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why do people act like mary sue would be the worst thing to happen to the show?

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#1 FNGRpony

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 05:54 PM

that's total garbage.

 

Discord is by far the most beloved character ever and he's totally mary sue.

 

 

there's an arch type far worse than the all powerful bad ass.

Chris_Thorndyke_by_ARTic_Weather.jpg

 

 

the chris thorn dyke character.

The completely useless character that can't do anything.

 

We can all give thanks that no such character (cough Derpy) exists in mlp.  (okay that was to far but that may well have been derp's character if she stuck around).

 

Could you imagine if they spun spike like this? 
Oh God it would make snips and snails look like amazing tv.

 

honestly if flutter shy wasn't so lovable she wouldn't be that far off.


Edited by FNGRpony, 27 November 2013 - 05:56 PM.



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#2 Clarity

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 05:58 PM

I... don't get it.

 

Mary Sues ruin the show because they're flat. They have no goals, no sense of purpose, no morals, because they're so perfect already.


Edited by Claritine, 27 November 2013 - 06:07 PM.


#3 Scootalove

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:06 PM

Mary Sues can ruin the show due to the fact that they are perfect in every way. Every character has flaws and problems that they go through which means that people can relate to them, but when you have a perfect character that has already accomplished their goals and have no flaws in any way then you will already hate that character already. So, there's your answer. Discord is not a mary sue at all, since he can be defeated and he isn't perfect in every way.


Edited by Scootalove, 27 November 2013 - 06:46 PM.


#4 hawkflame

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:08 PM

I don't think you know what a Mary Sue is. A Mary Sue isn't just a character that's overpowered, they're characters who are treated as being special without really having earned it or are just flat characters who are too perfect. Discord is not that at all.

#5 Otty~

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:39 PM

"Oh no, Twilight! Discord has taken over Equestria again, whatever shall we do?!?!"
"Don't worry! It's me! I am Lightning Danger Bolt Dash, brother of Princess Celestia, daughter of Princess Luna, and father of Luna & Celestia's father! I am also the commander of the Royal Guards, and the leader of the rebellion against Discord. I shall save you!"
 

If that made no sense : Basically, a flat character with no development, personality, enjoyable backstory, and ridiculous features and "dark past" would totally ruin MLP FiM. To have such a horrible character would almost totally ruin everything that makes MLP FiM good.



#6 Declen

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:50 PM

Discord isn't a Mary Sue.

1. Mary Sue is normally a main character. Discord is obviously a supporting character with little screentime so far. Well, exept, of course, the "Return of Harmony" were he was the main antagonist - completely different thing.

2. Mary Sue is a subtype of what you can call an avatar character. Meaning an embodiment of the author. And in case of MS it's a compensatopial embodiment. I don't believe, Discord is an embodiment of anywho, since the whole concept of Discord looks like a ponification of Q

3. Maey Sue kicks asses all the time (to show how awesom and cool she is). In the last episode Discord have done almost nothing.

 

So, no, he isn't.


Edited by Declen, 27 November 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#7 Scootadress

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:10 PM

Discord isn't a Mary Sue.

1. Mary Sue is normally a main character. Discord is obviously a supporting character with little screentime so far. Well, exept, of course the "Return of Harmony" were he was the main antagonist - completely different thing.

2. Mary Sue is a subtype of whar you can call an avatar character. Meaning an embodiment of the author. And in case of MS it's a compensatopial embodiment. I don't believe, Discord is an embodiment of anywho, since the whole concept of Discord looks like a ponification of Q

3. Maey Sue kicks asses all the time (to show how awesom and cool she is). In the last episode Discord have done almost nothing.

 

So, no, he isn't.

OBJECTION!
 

Mary Sues and Self Inserts are not the same. Mary Sues CAN be Self Inserts, but a Self Insert isn't NECESSARILY a Mary Sue. For example:

 

My Immortal (the Harry Potter Fan fic) THAT'S not a self insert. That was a character that was simply..something, it.

 

However, Bella Swan, she's a Mary Sue that just so happens to BE an insert. Inserts can be Mary Sues (You can create a character to meet what you WANT yourself to have) Or they can just be that:Inserts. Inserts aren't necessarily the real problem, its what comes with having an insert.

 

Inserts can actually be a character that fits well. Inserts can have flaws, challenges, etc that they have to overcome. That's what sets them a part. An insert can have flaws, problems, etc and be an insert. A pretty damn good insert, but an insert. Or they can be shit. Mary Sues are mainly those that are shitty. Most Mary Sues ARE bad which is why they are called such. Funny, though, that you can't intentionally make a Mary Sue in a story. Most of the time, its done unintentional. When you TRY to, it comes out as a character.

