BastementSparkle

I think the difference between G4's gross out humor and G5's is just that G4 seemingly did it less often. There's only a couple of examples of it across 9 seasons. The Spike's feet joke, the gross pie, Baby Cakes, one or two instances of a pony really having to pee and a whoopee cushion joke is all I remember. Meanwhile this is already the third time I think we've had fart jokes in Tell your Tale. I do in fact remember some people complaining about the bits of toilet and gross-out humor in G4 when it happened but it wasn't really common enough to bother anyone much. I don't mind toilet humor, I'm desensitized to it and can find it funny if the joke is good enough. I don't think it's funny in G5 but also am not majorly bothered by it, but it's probably the frequency of it that's annoying some people.

Luna seriously got the short end of the stick with this arc. Not only would she have reason to want to stay on the throne for longer due to the thousand years she missed, but also because of her other motivations. The whole reason Luna became Nightmare Moon and turned on her sister in the first place was because she felt she and her night wasn't getting the same appreciation her sister was. She wanted to be loved and adored the way her sister was. But now in the modern day it seemed to me like Luna was starting to get that love and appreciation she wanted, with things like the ending of "Luna Eclipsed" or "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep" it seemed to me like Luna was getting more of what she wanted. On top of that, Luna clearly feels remorseful for becoming Nightmare Moon and leaving Equestria without her for a thousand years, to the point where she literally created the Tantabus to torment her in her dreams. She got over that self-harm, but to me it seemed she wanted to atone by helping to defend Equestria and being a better leader. But come Season 9, that's all gone. Luna's unique situation of having been gone for a thousand years is never acknowledged and she's treated as if she's just been around the whole time like Celestia. Her desire for the love of her subjects that she so dearly wanted before? Gone. Her desire to atone and be the leader Equestria deserves? Gone. At the very least I'd expect her to be conflicted, to wonder if she truly wants to retire or not, to have to think on it. But the season never explores her reasoning or tries to make any sense of her decisions. Luna was simply stripped of all her unique history and motivations for this plotline. The most tragic part is that by doing this, from a Meta sense the writer's have reduced Luna to being exactly what she never wanted to be: Celestia's Shadow.

And as I pointed out earlier, I disagree with that because it isn't necessary. Twilight doesn't Need to be the ruler, it isn't an emergency situation, the Princesses just want to retire. There's no indication that there is any rush. They can wait longer or find some other solution if Twilight doesn't want to. Twilight shouldn't have to do this, if she chooses to anyway then fine, but her personal agency is important. If the Princesses were dead or something and they needed a ruler right now, then sure. Twilight can set aside her own wants and step up to the plate. But in the situation in the show? She should think about it and decide what she really wants to do with her life, she shouldn't feel obligated. I suppose so.

The point I'm trying to make is that one doesn't exist to serve their parents. If my parents decided they wanted me to be a Doctor that doesn't mean I have to be one. If they had some family business and they wanted me to take over that doesn't mean I have to. If Jimmy's parents want Jimmy to be a scientist and that's their big plan for him and everything they do is to push him to that goal but Jimmy would rather be an artist, well tough luck for them. Jimmy doesn't exist to please them, Jimmy can do what he wants with his life. Obviously to keep it on topic if Celestia wanted to retire and for Twilight to take over ruling but Twilight decided she didn't want to, well Twilight should have that freedom. Same thing if we were talking about something Twilight Velvet or Night Light wanted her to be.

Interesting speculation. Still, this is a family cartoon intended to teach good morals to kids. I think from that perspective it'd have been far less questionable of it to show Twilight being offered the chance to take up the role of Princess without all the "Pressure" around it. If she decides to take it up anyway, not only would it feel less questionable but it'd also be more inspiring. Knowing that Twilight has the option to turn it down and maybe has even considered it, but seeing her decide to step up to the plate anyway would make it seem more noble and give a stronger feeling of agency for her. Other than just my moral issues with it another frustrating part of Season 9 is that despite Twilight getting such a big position it doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment for her. Heck, they could probably even have accomplished something like this just by writing the premiere a bit differently. Have the Princesses ask Twilight if she wants to rule, she "Twilights" over the idea, her friends offer their support and confidence in her, no matter what she decides. Then the whole beating Sombra thing is what makes her decide that yeah, she is willing to rule Equestria. This would make it more clear the only issue was her confidence holding her back, and by making it very clear she's got a choice it doesn't feel forced onto her.

