Yellow Diamond

Given the volume of negativity and outright disparaging remarks directed toward specific individuals, I am locking this thread. While discussing controversy isn't prohibited, losing sight of the actual people involved and attacking them is, in blunt terms, not cool. Also, don't post links to Encyclopedia Dramatica. That site contains a plethora of explicit content which has no place on MLP Forums.

Hey there, everypony! Just a quick update: we've merged two threads on waifus, one of which was originally in Sugarcube Corner. The reason for the move and merger had to do with the fact the thread in SCC was not limited to MLP characters. Continue at your leisure -- but know Elsa is mine. All mine.

To be clear, I didn't mean to drive you from the conversation. ^^; I happen to have been thinking about Frozen and its characters recently, so my defense may seem more passionate. I nonetheless encourage you to re-watch Frozen, and then perhaps take a look over at the movie's TV Tropes page. TV Tropes is often very helpful for dissecting media.

Locked doors and other fabricated barriers (e.g., Elsa's gloves; the mountains) -- indeed, Frozen employs a good deal of symbolism drive home its story and characters. I'm in agreement with what you've said, that the final product illustrates Anna as something more than what her surface attributes may imply. In comparing Luna and Anna, I quite agree that the former lost sight of the things truly closest to her heart, whereas Anna was prone to misreading the signs (e.g., the "romance" with Hans) because, as you said, she's immature and isolated. I furthermore had the sense -- and this is relying solely on the show rather than the supplementary materials -- that Luna's isolation was in large part self-imposed, and in that way she and Elsa were more alike. The difference between the two of them is that Luna expressed her frustration in the form of tyranny and jealousy, or "if they don't love me, I'll make them love me" -- a response which is actually more reminiscent of Hans. Elsa, on the other hand, simply wanted to be left alone; it was Anna who helped her recognize the joy of having friends and loved ones. As it stands, though, it's hard for me to draw a straight line between the two sets of sisterly relationships. I wholeheartedly disagree. The first act of the film was almost entirely dedicated to establishing their shared history. The whole point of "Do You Want To Build a Snowman?" was that both of them were living in different forms of isolation; yet they ultimately wanted to be together. Consider the fact that the first thing Elsa creates when she's in the mountains is Olaf, a snowman that she and Anna built as children (their final happy memory together): it's the tacit "yes" she always wanted to say to Anna but never felt at ease enough to pursue. But, for want of a lame pun, we should bear in mind that sometimes people are frozen in time. Anna and Elsa necessarily share limited mutual development because that's how they've lived most of their lives: Anna pursues Elsa's company, but Elsa shuts her out. They're stuck in a loop, albeit one which escalates as Elsa's powers grow stronger. Frozen explores the lengths one (i.e., Anna) will go to rekindle what was lost; in other words, it's very much a tale of love frustrated (in more ways than one). Contrast this to MLP: the emphasis on Celestia and Luna's past as displayed in the show was about the rift that grew between them. We're not treated to much background on the matter in the series opener prologue other than that Luna became increasingly jealous of Celestia; she was, in some literal sense, in her older sister's shadow. The resolution is quickly wrapped up at the end of "Friendship is Magic", largely because time was at a premium and the narrative's focus resided with Twilight and her friends. I think the real attractiveness of Celestia and Luna's dynamic is what is left unsaid: what drove Luna to basically unleash the apocalypse on her own world? Did Celestia in fact do her best to assuage her sister's fears, or did she brush them off in the midst of other concerns (i.e., governing Equestria)? I'm hesitant to start drawing from the comics because they aren't acknowledged within the show's central canon. (I know there have been comments to the effect of describing the comics as having some sort canonical basis, although Andy Price admitted it's up to the reader to decide. If left to decide for myself, I would consider the comics as extracanonical, or non-canon, as a main element of canonical status is official consensus on the material's authority.) As far as the show is concerned, the mystery of Celestia and Luna's falling out is by and large preserved at present. That's fine by me, to be honest.

Time is an economy onto itself; they only have 90 minutes for the movie, so they need to choose their scenes carefully. In all honesty, "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?", "For the First Time in Forever", "Love Is an Open Door", and, of course, "Let It Go" all did a splendid job spelling out the characters; also, given the themes of the film, "More Than Just a Spare" would have been out of place, seeing as Anna's ultimate concern was connecting with Elsa, not obsessing over being second fiddle to her older sister. I imagine it would be like Twilight singing about how she and her friends might grow apart during the events of "The Crystal Empire." It's a legitimate concern of sorts, but not one central to the story's premise.

