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On the existence of chairs


Silly Druid

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What inspired me to write this entry is this video. Before watching it I haven't realized there is so much controversy over a seemingly simple statement that objects like chairs exist. So let me explain what I think about all this.

First, we need to define what "exist" means. What I mean here is physical existence, as opposed to mathematical existence, which is a different thing. My definition is as follows:

If something exists physically, it means it's a part of a valid description of reality.

But what's reality? According to Philip K. Dick, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." I think it's a pretty good definition, because it captures an important aspect of it: consciousness (there's more about it in my earlier blog entries). Without consciousness there is no reality. Here's my version of the definition:

Reality is everything that can directly or indirectly interact with consciousness.

Which means consciousness is also a part of reality, because it can interact with itself or with another consciousness. But wait, aren't there fictional concepts that can affect our consciousness, like these colorful ponies from MLP? Not exactly. They don't exist, so they can't affect us in any way. What can affect us are the depictions of these fictional concepts, which are existing physical objects. For example an episode of MLP that we watch on our screen is something that exists, while the MLP ponies themselves are not.

Which leaves us with another question, what is "a valid description of reality"? Well, there are many ways we can describe reality. The most basic way (but not very useful in practice), is to take into account the most fundamental elements of it. According to our current knowledge, these are the elementary particles, like quarks, electrons and photons. But we can also think about larger structures built from these fundamental elements, like nucleons, atoms, molecules and so on. When we're not far away from the fundamental level, things (for example specific kinds of molecules) are pretty well defined. But when we move to larger structures like chairs, we need to use fuzzy logic, because there are objects that are "kind of like a chair, but not quite". This way we avoid problems described in the video, like the necessity of defining a boundary line between "chair" and "non-chair", which would mean it's possible to take away one atom from a "chair" to make it a "non-chair". When using fuzzy logic, these problems don't exist, because everything can have a degree of "chairness", and taking away one atom just changes it by a very small amount.

So what we do is to create a more or less vague conditions of what constitutes as a specific kind of object, like a chair, and check if the reality meets these conditions or not (or meets them to some degree). If we observe that it meets them, then we can say that there's a chair. We can also create more "exotic" kinds of objects like "trogs" and "incars" mentioned in the video, the only difference is that they are less useful in practice than the ones we use, like chairs.

So the conclusion is, I think chairs exist, as one of many ways to describe reality.

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If it fits, I sits

it sustains me. It grants me comfort. It's real.

Same with my friends whom I know online. I feel their warmth, their memories and kindness. They're real to me c:

Except for @Sir Done A Lot... he's always done and isn't real. I think he's a bot stuck in the matrix or something D: 

I mean, he can never pass those Capcha tests.... PROOF HE ISN'T REAL
:toldya:

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I think reality exists without consciousness. Are you saying nothing existed before consciousness? Your definition for existence has some fuzzy word, like "valid." How do you know a description is valid? Earth being the center of the universe is a valid description, under the right criteria. It seems that your defintion assumes a consciousness to exist in order for there to be something that is asking for the description. As opposed to a definition that is more like:

Reality is the set of things that interact with each other. Something exists if it is a member of that set.

Therefore, for example, two disjoint sets are separate realities. 

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10 hours ago, Princess Silky said:

If it fits, I sits

it sustains me. It grants me comfort. It's real.

Same with my friends whom I know online. I feel their warmth, their memories and kindness. They're real to me c:

Except for @Sir Done A Lot... he's always done and isn't real. I think he's a bot stuck in the matrix or something D: 

I mean, he can never pass those Capcha tests.... PROOF HE ISN'T REAL
:toldya:

Hey, that actually is a confirmation that I am a real person. Only a literal cyborg with a supercomputer mind can find anything on those stupid tests XD

As for seats... what a beatiful conclusion that makes a perfect sense. After all we name an object a chair only when its properties match those that define chair as a word. Now I wonder what would happen if I decided to, for example, name a plate a chair... :lookup:

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@Brony Number 42

Valid means that what we observe about reality meets the criteria we defined for our description of it. As for Earth being the center of the universe, it's not valid in the sense that there are no observational results that confirm it.

I'm not saying nothing existed before consciousness, because every stage of evolution of the universe depends on the previous stage, so it's still what I call indirect interaction with consciousness. And I still think consciousness is important here, because if there is a set of objects that interact with each other, but there is no one to experience them, then it's not "real" to me. It's just a mathematical abstraction.

I think a modified version of your definition is better than mine: Reality is a set of things, including consciousness, that interact with each other.

But I can't agree with the statement that "something exists if it is a member of that set", because in case of complex objects like chairs it creates all sorts of problems described in the video, like the fact that the chair exists but the atoms that constitute it also exist, so we have a redundancy. I think my version with "valid descriptions" avoids these problems.
 

@Sir Done A Lot

If you name a plate a chair and use it consistently for all plates, then you just changed the language, and your description of reality is still valid. But you won't have a word for chair then, so maybe you should name it a plate...

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17 minutes ago, Silly Druid said:

meets the criteria we defined for our description of it.

I don't understand what this means.

18 minutes ago, Silly Druid said:

there are no observational results that confirm it.

I look at the stars and they move while I do not. This is an observation that interacts with my consciousness.

Are you saying that a universe without a consciousness cannot exist? If every conscious mind died would the universe stop existing? How is the universe more real after the evolution of consciousness than before? Is something real before a consciousness became aware of it? If you say atoms exist even before they were discovered, then they didn't need any consciousness to exist.

This talk about fuzzy definitions is not a problem in science but is only a problem in philosophy. An atom is atom and it does what it does. A collection of atoms arranged in a certain way will do what they do regardless of whether or not some primate puts his butt on it and calls it a chair. So what? Fundamentally it all comes down to mathematics. I can define in words what an electron is, and you can argue it. But an electron is a set of quantum numbers that parameterize the solution to an equation. If you ask what it is, then I point to a quantum mechanical solution. It has a mass, charge, and spin.