Just to make it clear, I don't "Choose" to see it negatively. I want to like Season 9. I had these issues initially when I watched the season, but I tried to brush them off because the season was just starting and I figured my concerns would be addressed. Then they weren't addressed and it really bothered me. I even rewatched Season 9 with the specific intent of finding more reasons to enjoy it, because I felt maybe I was being too harsh on it and despite actively trying to like it I still came out disliking it even more. I don't want to have these problems with the writing, I don't choose to, it's my honest opinion and thoughts whether I want them to be or not. Still, yeah. It does seem like it's an "Agree to Disagree" situation.

I'm not ignoring it. It is a canon part of the show and I acknowledged it. I simply said said it feels unearned and insincere due to the writing issues. None of them said she had to, but none of them ever asked her if she wants to or took her concerns seriously, and the Princesses did not frame it as a choice but simply told her to do it. Every response they have is just telling Twilight she can do it and to stop worrying, no concern given to the idea that she may or may not want to. I am not ignoring that Twilight has a mind of her own and can make her own choices, I'm very aware that she does. I'm acknowledging a very real flaw in Twilight that she's frightened of letting Celestia or others down and sometimes goes to ridiculous lengths to make them happy. "Lesson Zero" happened entirely because of her fear of letting Celestia down. This is not a flaw I feel she ever fully got over, so I think it's a very valid thing for me to worry about that Twilight might feel pressured and like she has to do something to make Celestia and her friends happy. The peer pressure is in how the Princesses don't give Twilight a choice and all anyone ever offers her in response to her concerns is confidence in her abilities. All of them just make it clear they just want Twilight to do this thing and none of them ever even seemingly stop to consider what Twilight wants. I'm sure the writers were simply trying to portray their confidence in Twilight, but it came out super poorly. This is very much a kind of pressure, I have been subject to this kind of pressure a lot, I'm rather familiar with it. Also, are you seriously using that bit from "Return of Harmony" as your example? The bit where she's been totally crushed by seeing all of her best friends turned into jerks by Discord and has totally lost hope, even turning grey like they are to make it clear just how hopeless she's become and how Discord has "Gotten" to her just like he did all the others, even if not in the same way? That wasn't Twilight making a confident choice based on what she wants, that was Twilight's spirit being broken. Here, I'll help you out. A far better example, and the only one of Twilight going against Celestia knowing she'll disappoint her in the show is when she decides to let Spike take the Crystal Heart instead of her, despite Celestia having told her that she had to be the one to do it. So she can at least go against Celestia when lives are at stake, but I'm still not convinced she can do it for her own self. I don't want to think of the Mane 5 and Celestia as bad people, let me make that clear. I love these characters. I think they're great people. The problem is that Season 9 portrayed them incredibly poorly, I feel the writing of Season 9 is what thinks lowly of them, not me. My issue is that they deserved far better than how they were portrayed. I'm sure the writers didn't intend for them to come off as badly as I feel they do, but due to the poor writing of the season it's how things come off to me.

