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A critical and delicate matter


Creamy Arty

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I can already make guesses at some of the users who will be banned within the next month due to this.

 

The staff and I aren't going to be banning anyone for this if we can at all help it. We even avoid use of warnings when we can. We only use the warning system for serious or repeat offenses, we always try PMs first when we can.

 

That same practice will be employed here, although far more leeway will be given than we already give for other minor rule-breaking due to the sensitive nature of this issue.

 

For all intents and purposes, all we'll be doing is directing people to Life Advice if they post constant depressing status updates or blog posts. We'd try multiple PM reminders for that sort of thing and only turn to the warning system if that became absolutely necessary.

 

In short, we do not want to have to warn or ban anyone for this at all. We will give more leeway for this rule than we do for others, but as with any rule if people just completely ignore us there comes a day when we have no other choice.

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We can lend help and support as friends, but not on a professional level. Everyone is qualified to be a friend, but there is a critical difference between being able to offer someone friendship and support and being able to help someone on a professional psychological level.

Which bring me back to my previous point... How do i know how to handle this as a friend? What do i do or dont do when someone looks for help ob these subjects? What do i do or dont say?
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Which bring me back to my previous point... How do i know how to handle this as a friend? What do i do or dont do when someone looks for help ob these subjects? What do i do or dont say?

 

That's up to you to decide, not the staff. That's not the staff's responsibility.

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That's up to you to decide, not the staff. That's not the staff's responsibility.

Never said it was. In any case any support for issues like that has to be backed down with some knowledge about the subject.
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1 - Threads, blogs, and status updates in which somebody threatens suicide will be deleted, followed by a PM to them suggesting professional counseling for it.

Wait, I'm a little confused.  To me, this sounds as if ALL threads pertaining to suicide will be deleted, but in reading through some of the responses here, it sounds like the intention is just to keep this kind of stuff in Life Advice, so we can keep the rest of the forums more upbeat.  If this is the case, I'm all for it.  But I do think that if someone really wants to discuss suicide and needs help, they should be able to do so in Life Advice.  But I certainly agree with keeping that stuff contained in Life Advice.

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Wait, I'm a little confused.  To me, this sounds as if ALL threads pertaining to suicide will be deleted, but in reading through some of the responses here, it sounds like the intention is just to keep this kind of stuff in Life Advice, so we can keep the rest of the forums more upbeat.  If this is the case, I'm all for it.  But I do think that if someone really wants to discuss suicide and needs help, they should be able to do so in Life Advice.  But I certainly agree with keeping that stuff contained in Life Advice.

 

Only suicide threats are disallowed. It's fine to discuss suicide in general or to ask for help with overcoming suicidal thoughts in Life Advice or in private conversations with friends. 

 

There is a critical difference between threatening to end your life and stating that you are experiencing suicidal thoughts. The former is not allowed anywhere on this site.

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It's good to see this issue being tackled, other forums have the same thing going on and they don't seem to do a damn thing about it. It's mostly just for attention though, squeekers on Facebook do it too.

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It's good to see this issue being tackled, other forums have the same thing going on and they don't seem to do a damn thing about it. It's mostly just for attention though, squeekers on Facebook do it too.

There are some people that unfortunetely do that for attention or to troll but the problem is we don't really have any way of knowing for sure if someone is doing it for those reason or because they really are crying out for help. I don't think we can afford to take that chance simply because you never know, some users have suggested contacting the authorities on the more extreme matters like actual suicide threats as opposed to mentioning merely having thoughts of suicide and I fully support that suggestion. If someone is trolling or attention whoring than I am sure the cops won't like that and perhaps they will think twice before threatening suicide when they don't actually mean it and for those who actually do mean it they can hopefully get the help they need. To clarify though this should only be done with people that say things like "I am going to kill myself" as opposed to people that say things like "I don't know if I can go on living anymore" or "I am having thoughts of suicide" simply because there is a huge difference between thoughts and actual actions.

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To clarify though this should only be done with people that say things like "I am going to kill myself" as opposed to people that say things like "I don't know if I can go on living anymore" or "I am having thoughts of suicide" simply because there is a huge difference between thoughts and actual actions.

 

And this is basically what we are enforcing. There is a tremendous difference between "I'm having suicidal thoughts..." and "Tonight, I'm going to kill myself. Good-bye." The latter is especially problematic when a good number of the threats turn out to be false positives.

