna and Celestia take the Fluttershy approach and ask nicely

okay tell me this would you like an episode that explains Celestia's dutys in detail showing all of the decision going down the chain of command to the mayor of each city, perhaps something about budget cuts and a rescission that would be a great show for little girls

[JustFairness]

First off, Celestia is a very benevolent (if a little bit prankstery at times) ruler who mostly believes that her subjects should be able to run themselves autonomously. Far as we can tell she doesn't exactly dictate how the government of Ponyville, say, should be run. Further, the "lesson learning" is sort of paternalistic, but Twilight wants to learn about friendship (which is why Celestia let her stay in Ponyville after she defeated Nightmare Moon to begin with). As far as the other Mane Six go, they were admittedly forced into having to do friendship lessons as well, but only because they stood up for Twilight in "Lesson Zero", and even then Celestia only cares if they find them on their own will, interest, and discovery. She's not omniscient, and she doesn't certainly force lessons on them or make sure they are finding them. And to top it off, she hasn't done anything to ensure that other ponies learn lessons.

As far as their legitimacy of power goes, one could say that of any society that came about before the American and French revolutions (and perhaps the Magma Carta, Athens, and Republican Rome as well). The very first motivations for the development of wide-scale social institutions such as national governments are quite complex and mired in the lack of documentation from the time, perhaps much of the way that the events in "Hearth's Warming Eve" and the story of Celestia and Luna's defeat of Discord is somewhat difficult to order and reconcile.

Best I can say is that ponies basically respect Celestia for raising the sun and for the defeat of Discord and Nightmare Moon, and in turn see her as a leader that can protect their basic needs, and Celestia respects them back. It may not be a social contract in the style of the American Constitution, but it works, and it's simply remarkable (miraculous, even) that Celestia hasn't gone corrupt with power, which is part of the reason the so-called "divine right of kings" was questioned in the age of Enlightment and the aristocratic structures of the past were gradually overthrown the world over starting from when Louis XVI had his head chopped off.

Edited by JustFairness, 02 August 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[brian577]

again your argument is invalid unless you can provide concrete proof
well the show is call my little pony damn it and learning lessons on friendship are what the shows about
also scenario time Discord is reveling in the suffering of pony's for years should Luna and Celestia take the Fluttershy approach and ask nicely

okay tell me this would you like an episode that explains Celestia's dutys in detail showing all of the decision going down the chain of command to the mayor of each city, perhaps something about budget cuts and a rescission that would be a great show for little girls

All right I'll buy the idea that they call them little ponies due to pysical size and age in comparison to them. But why should they be the rulers of Equestria? They didn't do any of the work, all they did was beat up a tyrant. They would be hailed as heroes and liberators but that doesn't mean they deserve to be given the keys to the kingdom.

Edited by brian577, 01 August 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[pinkiefan1287]

Now, who says that they didn't do anything after defeating Discord. Maybe after words they help them find areas so other ponies could build towns and expand on the area. They might have also offered to help raise the sun and moon to make it easier on the other unicorns. So showing the power they had, the other ponies might have just thought it would be good for them to rule the kingdom.

Also, what do you mean by the Elements of Harmony should be ruling? The elements are just items that Celestia and Luna brought with them to beat Discord, they aren't livening things. Now if you meant the bearers of the elements should rule that that would also not work. One to what we know only Celestia and Luna could use the elements and the when Clelestia had to use them on Luna when she became Nightmare Moon. Then she lost the powers and they became sealed away.

As for Shining Armor and Cadence I don't think that would work. To what I have seen Cadence has her own kingdom to worry about.

UPDATE

Edited by pinkiefan1287, 01 August 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Whirlwind]

All right I'll buy the idea that they call them little ponies due to pysical size and age in comparison to them. But why should they be the rulers of Equestria? They didn't do any of the work, all they did was beat up a tyrant. They would be hailed as heroes and liberators but that doesn't mean they deserve to be given the keys to the kingdom.

again cannon > fannon you have yet to provide hard evedence.
they rule equestria because they defeated a powerful foe and can do somthing that takes many unicorns so i think they were voted to rule.
hell there alacorns there the perfect candidate because if they wernt there it wouldbe a war between unicorns pegasi and earth ponys to decide who should rule they.
live for thousands of years so there no conflict every time they die to decide a new ruler (which has been the reason for many many wars in human history)
so actualy Hasbro and the MLP team have created the perfect ruler


last thing i'll use skyrim as reference Ulfric storm cloak kills the king then overthrows the empire, and makes him self king, many people respect this desision and not fans argue it.