Okay, see, this kind of logic would work if Twilight was taking over because she had to. If it was a situation like back in the Season 4 premiere where Celestia and Luna had gone missing, or they were dead, or they were made unable to rule for some reason and Twilight was the best possible successor, so she had to put her own wants aside to take over for the good of others, I'd be fine with that. But we're given no indication that this is the case, the Princesses just want to retire, they don't necessarily need to, and so this is absolutely a situation where Twilight should have the freedom to choose. Especially since she didn't even know Princesses retiring was an option so she had no clue this was coming. If Twilight turns the offer down, what's to stop Celestia and Luna from just continuing to rule? Or finding another successor? Or working something else out? Twilight doesn't even have to take over ruling to continue protecting Equestria, she can keep doing that anyway. Now, if Twilight decides to take over ruling anyway because she thinks Celestia and Luna deserve a break and she's willing to take on that kind of burden, that's fine. It's her choice. But the Princesses needed to make it clear that she had that choice rather than just telling her to do it, and her friends should take her concerns seriously and make sure she's not only ready but willing to do this and that they aren't all pressuring her. How hard would it have been to write the Princesses just asking Twilight if she was willing to rule from now on? And Twilight considering it but deciding to? And the other characters all making sure she knows they'll all be supportive and understanding no matter what choice she makes? I'd have been A-okay with her becoming ruler then. The future segment comes off as entirely insincere because of this issue to me. It tries to portray it as a happy ending when I don't feel like that happy ending has been earned by the writing. Also, did she think she had a choice in where she ruled from? Because she didn't seem to want to rule from Canterlot at all, seemed like she would have chosen to rule from Ponyville if she felt she could. Really comes off like she thought she had to rule from Canterlot. Even if she is happy in the future, she might have been happier staying in Ponyville and I'm not convinced she didn't force herself to make that sacrifice despite her desires due to everyone pushing her into it. You're acting like peer pressure isn't a thing, if all of someone's friends try to pressure someone into doing something would you say they aren't wrong? Like, sure the person still has responsibility for what they do or agree to, but that doesn't mean everyone else isn't at fault for how they treated them. I don't want to think so negatively of these characters either, they're some of my favorite fictional characters ever, but Season 9 portrayed everything so poorly how am I not supposed to? If I have a genuine moral issue with the writing am I simply supposed to ignore it? I don't think this debate is pointless at all, because as I said above, this is not a situation where Duty NEEDS to trump wants, so wants absolutely should be respected.

Whoops, accidently posted instead of editing.

Yes, kids often take after their parents in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean they aren't also different, sometimes drastically so. Even if they are extremely similar to their parents that still doesn't mean they're just an extension, they are their own beings regardless of any similarities. They have their own thoughts, feelings, wants, fears, etc. Celestia never offered ruling to Twilight as a choice and didn't make sure that Twilight wasn't just going along with it to avoid disappointing her. Except if you are close friends with someone, and you know they have trouble speaking up for themselves and you try to push them into doing something huge that they might not want to without even giving them a choice, knowing that and not caring about it then you're taking advantage of them and not being a good friend. Justifying it as "Well, it's their own problem" doesn't make it okay. Twilight has repeatedly demonstrated a big problem with being terrified of disappointing Celestia and doing crazy things just to please her. It is not an issue I feel she had ever fully overcome, it was relevant even in Season 8, it is an issue that Celestia understands Twilight has and should be concerned about. Yes, Twilight is very smart and capable but she's also a neurotic mess who has a tendency to break down sometimes, especially when her mentor is involved. I'm sure she could say no, but would she? Even if she wanted to? Or would she put pleasing Celestia above her own wants? Because I could totally see her doing that and Celestia should totally see that as a possibility too. Especially with Luna and her own friends in the mix all just egging Twilight on to accept. Everybody else seems to want Twilight to be Princess a million more times than she wants it, and nobody, not once ever asks her what she wants. I assume ponies bathe and eat and such because that's an irrelevant thing that doesn't matter to the narrative at all. Twilight's agency as a person and wants for her own life are important for a story arc like this, so they absolutely should have been in the season. You can't just brush off critically important stuff being lacking with "Maybe it happened off-screen", especially when it wasn't ever even suggested it happened off-screen. Celestia doesn't have to be malicious or not care about Twilight to do this, maybe she's just so caught up with her own excitement she's failing to take into account what others feel, or she just assumes she knows best for Twilight so much that the idea that maybe she doesn't never pops into her head. But whatever the reasoning the way they handled things with Twilight in Season 9 was wrong and that the show doesn't acknowledge it is frustrating and it did seriously make me question her and Luna's judgement.