I think this implies that not changing one's character through the course of the story necessarily means they're one-dimensional -- but what about characters who are interesting because they do not, in fact, alter themselves despite the crisis they must weather? For example, in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, the fact that Steve Rogers did not compromise his own moral compass is one reason why the movie was so interesting (at least I think so). He didn't encounter a profound alteration in terms of his overall worldview. A refusal to change can therefore serve as an interesting narrative device. On another note, though, both Anna and Elsa do go through their own respective character arcs: Elsa learns that running away from one's problems does not solve them, and Anna discovered that the world can be difficult but still requires the response of a caring heart. Elsa obviously outright states and demonstrates her perspective change, but I don't think that detracts from the subtlety of her journey. Interestingly, there was a song cut from Frozen, entitled "More Than Just a Spare", that had Anna lamenting how she is always in her sister's shadow and will never become the heir. At the end of the song, however, she accepts her role as she realizes being available to those who need you is very important. Clearly the song never made it into the film, but as the notes to the track state, it was helpful for the writers in better understanding Anna's character and why she behaved the way she did. If we feel inclined to use MLP's supplementary material (i.e., media from outside of the show), I think it's fair to point toward this song and acknowledge there's more to Anna than a cute, bumbling charmer.

I don't think there's a clean analogue between Elsa and Anna and Celestia and Luna, despite the fact both relationships suffered from emotional turmoil. One of the underlying threads of Frozen was that neither Elsa nor Anna were in much of a position to effectively lead their kingdom: Elsa lived in constant fear of her own powers, and Anna was naive as a byproduct of her social isolation. The two of them had to make a journey -- both in the physical and emotional sense -- to discover their respective strengths and overcome their shortfalls. Contrast that with Celestia and Luna: both were prepared to lead Equestria by the time of their first confrontation with Discord. Even when Luna entered her descent into darkness, Celestia appeared more than capable of ruling Equestria on her own -- a fact born out over the course of Luna's banishment. We've never seen Celestia learn a lesson about who she is or what her role may be; presumably that occurred well in advance of the any of the events displayed in the show. Luna had to learn her lesson the hard way (i.e., being banished in the moon), but her brief existence as Night Mare Moon hardly seems to count as her "let it go" moment. If we try and compare Luna and Elsa, we are likely going to draw the conclusion that the two of them were motivated by very different factors: Elsa wanted (at least initially) to be left alone; Luna, in becoming Night Mare Moon, wanted the adoration of her subjects; Elsa's exile was self-imposed; Luna's exile was forced upon her because she knowingly threatened the whole of Equestria. Jeric is right to identify jealousy fueling Luna's actions as Night Mare Moon, whereas fear and anxiety pushed Elsa to the fringe of society. Whilst I can see how someone might draw a connection between Luna and Elsa, their similarities do not run as deeply as a first glance would suggest. Anna doesn't fit neatly with either Celestia or Luna. She's adorkable, not unlike how Luna is throughout "Luna Eclipsed"; however, Luna seems to very quickly grasp social conventions after the episode and takes her job far more seriously. Much of Anna's actions stem from her intuitive, well-meaning spirit, whereas Luna appears to take after Celestia and play things more carefully. In other words, Anna is often like the well-intentioned bull in the china shop: she might cause a mess, but she's doing so because she cares so much. I don't see that in Princess Luna's character -- and certainly not in Celestia's occasionally playful yet composed attitude. There exists too large of an experience gap -- and therefore a confidence gap -- between Elsa and Celestia. We've almost always seen Celestia when she is in near total command of a situation; on the other hand, Frozen focused heavily on Elsa not being in command of her destiny, even when she thought she had discovered liberation in isolation. It's easy to forget, I think, that Elsa is still fairly young (21 years of age, if I'm not mistaken) and lacks comfort in most social engagements. She hasn't developed the skills of a a chess master like Celestia or, say, Nick Fury. Who knows whether that is even her calling. (My goodness. I just compared Elsa, Celestia, and Nick Fury in the same thought. I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed.)