A critical and delicate matter

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

They arnt in ANYWAY liable because that's not thier job. Thier job IS to run a forum for fans of MLP, not suicide hotline.

It doesn't matter if it is in the fine print of their job description or not. You can be put in a civil court case for causing someone to kill themselves over facebook. While suicide threats should not be encourage or openly tolerated, a crass interaction that leads to a suicide can land you in court.

How come 4chan hasn't been sued, then? o_0

Because there are no account names attached to the posters on 4chan. /b/ has been fully investigated by the FBI several times before for this matter.

[TheDarkMysteryMan 670]

It doesn't matter if it is in the fine print of their job description or not. You can be put in a civil court case for causing someone to kill themselves over facebook. While suicide threats should not be encourage or openly tolerated, a crass interaction that leads to a suicide can land you in court.

But it isn't thier fault. On the courts eye, it's the sites fault, but when you take a closer look and see that the site dosen't like to keep threads, claiming you're about to kill yourself around, then the picture comes clear.

Yet I digress to see an actual case of this go to the defendant than the plaintiff.

Edited June 24, 2014 by TheDarkMysteryMan

[Yellow Diamond 7,561]

While suicide threats should not be openly tolerated, simply sweeping the solution under the rug may result in a death, and possible court case.

 

The other side of the coin is that someone might drive a person to suicide through verbal abuse or harassment via the forums; then a parent/relative might say, "Why didn't the moderators do anything to stop it?" It's a catch-22, no matter how you slice it, but at the very least this policy makes clear we don't have the tools to adequately address matters so deeply personal and volatile.

 

To say this might be sweeping the problem under the rug could imply we have other viable options at our disposal; however, in all honesty, we really don't. The membership here cannot be tasked with potentially balancing someone's life in their hands, unlikely as it is. Without intending to smear the victim (i.e., the person who declares they will commit suicide), it's unfair to expect most MLP Forums members to be able to handle the situation. It's ultimately begging for disaster.

[Venomous 18,813]

I do agree with this to an extent.

 

If someone is feeling suicidal, they should be able to post what they're feeling and look for advice from others. Yes, they should go see a physician, but looking for some advice in the appropriately titled "Life Advice" section, shouldn't bring up the instinct to delete.

 

If you feel that the person is in immediate danger, then feel free to message the user explaining why you must delete their post and tell them to get help. However, if they're not in my immediate danger and strictly looking for advice in suicidal feelings, let them be.

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

But it isn't thier fault. On the courts eye, it's the sites fault, but when you take a closer look and see that the site dosen't like to keep threads, claiming you're about to kill yourself around, then the picture comes clear.

Yet I digress to see an actual case of this go to the defendant then the plaintiff.

It would be fairly easy to get a civil court case going for an event that goes wrong like this. A staff member in a position of power incorrectly handles a suicide threat, the user claims this mistake is what drove them over the edge. It doesn't matter if the site doesn't like to keep threats, a case can still be made should it be handled incorrectly. And since the staff is in the position of power, they are more likely to interact with a suicide threat, but this same case could happen to a normal member should this happen.

But this is off topic, if you want similar court cases that have happened, or evidence as to how this could happen it will have to continue in a pm.

[RrVPfX9cPtw59FpC 1,296]

The other side of the coin is that someone might drive a person to suicide through verbal abuse or harassment via the forums; then a parent/relative might say, "Why didn't the moderators do anything to stop it?" It's a catch-22, no matter how you slice it, but at the very least this policy makes clear we don't have the tools to adequately address matters so deeply personal and volatile.

 

To say this might be sweeping the problem under the rug could imply we have other viable options at our disposal; however, in all honesty, we really don't. The membership here cannot be tasked with potentially balancing someone's life in their hands, unlikely as it is. Without intending to smear the victim (i.e., the person who declares they will commit suicide), it's unfair to expect most MLP Forums members to be able to handle the situation. It's ultimately begging for disaster.

You underestimate the power a friend's words can have for the better.