Not even sure what your point is. It's not about Twilight hating or not hating Celestia. It's about Twilight being free to make her own choices, making sure she doesn't have to do something just to please Celestia or others around her, recognizing that she's her own person who's desires and wants also matter. It's about Celestia making sure that Twilight actually wants to rule, that she has a choice in the matter, that she can say no and that would be okay. We're not talking about an actual child here, we're talking about an adult. When I said Celestia is like Twilight's second mother I was talking about it with the context that she helped to raise Twilight, but Twilight is clearly a grown-up. Obviously she should be making her own choices. You realize that one's children are their own people, right? They aren't extensions of their parents, it's a parents job to raise, care for and teach them and yes that involves making quite a few decisions for them while they're young, but it doesn't mean controlling their whole lives. Twilight isn't an extension of Celestia anymore than she's an extension of Twilight Velvet. She's Twilight Sparkle.

If I had a child I'd want to make sure they recognize they are their own person and can make their own choices, I wouldn't want to force my desires for their life onto them or control them anymore than is necessary. Happy and safe is good, happy and safe and making their own choices is even better. How do we know Twilight wouldn't have been happier staying in Ponyville with her friends and continuing to run her school, spreading friendship without the other responsibilities of a ruler? She might have been, I think there's a good chance she would have. I would have wanted for Celestia and Luna to make it more clear to Twilight that she actually has a choice in whether or not she wants to be ruler. If she does end up ruling, I'd have liked it to be entirely because she chose to do so and wanted to do so. At no point did Season 9 convince me this was the case or even make an attempt to. Twilight's "Accomplishment" of becoming ruler of Equestria in Season 9 hardly feels like an accomplishment because at no point did it feel like something she ever really chose, more so something the narrative and all the other characters just pushed her into unnecessarily and she just went along with it.

Season 9 really damaged my opinions on Discord and the Princesses. I thought Discord had grown past the point of being a threat to the world long ago, but Season 9 showcases that he clearly hasn't. It's mindboggling that we have two entire seasons (Season 4 and 9) after Discord's initial reformation where he's the cause of all the problems, and he's only ever been genuinely helpful once, back in Season 6. Considering he's had like 7 seasons to grow and it was the end of the show, it sorta makes it seem like Discord just isn't going to improve and is arguably even more of a threat as a "Reformed" villain than he was as a real one. As for the Princesses, the way they go about getting their retirement and how uncaring they were of Twilight's concerns or the effect it would have on her life just made them seem incredibly selfish. They've earned their retirement if they want it now, though it is real weird that Luna wants it considering she's only just gotten back, but that doesn't excuse how they went about it. Also, allowing Discord to pick the trio's punishment after he spent all season long manipulating the three of them just felt super unjust of them, real vengeful. It was shown back in Season 3 that disappointing Celestia was Twilight's worst fear. This is a flaw I'm not convinced she's ever overcome, considering it was relevant as recently as Season 8's "Horse Play", and Celestia knows it. Yet she still never asks Twilight if she actually wants to rule or treats it like a choice, just tells Twilight that's what she and Luna are doing and it's Twilight's turn now. Even as Twilight panics about it she never shows any particular concern about this. Celestia is not just Twilight's teacher, but also her friend and even practically a second mother, if she truly cares for Twilight she should make sure this is something Twilight genuinely wants and that she understands it's acceptable for her to say no. If someone has a friend and that know they have a hard time saying no out of fear of disappointing them and they take advantage of that, they are a bad friend. Celestia is a bad friend in Season 9, so is Luna frankly. Honestly, kind of everyone is, as nobody ever really shows any concern for Twilight's wants or feelings.

I'm not sure I'll be able to muster up any sympathy for him at this point. Not after what he did in Season 9 and the ease with which it was brushed off and he got away with it, not even being called out for all of his crimes. I hope they portray him well, but at this point unless the series gives him a whole second redemption arc that fully acknowledges all he did wrong I just don't think he can win me back.

