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Arguments against the Hive Mind theory.


Magic Man

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After seeing the preview of the second comic, I have to say, I like how they've done Chrysalis' awesome diggs. I much prefer the East European gothic castle than to the baseless fanon hive or hive-mind. Okay, if you know me, you know I've gone on about this a thousand times, but check the title, because this is what this topic is going to be about that very subject.

 

So as states, yes, I hate the hive and hive-mind idea that many have come up for the Changeling species. Why? I mean, after all, the Changelings are insectoid and so a hive-home and hive-mind does make sense, right? Well, yes and no. True, the Changelings are at least part insect and the whole Bee People, Hive-Mind concept has its place in popular culture, but not all insects have a hive mind or system and the Changelings are also at least part equine; the ratio just isn't definite. The truth is, the hive-mind/sytem for the Changelings has no concrete canon evidence to really back it up, so it's a tad confusing why so many people in the fandom think of it as fanon, or canon, or whatever (I'm not all that great with those terms).

 

However, whilst there is little evidence for it, there is also evidence against it and reason why it shouldn't be so for the sake of the Changelings themselves and the plotlines.

 

Okay, so what's my personal gripe about the theory? Mine is mostly because of how much them having a hive-mind/system limits what you can do with the Changelings in terms of writing and story. A hive-mind or them all being her children (which comes with the hive-system) takes away the ability to show Changelings as individuals and in their own groups of friends and family. If it were a hive system and hive-mind, the only way to show one as an individual is to have him break out of it (don't think that's possible), but even then, that isolates him from his own kind and we don't get to see how they interact with each other.

 

There's also the fact that neither in the show or comics does Chrysalis ever once refer to any of the Changelings as her children, just her minions, meaning they are servants under her rule and nothing else. If they really were her children, why not address or refer to them as such?

 

I just think we can do so much more with the changelings than just saying "they all live in a hive, have no individual thought or character except for Chrysalis, and are all her offspring. Done."  To be honest, it seems kind of simple and lazy instead of actually putting thought into a whole society for them.

 

There are other points made by fellow fans I've talked to about this issue.

 

http://intensedebate.com/people/Alondro

 

"Not to mention, it makes it far too easy to defeat the changeling race. Kill queen = game over. And to offset that, there has to be all sorts of rigmarole written in to prevent that from happening too quickly. You can't have direct confrontations with the Queen, because any pony with any sense of strategy will do everything possible to kill her the instant she's in view. And the Queen, if she has any brains, will never let herself come into view of any pony for that very same reason. Even seemingly secured, one can't be sure that the pony prisoners don't have a secret, undetectable assassination weapon or spell. 

Now, that could be offset by having other changelings assume the form of Chrysalis to draw out the assassins and reveal their secrets... but at that point everything gets really complicated and you have to wonder, "Why am I writing this story with colorful ponies again?" 

Because honestly, that type of story doesn't work at all with the setting. It's like crossing Care Bears with James Bond."

 

That, and Chrysalis would then be living in a constant state of panic and fear of death, knowing that hundreds, if not thousands of ponies are actively plotting to kill her and that if she does die, then her entire species goes out with her. She'd be a jibbering wreck.

 

--

 

http://www.fimfiction.net/user/Twilight+is+Magic

 

"It makes perfect sense for changelings to be independent individuals. After all, in order to simply feed, they have to infiltrate a society of sentient beings, and each case of that infiltration is necessarily unique. A single hive mind simply wouldn't be able to handle so many simultaneous, highly complicated individual cases. Their very being necessitates being capalbe of independent judgement and action, and also quite a bit of 'people (pony?) skills'.

 

While changelings may very well have some sort of way of contacting each other and/or the Queen, it would only make them a species of individuals with some telepathic abilities. It'd also make for a greater coordination. In A Canterlot Wedding, they didn't display much of that coordination, which is evidence against both the hive mind theory and this telepathy.

 

The changelings in my so far only story sort of straddle the line. The rank and file changelings are isolated individuals, but Chrysalis can contact the Changeling Commander and thus give orders to her army while not being physically present. Based on their actions in A Canterlot Wedding, when the changeling army attacked at just the right time without any real way of seeing why the time was right, their actions could possibly be explained by this sort of 'uplink'."