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I honestly have mixed feelings about this... Depression and suicide aren't easy to deal with and you're certainly not going to get someone to see things differently with one well-written essay with sound logic and whatever. Logic just doesn't have much to do with it. Cognitive dissonance is what you can expect when you try to address a person's emotional/existential problems logically. Some of your logical reasoning is going to conflict with one or more of a person's closely held beliefs which is sure to exacerbate the upset. What's more, you can count on the person not knowing why they are truly suffering nor can you expect them to know what they want and even if they do, getting there still isn't easy. I have my own troubles I'm trying to move past and I know how hard it is to really figure things out. Having a caregiver kind of figure who'll take care of you can keep the depression or upset at bay but that's really it from what I can tell. It's a commitment and few people I know are willing to do that.

 

I'm as of yet undecided so I'll have to think on this further. In the meantime though, those are my two cents so far.

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There is a tremendous difference between "I'm having suicidal thoughts..." and "Tonight, I'm going to kill myself. Good-bye." The latter is especially problematic when a good number of the threats turn out to be false positives.

 

Ok, if someone says "Tonight, i'm going to kill myself. Good-bye"., what do you do about it ?

On our forum, authorities are alerted, the post or the topic is deleted and the member is banned permanently.

 

What about here ?

I'm assuming you contact the authorities, is the member banned, though ?

What about if it is not a false positive ? Difficult decisions to make.... 

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Ok, if someone says "Tonight, i'm going to kill myself. Good-bye"., what do you do about it ?

On our forum, authorities are alerted, the post or the topic is deleted and the member is banned permanently.

 

What about here ?

I'm assuming you contact the authorities, is the member banned, though ?

What about if it is not a false positive ? Difficult decisions to make.... 

 

The member isn't banned immediately; rather, we would delete the status update, contact them via PM, and do our best to address the matter in private, if possible.

 

If someone continually made suicide threats, however, they would very likely be banned. By that point they are probably either lying for sensationalism or require serious medical attention.

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I wish the staff the best of luck. You guys are honestly in a catch-22 situation. No matter what you write as a warning to people, some will take offence or take it the wrong way. That's the nature of people and also depression on top of that makes it even worse. I know myself that when I was at the height (or bottom depends how you want to look at it!) of my depression took things the wrong way. I took them negatively when my friends honestly didn't say anything wrong. You kind of go for the worst case scenario. Also everyone's depression and how they handle it are different. 

 

I think you guys have made the right decision. The members on this forum, as well meaning as they are, are not counselors. There was only so much my friends could do for me and that was more in a listen to me rant when I was upset or listen to me cry and just be there and try and distract me (which was a tactic that worked well for me). There is only so much anyone can do and while suicide does need to be taken seriously, this is an online forum. There is only so much that can be done. 

 

Best of luck. 

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I have to admit that when I read this my gut reaction was to disagree. Not everyone has access to mental healthcare. Not everyone feels that they need professional help who would obviously benefit from it. Not everyone has a stable personal life. Then I thought about it ... and came to the decision that the staff is making the best possible decision available to them and within their power.

 

Someone without professional training may do some good, such as a friend, but the potential for the reverse is more likely. This isn't a site of mental health professionals (nor is it findlaw.com for those who tried to discuss liability earlier on). It is a site based around an entertainment property and build by an for the fans of that property. This is an escape and way to relax for a few here. I get that completely.

 

The majority of the people here appear to have honest empathy toward each other, more so than other boards I have seen. It makes sense that someone who is struggling would feel that this is a path to talk to someone. That is what makes this such a difficult issue. If a newbie like me feels this conflicted at first, I can't imagine what the discussion was like with the mlpf team.

 

Tough call, but I understand why it had to be made.

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The forum has started the self destruction after removing the suicide section. People come here from all over the internet, whether they like ponies are not just to be accepted and loved. This place has saved lights, but they took it away. You will see a mass decrease in members and possibly an increase in suicide. The original reason I came here was for depression help, in fact that's how I became a brony. No I am not hating against the system or the change. I'm aware you send them messages to get help, but to be honest MLP Staff, only friends can help you. Every therapist or counselor I've been to has failed, but the people here have helped me. I'm kind of disappointed. Why remove the posts that make this place what it is?

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The forum has started the self destruction after removing the suicide section. People come here from all over the internet, whether they like ponies are not just to be accepted and loved. This place has saved lights, but they took it away. You will see a mass decrease in members and possibly an increase in suicide. The original reason I came here was for depression help, in fact that's how I became a brony. No I am not hating against the system or the change. I'm aware you send them messages to get help, but to be honest MLP Staff, only friends can help you. Every therapist or counselor I've been to has failed, but the people here have helped me. I'm kind of disappointed. Why remove the posts that make this place what it is?