Edited by PonyEcho, 01 August 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[brian577]

again cannon > fannon you have yet to provide hard evedence.
they rule equestria because they defeated a powerful foe and can do somthing that takes many unicorns so i think they were voted to rule.
hell there alacorns there the perfect candidate because if they wernt there it wouldbe a war between unicorns pegasi and earth ponys to decide who should rule they.
live for thousands of years so there no conflict every time they die to decide a new ruler (which has been the reason for many many wars in human history)
so actualy Hasbro and the MLP team have created the perfect ruler


last thing i'll use skyrim as reference Ulfric storm cloak kills the king then overthrows the empire, and makes him self king, many people respect this desision and not fans argue it.

Now who's confusing fanon with canon? They got over their differences at the end of Hearth's Warming Eve. That's canon. But if we're going to bring up fanon, I think that most likely the three tribes held a representitve governement with a member of each race representing each tribe. Again, Celestia and Luna defeated a powerful enemy but that doesn't make them leadership material. The US doesn't make every soldier who kills an enemy combatant president for a day does it?

Edited by brian577, 01 August 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Whirlwind]

Now who's confusing fanon with canon? They got over their differences at the end of Hearth's Warming Eve. That's canon. But if we're going to bring up fanon, I think that most likely the three tribes held a representitve governement with a member of each race representing each tribe. Again, Celestia and Luna defeated a powerful enemy but that doesn't make them leadership material. The US doesn't make every soldier who kills an enemy combatant president for a day does it?

Hearth's Warming Eve is a mess, how come the equestria flag has two alacorns on it even tho they have yet to encounter them and were does discord fit in, just because there are moments of peace doesnt mean tensions can't rise again, also a unicorn, earth pony and pegasus goverment wouldnt work because each hav a diffrent egenda and it would end up in conflict.

yeah defeating discord may not have but they can single handedly rise the sun and the moon maybe the ponys voted for Celestia and Luna to rule for that reason maybe they showed great diplomatic skills or maybe it is because they are alacorn and serve as the middle party, also you called them tyrand but do you know the dutys of a ruler, i dont think they could fit stuff like that into an episode.

also "The US doesn't make every soldier who kills an enemy combatant president for a day does it?" this is compleatly invalid because your brining RL into a descution about fucking pony and it kinda pisses me off so you know what fuck it iv made my point and im not going to argue with you any more if you going to go to that kind of fucking low.

[TheBronyHeart]

Now, who says that they didn't do anything after defeating Discord. Maybe after words they help them find areas so other ponies could build towns and expand on the area. They might have also offered to help raise the sun and moon to make it easier on the other unicorns. So showing the power they had, the other ponies might have just thought it would be good for them to rule the kingdom.

Also, what do you mean by the Elements of Harmony should be ruling? The elements are just items that Celestia and Luna brought with them to beat Discord, they aren't livening things. Now if you meant the bearers of the elements should rule that that would also not work. One to what we know only Celestia and Luna could use the elements and the when Clelestia had to use them on Luna when she became Nightmare Moon. Then she lost the powers and they became sealed away.

As for Shining Armor and Cadence I don't think that would work. To what I have seen Cadence has her own kingdom to worry about.

UPDATE

woah woah woah... let me stop you there..... what do you mean Cadence has her own kingdom? what is this madness

[CrazyClay]

They call them My little ponies due to the size and how old they are. If I remember correctly If you are at least 1000 years old most 20 yearolds would seem like kids to you. to scale it would be like a 100+ calling a 2 yearold a kid.

[JustFairness]

woah woah woah... let me stop you there..... what do you mean Cadence has her own kingdom? what is this madness

Apparently it's implied from the Season 3 spoilers with the Crystal Kingdom and all, but it could just be speculation.
---
If I could put a different perspective on "Hearth Warming's Eve" for a moment, I've heard some speculate that the events in the play are not precisely the whole story surrounding the founding, due to artistic/historical license and need for simplicity for the audience. It's also been noted that the story plays out more like a creation/founding myth than actual history. It could be possible that the ponies don't really know/remember how they got together and just made up something to satisfy the desire. As I said, the development of our first social institutions has fragmentary evidence at best, but we try to make something out of it. In part, this is why I focused in my last post here on why Celestia (and Luna) are still seen as legitimate rulers despite us not knowing why or how they came about their power in the first place.

Edited by JustFairness, 01 August 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[pinkiefan1287]

woah woah woah... let me stop you there..... what do you mean Cadence has her own kingdom? what is this madness

I take it you have not seen the new season 3 preview song the Crystal Fair. Now I might be wrong, but Twilight in the song says Cadence needs are help. I am just guessing that she rules the Crystal kingdom or something.