 

--

 

Wow, this is getting lengthy, best wrap it up. So this is my and a few other fans reasons for not believing in the hive-mind theory for changelings, and by the looks of the comic, it may not either. What I ask you reading this is what you think of the theory? Do you have other arguments against it or alternatively for it?

Edited by Magic Man
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I don't mind the hive mind theory in general, it would give the Changelings an Enders Game like feel. However I don't feel that canon supports it. Note that I haven't read the comics, so I don't know anything about changelings beyond what I saw in A Canterlot Wedding.

 

Unless I'm dramatically misunderstanding how a hive mind works, if they had one wouldn't Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy's attempts to pass themselves off as changelings have failed miserably? Wouldn't they have realized that they had no mental connection with the Pegasi and then just attacked them? I feel that that disproves the hive mind theory.

Edited by DashForever
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Unless I'm dramatically misunderstanding how a hive mind works, if they had one wouldn't Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy's attempts to pass themselves off as changelings have failed miserably? Wouldn't they have realized that they had no mental connection with the Pegasi and then just attacked them? I feel that that disproves the hive mind theory.

 

Well, I'm not 100% up on the workings of a hive-mind, but I do believe that is very strong evidence. Surely, they would have been able to tell if they were one of theirs or not.

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Having a hive-mind and being dependent on a single queen are not necessarily the same thing. There's a species of Argentinean ant that's colonized much of California in a single colony consisting of millions of hives, each with it's own queen. Kill the queen and the remaining ants latch onto another hive, as all the ants in all the hives work together as one. It's makes actually getting rid of the colony nigh-impossible.

 

The Changelings could simply raise up one of their own to queen status if the current queen is killed or incapacitated. For that matter, having a queen doesn't rule out having other changelings take on the role of breeders, since having a hive-mind means they can coordinate something like that without conflict. The queen's role can then strictly be leadership (if hive-minding is slow or imprecise) and combat, giving the writers plenty of chances to have her show up and take part. I mean, we have a magical fantasy universe here; we can make stuff up if we want.

 

And, of course, you can simply go the route of having the individual Changelings be highly dedicated to their leaders as many of the  ponies are to Celestia. Sure, ones and twos may fracture off and go it alone (and potentially form new hives), but the mass of the swarm will back Chrysalis as long as she seems like she knows what she's doing.

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Why? I mean, after all, the Changelings are insectoid and so a hive-mind does make sense, right? Well, yes and no.

Can you give any example of insects that have centralized intelligence?

Okay, so what's my personal gripe about the theory? Mine is mostly because of how much them having a hive-mind/system limits what you can do with the Changelings in terms of writing and story. A hive-mind or them all being her children (which comes with the hive-sytem) takes away the ability to show Changelings as individuals and in their own groups of friends and family.

Them all having the same mind don't not mean they are have to share the same personality. Take the Andromeda Ascendant's AI from Andromeda. Or the episode of Teen Titans when Beast Boy identically inters Raven's mind.

 

"It makes perfect sense for changelings to be independent individuals. After all, in order to simply feed, they have to infiltrate a society of sentient beings, and each case of that infiltration is necessarily unique. A single hive mind simply wouldn't be able to handle so many simultaneous, highly complicated individual cases. Their very being necessitates being capalbe of independent judgement and action, and also quite a bit of 'people (pony?) skills'.

 

It could be handle by a Swarm intelligence, you know the collective behavior of decentralized, self-organized systems. Swarm Intelligence systems are typically made up of a population of simple agents or boids interacting locally with one another and with their environment. The agents follow very simple rules, and although there is no centralized control structure dictating how individual agents should behave; it it only the local, and to a certain degree random, interactions between such agents that lead to the emergence of "intelligent" global behavior, unknown to the individual agents.
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  • 3 months later...

Personally I have no problems with a hive-mind but, like you said, it means there isn't much you can do with changelings. When each one has it's own personality it makes the story much easier to understand.

 

(and here is one story I found that does not use the hive-mind, per se, anyway here is the link)

 

 

Yeah and more fun, to boot. To me, having them as a hive and hive-mind is simply too easy and a bit of a throw-away.

 

Oh yeah, I've seen that story before, it's pretty good.

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  • 8 years later...

Yeah, In all honesty, some sort of telepathy would work better like

Changeling A wants to say something to B then they could just use telepathy 

But if B is alseep/too busy/ or doesn't wanna talk the connection is shut off 

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