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20 minutes ago, Brony Number 42 said:

I don't understand what this means.

If we define a set of properties that a chair should have, and we observe something that meets these properties, then we can say it's a chair.

22 minutes ago, Brony Number 42 said:

I look at the stars and they move while I do not. This is an observation that interacts with my consciousness.

That's true, but it's not clear that it means Earth in the center of the universe.

22 minutes ago, Brony Number 42 said:

Are you saying that a universe without a consciousness cannot exist? If every conscious mind died would the universe stop existing? How is the universe more real after the evolution of consciousness than before? Is something real before a consciousness became aware of it? If you say atoms exist even before they were discovered, then they didn't need any consciousness to exist.

Time is just another dimension, not very different from the spatial dimensions. When thinking about the universe as a whole, we should think about it as the spacetime in its entirety. If it contains consciousness, then I consider it real. If not, it's just an abstract mathematical object. So it exists mathematically, but not physically.

26 minutes ago, Brony Number 42 said:

This talk about fuzzy definitions is not a problem in science but is only a problem in philosophy. An atom is atom and it does what it does. A collection of atoms arranged in a certain way will do what they do regardless of whether or not some primate puts his butt on it and calls it a chair. So what? Fundamentally it all comes down to mathematics. I can define in words what an electron is, and you can argue it. But an electron is a set of quantum numbers that parameterize the solution to an equation. If you ask what it is, then I point to a quantum mechanical solution. It has a mass, charge, and spin.

I agree with everything you said here, and I don't think it contradicts anything I said. This blog entry is about philosophy, not physics. The kind of "problems" we're talking about here don't exist in physics.

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Quote

According to Philip K. Dick, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

ooh I like this definition :3

Quote

Reality is everything that can directly or indirectly interact with consciousness.

there seems to be another aspect of what Philip's getting at - it seemed to be there before you or anyone became conscious too, which differentiates the existence of non-fictional things from fictional ones. I'm gonna say everything that only gains its meaning due to consciousness acting on it 'fictional'. because that is is silly :3

Chairs are semi-fictional. It is made of 'simples' but is characterised by consciousness. Twilight Sparkle is entirely fictional. No 'simples' in her. The photons hitting the bag of your big fleshy human eyes as you read that are only fictional to the extent that when you begin to think about them they become an idea of an atom rather than an atom, but they clearly seem like they existed before you or anyone was conscious. They are the most simple of simples. Although I know there are crazy tiny mewing little bitty bits of atoms too

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33 minutes ago, abrony-mouse said:

I'm gonna say everything that only gains its meaning due to consciousness acting on it 'fictional'. because that is is silly :3

I don't think about it in terms of specific things gaining their meaning due to consciousness, although there are some people who do it, and ask questions like "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" or "Is the moon there when nobody looks?"

How I see it is that the entire universe gains its meaning if consciousness is in it, and by entire universe I mean all the spacetime. Many of the comments you and @Brony Number 42 make here are "time-centric", speaking about things that existed before consciousness, or will exist after it. I don't see it like that, as I said time is just another dimension, so you can ask the same kind of questions about distant regions of space. By definition, the universe consists of things that interact with each other, so if at least one of these things exists, all of them exist.

You can say universes without consciousness exist, but, as I noticed in an earlier blog entry, if they didn't exist, nobody would notice any difference. So this kind of existence is pretty pointless to me, that's why I don't consider it real.
 

41 minutes ago, abrony-mouse said:

Chairs are semi-fictional.

I can agree with that. While things like atoms are pretty well-defined, chairs are only vaguely defined, so the description of reality involving them is not 100% rigorous and accurate.

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eep true D: thinking about things in themselves without even grounding them in time is hurting my pony brain though. I think you end up with consciousness not as a process but as something else at the end. I shall call this consciousness 'sparky' since it illuminates everything. Sparky obviously has to have a consciousness-process in order to exist, at least according to the best Sparky can come up with, but Sparky is prolly the only thing that really exists so even that is possible to doubt. As for simples, Sparky breathes life into them, like all things, but he understands the difference between your eye atoms, Twilight Sparkle as a fiction of consciousness-processes and semi-fictional things like chairs.

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@Silly Druid

Existence is merely what we percieve through our minds. What we see is merely photochemical signals interpreted by our brains. The nature of consciousness is one of the greatest mysteries of all time. 

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@abrony-mouse I like your spark metaphor, it reminds me of Stephen Hawking's question: "What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?" I believe that thing is consciousness. If the universe described by the equations contains it, it is enough to "self-breathe fire" into them. And a fire starts with a spark...

@Props ValRoa It is true that what we perceive directly are the "photochemical signals interpreted by our brains", but I believe these signals originate from something more than them, something that is "out there". Thanks to these signals, we have some information about that something, and we call it "reality".

I agree with you about consciousness, for me it's the biggest mystery in the universe, because everything else can be more or less described by our scientific knowledge. Of course we don't know everything, but in general we have a pretty good idea what's going on, and we can use the reductionist approach to explain larger things by their smaller parts. Consciousness is different, we have no idea whatsoever how to connect it to anything else. We have some knowledge about how the brain works, but it doesn't explain our subjective experience at all. I believe it must be something more fundamental than just a side effect of processing information in the brain.

 

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@Silly Druid

I am inclined to believe that just as matter and energy cannot be destroyed, Consciousness itself cannot be destroyed or created. It has existed, and will forever exist. It takes on different forms. I am also inclined to believe that Consciousness is not merely a physical process of neurons firing within the brain in certain patterns. 

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