 

People can still ask for help with suicidal thoughts from their friends privately or in the Life Advice section. The only things that are being disallowed now are constant depressing status updates or suicide threats.

 

There is a critical difference between stating that you are having suicidal thoughts and getting help with overcoming them from friends, and saying that you are about to end your life.

 

You can still get the kind of support you came here for. We're just asking people to keep it in private discussions with friends or in the Life Advice section we have for this very purpose, because if people post status updates about stuff like this all the time that infringes upon the rights of others to be able to have a fun and relaxing time here if they do not wish to assist people who are going through difficulty in life.

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I support this. First of all - status updates are not best place for asking for help, help should be received from friends or professionals, not random users who might intentionally give bad advice in order to "troll" someone.

 

Second - wether others accept it or not - Life Advice. That section exists and it's open and free. It was made for a reason and everyone who goes there can expect help. 

 

 

It may look cold, but it had to be done, people who need help will be getting it anyway, but negative atmosphere is having influence on everyone. We allow this forum to be sad as whole and even the ones who seek help won't find joy in being members of it. Let's keep all grief and sadness in life advice and outside it keep this place positive - for the sad ones too. Positive enviroment is a major factor when it comes to fighting off depression and now it is slowly disappearing causing even some of positive users to feel sad. I fail to see how is bringing forum to such state helpful. It is not a perfect solution - but there is NO perfect solution, utopia is a fiction and it will never exist. But this step was best that could be done in this moment and I am sure that if someone will come up with better idea then we will have an update on this matter. That's all. 

 

And before I get judged - I too try to help others, I may not always be there, but a person can't be everywhere at once and I'd rather focus on one depressed "guy" rather than try to divide my attention between more of them and find myself unable to help any of them because I just can't focus. There are people who help on this forum - but we can't be everywhere. This is another reason btw why making threads in Life Advice is better. There is better chance of Your problem being noticed there rather than burried under many status updates like "I like pancakes!". Many of depressing status updates are not even read by anyone, because there is just too much stuff going on when they are written. What's point of writing something that probably won't be noticed and will leave the problem unsolved in the process? 

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I support this. First of all - status updates are not best place for asking for help, help should be received from friends or professionals, not random users who might intentionally give bad advice in order to "troll" someone.

 

Second - wether others accept it or not - Life Advice. That section exists and it's open and free. It was made for a reason and everyone who goes there can expect help. 

 

 

It may look cold, but it had to be done, people who need help will be getting it anyway, but negative atmosphere is having influence on everyone. We allow this forum to be sad as whole and even the ones who seek help won't find joy in being members of it. Let's keep all grief and sadness in life advice and outside it keep this place positive - for the sad ones too. Positive enviroment is a major factor when it comes to fighting off depression and now it is slowly disappearing causing even some of positive users to feel sad. I fail to see how is bringing forum to such state helpful. It is not a perfect solution - but there is NO perfect solution, utopia is a fiction and it will never exist. But this step was best that could be done in this moment and I am sure that if someone will come up with better idea then we will have an update on this matter. That's all. 

 

And before I get judged - I too try to help others, I may not always be there, but a person can't be everywhere at once and I'd rather focus on one depressed "guy" rather than try to divide my attention between more of them and find myself unable to help any of them because I just can't focus. There are people who help on this forum - but we can't be everywhere. This is another reason btw why making threads in Life Advice is better. There is better chance of Your problem being noticed there rather than burried under many status updates like "I like pancakes!". Many of depressing status updates are not even read by anyone, because there is just too much stuff going on when they are written. What's point of writing something that probably won't be noticed and will leave the problem unsolved in the process? 

All my yes, Sir Hugs!

I couldn't have worded it better than yourself. I rather not focus on 20 depressing statuses at once, either. I believe this change will do us very good. Very, very good. It would encourage a more positive atmosphere. 

 

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Just to let everyone know, I added an addendum to the Global Rules several days ago regarding suicide threats:

Please don't post suicide threats. Venting about life from time to time in a status update or blog post is fine, but please keep substantial negative material regarding emotional difficulty and other life concerns in the Life Advice forum section. While you are welcome to ask for advice for overcoming suicidal thoughts there, suicide threats are not allowed anywhere on this site. Please see this post for more details.

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@,

 

Hmm. This is an intriguing post, and one that I take a middle ground on. Of course something had to be done concerning the large amount of suicide-themed threads that have been popping up, but I wonder if this could have been solved differently. But if it could have, I'm not seeing it- I just wish that there was a middle ground between letting it go on and virtually banning the topic from Life Advice.