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

The other side of the coin is that someone might drive a person to suicide through verbal abuse or harassment via the forums; then a parent/relative might say, "Why didn't the moderators do anything to stop it?" It's a catch-22, no matter how you slice it, but at the very least this policy makes clear we don't have the tools to adequately address matters so deeply personal and volatile.

 

To say this might be sweeping the problem under the rug could imply we have other viable options at our disposal; however, in all honesty, we really don't. The membership here cannot be tasked with potentially balancing someone's life in their hands, unlikely as it is. Without intending to smear the victim (i.e., the person who declares they will commit suicide), it's unfair to expect most MLP Forums members to be able to handle the situation. It's ultimately begging for disaster.

A very simple solution to this entire thing would just to set up a legal disclaimer than non of the staff are qualified in dealing with suicide threats, or other real world traumatic events. It would release a lot of the liability from the staff, and would help a lot more than some policy posted in a post in a thread. And disclaimers are not that difficult to obtain. While I understand it is unfair to expect members on the forum to be able to handle the situation, a legal disclaimer that is validated would do a lot to abstain the forums of liability.

[TheDarkMysteryMan 670]

A very simple solution to this entire thing would just to set up a legal disclaimer than non of the staff are qualified in dealing with suicide threats, or other real world traumatic events. It would release a lot of the liability from the staff, and would help a lot more than some policy posted in a post in a thread. And disclaimers are not that difficult to obtain. While I understand it is unfair to expect members on the forum to be able to handle the situation, a legal disclaimer that is validated would do a lot to abstain the forums of liability.

This. Please this.

Just keep it in the Life advise thread or somewhere in the General threads. Let them know that you arnt able to deal with these specific situations because you weren't titled to when you made this forum.

 

I'll say it once, but I'll say it again: this forums is for ponys, not a suicide hotline.

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

This. Please this.

Just keep it in the Life advise thread or somewhere in the General threads. Let them know that you arnt able to deal with these specific situations because you weren't titled to when you made this forum.

I'll say it once, but I'll say it again: this forums is for ponys, not a suicide hotline.

Get a legal disclaimer saying that none of the staff are qualified to deal with suicide threats, and add it into the terms of use every member agrees to when they register on the forum. Problem solved, liability dealt with.

[SCS 7,443]

A very simple solution to this entire thing would just to set up a legal disclaimer than non of the staff are qualified in dealing with suicide threats, or other real world traumatic events. It would release a lot of the liability from the staff, and would help a lot more than some policy posted in a post in a thread. And disclaimers are not that difficult to obtain. While I understand it is unfair to expect members on the forum to be able to handle the situation, a legal disclaimer that is validated would do a lot to abstain the forums of liability.

 

Thanks for this suggestion. I've brought it up for discussion with the other administrators. If it really would aid in absolving us of liability, I want to see it happen.

 

We care about people, and we will do our best to treat people in a kind, patient, empathetic, tactful and diplomatic manner, but ultimately we cannot be responsible for anyone's choices.

[TheDarkMysteryMan 670]

Get a legal disclaimer saying that none of the staff are qualified to deal with suicide threats, and add it into the terms of use every member agrees to when they register on the forum. Problem solved, liability dealt with.

This.

SCS, TINS303, take notes.

This needs to happen. Seeing that this suicide thread situation IS the forums current fiasco, I highly agree you implement something like this. If that was happening in my forum, I sure as hell would do it to.

Edited June 24, 2014 by TheDarkMysteryMan

[Yellow Diamond 7,561]

You underestimate the power a friend's words can have for the better.

 

I don't underestimate it. I don't think I ever said such a thing. I encourage people to reach out to their friends in times of need -- but an public status update is asking for more harm than good.

 

 

A very simple solution to this entire thing would just to set up a legal disclaimer than non of the staff are qualified in dealing with suicide threats, or other real world traumatic events. It would release a lot of the liability from the staff, and would help a lot more than some policy posted in a post in a thread. And disclaimers are not that difficult to obtain. While I understand it is unfair to expect members on the forum to be able to handle the situation, a legal disclaimer that is validated would do a lot to abstain the forums of liability.

 

We could slap as many disclaimers as we'd like onto the forums; but it doesn't prevent someone from filing a suit against us, despite how unlikely such a scenario may be. Nothing we say could entirely free us of liability.