 

Also, Mary Sues don't necessarily need to kick ass and Mary Sues CAN be secondary characters. Mary Sues can ALSO be antagonists, reminder. 


Edited by Scootadress, 27 November 2013 - 07:11 PM.


#8 Declen

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:25 PM

Mary Sues and Self Inserts are not the same. Mary Sues CAN be Self Inserts, but a Self Insert isn't NECESSARILY a Mary Sue.
Well, I know that.

That's why I called it a subtype of avatar character. Like a set and subset in maths.



#9 Mikami

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:29 PM

Mary, and Gary Sues can be boring. I have a friend who insists Twilight is a defenseless Mary Sue. A bit contradictory, isn't it? Anyways a perfect character who always wins is kind of boring. God, now that I think about it there are way too many Gary/Mary sues in Shonen Anime/Manga.



#10 Kyoshi(Turbo Button)

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:29 PM

Upon reading the apparent qualifications for a 'Mary Sue' in this thread, which by the way that term is annoying as hell, I do not see how people came to that conclusion that Twilight was one or would become one. I mean, she is already more powerful than the mane 6 in terms of overall magic and she will only get more powerful. Growth, which is what she has had.

I can see where a character that matches the definitions above could be bad, but I don't think there is a character like that in the show currently, but even then, it probably wouldn't bother me much.

#11 Declen

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:29 PM

My Immortal (the Harry Potter Fan fic)
Sorry, but I never read even any of original HP stuff, much less any fanfics upon it.

#12 Scootadress

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:33 PM

Well, I know that.

That's why I called it a subtype of avatar character. Like a set and subset in maths.

 

Its not really a subtype though, if you consider it. All Mary Sues TEND to be terrible Self inserts or have some symbol of what makes them "them".) That's why they aren't a subtype. Self Inserts are their own group along with Mary Sues. Black and White. Most of the time, there is a reason why they make the Sue inadvertently. There lacks a subtype. 

 

This is true namely because you just can't make a regular story and force a sue in.  There was a MLP fanfiction that dealt with a pony dubbed Mary Sue who wanted to throw a party. However, nopony came. They all didn't care for her. While she HAD the capacity to be a Sue, she was never due to her flaws that the author accidentally created. Your either or. Self Inserts can be also, considered, just regular characters because you do have to be placed in the shoes of the character. As long as they have flaws and the sort, there's a difference. 



#13 Declen

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:33 PM

I mean, she is already more powerful than the mane 6 in terms of overall magic and she will only get more powerful.
There is allways Her Highness above her. And I just hope it stays that way.

#14 Kyoshi(Turbo Button)

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:37 PM

There is allways Her Highness above her. And I just hope it stays that way.


Well, yeah, there is her, but I see nobody griping about her constantly. Even then, if Twilight eventually does become that powerful down the line, why is that a problem? Sure, if they did it really fast then I could see a slight problem with that, but I am all for character growth.

#15 Declen

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:47 PM

Its not really a subtype though, if you consider it. All Mary Sues TEND to be terrible Self inserts or have some symbol of what makes them "them".) That's why they aren't a subtype. Self Inserts are their own group along with Mary Sues. Black and White. Most of the time, there is a reason why they make the Sue inadvertently. There lacks a subtype.

Hate to say it, but I read your post for three times and stilll don't get it.

Why do you say there a two completely different things? As far as I know, whenever a fic-writer creates a MS, he allways thinks of himself how he wants to look. So: not every avatar character is a MS, but every MS is an avatar character.

Oh, wait: you mean "Self inserts" literally? Like "as is"?


 

 

Well, yeah, there is her, but I see nobody griping about her constantly.

They don't. They just do those frakin comics of Trollestia/Mollestia.

 

 

Even then, if Twilight eventually does become that powerful down the line, why is that a problem?

It may be not a problem as long Twilight has her OCD.


Edited by Declen, 27 November 2013 - 07:51 PM.


#16 Scootadress

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:10 PM

Hate to say it, but I read your post for three times and stilll don't get it.

Why do you say there a two completely different things? As far as I know, whenever a fic-writer creates a MS, he allways thinks of himself how he wants to look. So: not every avatar character is a MS, but every MS is an avatar character.


 

 

They don't. They just do those frakin comics of Trollestia/Mollestia.

 

 

It may be not a problem as long Twilight has her OCD.

 

*Sigh* The MS writer doesn't think of himself when writing most of the time. Have you ever written a story? Or read so many? Many typical YA book or fanfiction that have MS's in them, they don't realize it. 