Possibly, but it'll feel real weird if they delve into this stuff in the comics but don't touch it with the show. Discord was actually one of my favorite characters for most of the series. I hated what he did in Season 9 so much that it just totally dropped my opinion of him like a rock. If he's just up to his usual tricks here I'm not going to have any patience for it.

Really not sure on this. I didn't really want a sequel series to G4 in the first place and so far G5 still hasn't sold me on the idea. I was kind of hoping they'd leave the fates of G4 characters open, and let G5 stand on it's own. But now they're bringing back Discord in the very first comic. I just want G5 to be it's own thing.

I was like that for most of the show, but Season 9 manages to turn me into a Quibble Pants type person every time I think of it without fail.

Well, purely ideas wise I have liked 99% of fan suggested ideas for Season 9 more than what they actually did with Season 9, so I don't entirely agree with that. But most fans aren't professional writers, so of course it's kind of a given they might not be able to actually write those ideas as well, doesn't invalidate their criticisms though.

I'd argue that "Best Gift Ever" also has him be actually helpful. Yeah, the Winterchilla turns into a monster and wrecks part of the castle, but he genuinely helps Fluttershy get a gift she actually likes and get to be the Hero of Hearth's Warming, helps Rainbow get Fluttershy a gift that makes her happy rather than just a candle, and even ends up helping the Winterchilla itself since it was lonely. It was manipulative but everyone involved genuinely comes out better for his plan. Between that and the Season 9 premiere, two episodes that were literally back to back, it really made it seem like Discord had figured out how to be a genuinely good trickster mentor who really could help his friends in his own way. Then like you said, they pull off the twist that threw that and any other development Discord could have been argued to have right out the window for the sake of "Subversion".

Nobody in this thread was hating on other fans who liked it though, all criticism and "Negativity" was aimed at the series ending itself. I'm sorry you've had people act that way to you, but I understand perfectly well that it's not good to hate on people for a simple difference of opinion. Especially on a cartoon of all things, but that's a two-way street. I've gotten plenty of hate too, I've been told I should leave the fandom plenty of times for my opinions on the finale, been told I was "Not a real fan", even had people say I was the kind of terrible person who sent death threats to the writer's just for my opinion, even though I'd never do that. It's not just people who like the finale getting hate, people online in general aren't good at accepting differences in opinion so people on both "Sides" get it.

People are allowed to dislike the ending, so how about not trying to shame people by telling them how "Disappointed" their favorite characters would be in them for sharing their honest opinions on the finale? I think most people here recognized that the Mane Six didn't "Break up" and were still friends, that doesn't mean people have to like them being split apart like that. Maybe more people would have been alright with it if the arc was written better. My issue with it is that Twilight feels like she has no real agency in Season 9's arc, everybody else tells her she should totally be the Princess and she just goes along with it. She never really feels to me like she actually wants to do it, it's just kind of pushed onto her, and she has to leave behind so much of her life to go do it. That and it was set up as them "Ruling together" but that's clearly not what happened, as it's clear the others all got to continue with their normal lives for the most part while Twilight had to take on the vast majority of responsibility. No matter how hard the finale tries to sugarcoat it, it feels like a bad ending for Twilight, and I can't help but think she's have been happier staying in Ponyville. The intended moral of the finale was good, but the execution in my honest opinion was terrible enough it ruins it.