 

Oh, well. Seeing a professional is the best option, because, honestly, how can you truly trust anyone you haven't met in real life on the internet, despite their and your best intentions?

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I know this rule has been debated and argued in every direction, and I really hate to be the one to rehash this argument, but given a recent sad occurrence on this forum, I feel in good conscience that I have to discuss this rule in more depth.

 

In case you're not sure what I'm referring to, a thread was recently posted letting us know that one of our former members recently took their own life.

 

What really bothers me about this, and why I feel the need to bring this up again, is how this person would have been treated under these new rules prior to him leaving the forum.

 

From the first time this rule was discussed, it has constantly portrayed people who post numerous messages about depression and threats of suicide as people doing nothing but trying to get attention.  Even the original post says:

 

 

 

Should it be noticed somebody has a habit of doing this all the time by posting a slew of depressive (and over time, obnoxious) status updates and blogs about how terrible his life is or whatnot, the moderators will start locking or deleting them as necessary and directing the OP to the Life Advice board.
 

 

However, looking at that member's status updates which were made prior to his death, this person too made a number of posts which were indistinguishable from those of people who are 'just trying to get attention'.  The fact that this member's updates in which he was trying to find someone to reach out to him for help would have been viewed under this new rule as an obnoxious attempt at getting attention is extremely bothersome to me.

 

I've said this before, and I feel the need to reiterate this.  The problem with a rule of this type is that suicides threats are not something you can apply a blanket rule to.  For a number of people, they are threatening to commit suicide because they feel that nobody cares for them.  Deleting those posts is insuring that they won't find anybody on this forum to reach out to them and help.  Other people might feel that they are useless and can't do anything right.  Deleting those people's posts or even telling them to post a thread in life advice is telling them that once again, they failed.  This time they failed at following the rules.  It can worsen a situation or even be the thing that pushes them over the edge.

 

Like any decision, it comes down to weighing the costs against the benefits.  Only two things have really been said in regards to justification for this rule.  The first is that the posts disrupt the atmosphere, that they're annoying and frustrating, and that they simply don't belong here.  But I think nothing could be further from the truth.  This is a fandom based on the principle that friendship is magic.  It's based on the idea that if we stick together and help one another we can overcome anything.  I don't understand how taking those core principles from the show, we can choose to not help people on this forum at that critical moment when they're contemplating suicide.  

 

The second reason I've heard is that we're not qualified on this forum to dispense advice and serve as a suicide hotline.  And this is absolutely true.  We're not equipped to do that.  But that's not what anybody is suggesting.  Nobody is saying we should try and dispense psychological advice on the forum, but that's only a small part of overcoming thoughts of suicide.  A big part of it is finding support in your friends.  Look at how the national suicide hotline suggests you deal with a suicidal friend: http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/gethelp/someone.aspx

 

Number 2 on their list is being willing to listen.  This is what we're not doing.  Giving them the phone number is one part of the puzzle, but without us encouraging them to call and encouraging them to find a reason to live, they're never going to pick up that phone.  We can't serve as a substitute for a psychologist or a hotline, but we are one of the most important parts of that hotline working.

 

The bottom line is that if the person isn't making a legitimate threat, then time was wasted, and perhaps the atmosphere was disturbed.  But if just one person was being sincere in their threat, and we close off the lines of communication for that person, it could end up costing that person their life.

 

I don't want this forum to have to deal with the consequences when we find out someone we deleted the post of took their life.  I really hope that the staff will reconsider their opinion on this thread.

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(edited)
The problem with a rule of this type is that suicides threats are not something you can apply a blanket rule to. For a number of people, they are threatening to commit suicide because they feel that nobody cares for them. Deleting those posts is insuring that they won't find anybody on this forum to reach out to them and help.

 

This is why we do our best to handle these situations with utmost care. We don't want people to give up on finding help from friends on the forum, we only wish that they do so in appropriate places. A status isn't a good place for a discussion with friends, which is why we direct them to Life Advice and offer them with advice to talk to professionals. In the LA forum they can get assistance from people who really want to assist and in the long run this is better then making numerous status updates that only get a few responses whilst annoying some other users.

 

Depression is a serious issue but its something that can be handled in a more appropriate way. I know anyone who really wants people to help will not have an issue with posting in Life Advice, and users who really want to help this person will actively seek to do so. Lack of status updates will not cause a lack of assistance in my opinion.

Edited by Dawn Rider
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