 

Self Inserts=Characters based off of the author. They can be VERY realistic. They typically can have flaws, challenges, etc. When they are used as their own, they can actually seem pretty amazing.  They also tend to have problems and things that deal with the main characters at times, bit mainly, they aren't straight off the bat loved. (Many stories you see out there the main casts have to warm up to them before anything) They range from crazy to not so much. Many actually attempt to make themselves and show what they are weak to, making them more human. They don't typically ignore their flaws and replace them.

Example:Estonia from Hetalia is an insert created by the creator of the series. He's pretty well liked with flaws and challenges. He's done in a way that shows that self inserts CAN be interesting.

Mary Sues=They are what the writer unconsciously wants at times. They would have the plot be bent for them, they would be everything that they aren't or have characteristics or in a story they wish was real. In fact, they almost always end up having love by everyone except a few outliers. They have no goals that aren't change automatically. Basically, wish fulfillment. 

Example:Bella Swan from Twilight. The creator as pushing it when they look alike, but they also want the same values and sort, just distorted. Bella lacks flaws because the creator can't handle her own. She runs away from her problems. Rosalie, Leah (who actually isn't a mary sue by her) and Lauren all are hated by her. All of them have reasons to be the way they are-typically, they are the only ones that aren't really sues. 

 

See the differences?



#17 Declen

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:34 PM

I've corrected my respond above: looks like it was too late and you didn't see it. Sorry about that.

Mary Sues=They are what the writer unconsciously wants at times. They would have the plot be bent for them, they would be everything that they aren't or have characteristics or in a story they wish was real. In fact, they almost always end up having love by everyone except a few outliers. They have no goals that aren't change automatically. Basically, wish fulfillment.
Well, I know that. But it is still a form of author embodyment. They write about what they want to be.

If you mean "Self insert" literally, like "person as is", than yes, you are right - up to a point. They are two different subtypes of avatar character. Like when you choose a userpic, you can use your real photo or a picture of Superman. There are two different approaches to the same issue - choice of a userpic.

That's why I call it "avatar character", not "Self insert".



#18 Blue Moon

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:55 PM

I don't think Discord would be considered a Mary Sue. The term, "Mary Sue" is used to refer to a character who is perfect in every way, and everything happens in its favor. Discord is far from that; ergo, he is not a Mary Sue.

 

If a Mary Sue were to appear in the show; I don't think it would be the absolute worst thing to happen to it, but I think it would be a bit disappointing, as most of the cast in the show are pretty solid characters, and I don't recall seeing a single Mary Sue.

 

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic seems to have well-made characters down pat, so I don't think a Mary Sue appearing is very likely.



#19 EarthbendingProdigy

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:56 PM

Yes it would be a bad thing what makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue is not just that they are overpowered or have too few flaws, it is their role in the story which also determines whether or not they are a Mary Sue. In other words Celestia if she was a main character could be called a Mary Sue but because she is a secondary character and teacher/mentor figure her being near perfect is a bit more forgivable. The reason why this is bad for a main character is because no matter what the genre the main character/characters at least have to have some semblance of believably and reliability if this does not exist than the character becomes stale and boring and is therefore a Mary Sue. Many Mary Sues also appeal to wish fulfillment fantasies which is all well and good, but they go a bit too far in that direction to truly be believable and relatable characters.



#20 FNGRpony

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:13 PM

Discord isn't a Mary Sue.

1. Mary Sue is normally a main character. Discord is obviously a supporting character with little screentime so far. Well, exept, of course, the "Return of Harmony" were he was the main antagonist - completely different thing.

2. Mary Sue is a subtype of what you can call an avatar character. Meaning an embodiment of the author. And in case of MS it's a compensatopial embodiment. I don't believe, Discord is an embodiment of anywho, since the whole concept of Discord looks like a ponification of Q

3. Maey Sue kicks asses all the time (to show how awesom and cool she is). In the last episode Discord have done almost nothing.

 

So, no, he isn't.

tommy oliver defined a mary sue as a character who can achesive any of his or whole goals with 0 to little effort.

Gentleman i give you discord.  He loses when he does due to screwing around.  I think your all mad because the term mary sue is a smear.  I like discord but he totally is.

When has discord ever been challenged remotely?

 

 

 

the point of the thread was to point out that fans are annoying at over powered when a character can be far more annoying being under powered if two much attention is lumped on them.

 

Kinda like snips and snails.

 

i would call them the chris thorn dykes of the show.  there isn't a official arch type for under powered loser

but he's the most famous so there you go.


Edited by FNGRpony, 27 November 2013 - 10:17 PM.







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