Oh, I liked practically nothing about it and years later my opinion of it has only gone further down. I don't like Twilight moving away either, I would have accepted it if the whole arc of her taking over for the Princesses was written better but as it is it feels awful. Especially because Twilight feels like she has little to no agency in the arc, I never got the feeling she really wanted to rule Equestria all that bad through the season, the whole thing was just kind of pushed on her. Like the Princesses and everypony else just decided she should and she just went along with it. I can't shake the feeling that she would have been happier just staying in Ponyville where she had her whole life with her friends, her school she only recently opened, etc. Doesn't help that the season originally set up that they were all going to rule together, which I was wondering how they were going to do since they had their own responsibilities but then the series just decided that they wouldn't! Yeah, the others show up to that meeting once a month and I'm sure do some other stuff, but it looks like they just got to continue on with their normal lives while 90% of the responsibility falls on Twilight and Spike. That's not "Ruling together" at all. I also just don't like the time skip, I usually don't like time skips. No, the last thing I want to see is not everyone being older, it's just jarring to me and the awkwardly crammed in shipping and shipping fuel that has no place here doesn't help. Then there's the whole Grogar twist in Ending of the End which pretty much ruins everything else, tosses Discord's character under the bus and nearly ruins him, wastes any potential Grogar had and leads to some insanely screwed up morality when the trio are harshly punished by Discord of all people, when he spent the entire season before this manipulating and using them, and apparently nobody cares about that for some reason. I get they're evil but you don't let the guy who set the whole thing up in the first place punish the people he was using like tools, it's just wrong. Especially so when a lot of this season went out of it's way to make the trio more likable and even somewhat sympathetic. I hate that. The whole ending just feels wrong. Everything about it feels wrong. Nothing feels like it fits or suits the tone of the show. It all feels bitter, or mean-spirited or just empty. Really don't like it.

507700 Hmm, this place seems oddly familiar.

Favorite is hard to pick. I'm torn between Twilight's Kingdom, Cutie Re-Mark and To Where and Back Again. I went ahead and picked Cutie Re-Mark though, I really enjoyed getting to see all the different bad timelines and I'm on the side who's really fond of Starlight's reformation. They're all pretty great though. As for least favorite...I want to pick both Ending of the End and Last Problem so bad, you have no idea. But since I can only pick one...I'll go with Ending of the End, I personally strongly dislike Last Problem and everything about it, but I at least understand some parts of it. The Ending of the End just leaves me baffled, I don't understand how the writers looked at the Grogar twist and everything that came of it and thought it was a good idea for a finale. It tosses anything even remotely likable or sympathetic about Discord under the bus, to the point where the trio end up looking more sympathetic than he does by the end of it. Made even worse by him actually getting to choose the punishment of the people he's been manipulating all season long, while he get's away free after everything and everyone just let's him do it with no problem. Yeah, no, this is morally one of the worst episodes of the show and it's made all the worse by being the end, the final "Normal" episode before the epilogue.

The Ending of the End for successfully making Discord into one of the most unsympathetic and unlikeable characters in the series, and making everyone else look bad too. Discord makes the biggest and stupidest mistake he's ever made right at the end of the show, causes all the major problems of the entire season, get's completely forgiven after doing the bare minimum to make up for it all, and isn't even called out for some of the worst parts of his actions. He get's called out for being an idiot and putting Equestria in danger, but literally nobody cares about what he did to the villains. He set them free just to manipulate and use them for his own plans, actively encouraged them to keep being evil and even kind of physically abused them, all just to use them for a stupid plan to boost Twilight's confidence? I don't care if they're villains and I don't care if they betrayed him and did evil of their own free will in the end, what he did to them was awful and the fact nobody even says a word about it makes me angry. They care about what he did so little that they're even willing to let him suggest and help with the trio's punishment, which whether the trio deserve it or not just feels incredibly unjust. It makes everyone else just look horribly hypocritical and unheroic to let him do this. Not to mention what he did to Sombra, which depending on how you look at it might actually be the most evil thing he's ever done in the entire series. Because at best he resurrected a guy and stupidly allowed him to get killed again, at worst he resurrected a guy specifically to get him killed again. Regardless of how evil Sombra himself is, if it's the second...that'd honestly be the most cruel and monstrous thing Discord has ever done in my eyes, regardless of innocent or not his victim is. Also, The Last Problem. It's...fine, I guess. But I'm not a fan of how the whole Princesses retiring arc was handled so that kind of sours the whole aspect of Twilight having to move to Canterlot for me, the lesson is great but the build-up to it just doesn't work. Plus I just don't like time skips. This one is more personal than anything, I suppose. I just hate time skip finales in general and this episode did nothing to change my mind. Yeah, I'm really not a fan of this shows ending at all, unfortunately.