 

For instance, we could allow members to post porn or links to malicious websites under the disclaimer we aren't responsible. We're nonetheless liable for that material, and that is in part why we are vigilant in removing harmful content from the forums.

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

I don't underestimate it. I don't think I ever said such a thing. I encourage people to reach out to their friends in times of need -- but an public status update is asking for more harm than good.

 

 

 

 

We could slap as many disclaimers as we'd like onto the forums; but it doesn't prevent someone from filing a suit against us, despite how unlikely such a scenario may be. Nothing we say could entirely free us of liability.

 

For instance, we could allow members to post porn or links to malicious websites under the disclaimer we aren't responsible. We're nonetheless liable for that material, and that is in part why we are vigilant in removing harmful content from the forums.

It would not stop someone from filing suit, but it would make it far, far, far more probable that you win said suit. And for how cheap it would be to cover, it really seems like a good idea. The disclaimer can be brought up in court, and then the case dismissed because said user that killed themselves agreed to the terms of use that contained the disclaimer in order to use the forum. Nothing will ever fully free you of moral liability, but legally you can take steps to protect your assets and your web site.

[Yellow Diamond 7,561]

It would not stop someone from filing suit, but it would make it far, far, far more probable that you win said suit. And for how cheap it would be to cover, it really seems like a good idea. The disclaimer can be brought up in court, and then the case dismissed because said user that killed themselves agreed to the terms of use that contained the disclaimer in order to use the forum. Nothing will ever fully free you of moral liability, but legally you can take steps to protect your assets and your web site.

 

I don't think we can predict the legal ramifications of such a suit, so I won't speculate very much on how things might hypothetically proceed. Suffice it to say that I echo SCS in acknowledging the possibility of adding such a disclaimer to our terms of service. I'm simply warning against it being treated as a cure-all. A disclaimer might in turn act as another form of sweeping the issue under the rug.

[TheDarkMysteryMan 670]

I don't think we can predict the legal ramifications of such a suit, so I won't speculate very much on how things might hypothetically proceed. Suffice it to say that I echo SCS in acknowledging the possibility of adding such a disclaimer to our terms of service. I'm simply warning against it being treated as a cure-all. A disclaimer might in turn act as another form of sweeping the issue under the rug.

How? How can this be in anyway, "sweeping the issue under the rug?" As far as I can see, its the best choice for now until something can be agreed with all around Edited June 24, 2014 by TheDarkMysteryMan

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

I don't think we can predict the legal ramifications of such a suit, so I won't speculate very much on how things might hypothetically proceed. Suffice it to say that I echo SCS in acknowledging the possibility of adding such a disclaimer to our terms of service. I'm simply warning against it being treated as a cure-all. A disclaimer might in turn act as another form of sweeping the issue under the rug.

In any court ever such a case would be very hard to win on the side against the forums as the forums has a disclaimer that they do not have to legally deal with the suicide threat outside the most basic of interactions. Nothing is a legal cure-all, but I have seen many a court case were they were dismissed because of disclaimers and liability waivers. While it may appear to be "sweeping the issue under the rug" it is legally protecting yourself in a court. As a reservist Peace Officer, and a Law student, something as simple as a disclaimer that your staff is not trained to deal with such an issue, and the user is acknowledging this fact when they agree to the terms of use can go far to protect you in any court case raised that deals with such an issue.

[Yellow Diamond 7,561]

How? How on any way is this, "sweeping the issue under the rug?" As far as I can see, its the best choice for now until something can be agreed with all around

 

"We have a disclaimer in place; if anything happens, it isn't our fault!"

 

That doesn't completely address the issues Artemis brought up in the decision. It's touches upon a dimension of the overall (potential) problem, yes, but it does not serve as the final answer.

[SCS 7,443]

"We have a disclaimer in place; if anything happens, it isn't our fault!"

 

That doesn't completely address the issues Artemis brought up in the decision. It's touches upon a dimension of the overall (potential) problem, yes, but it does not serve as the final answer.

 

I agree that a legal disclaimer would not be a cure-all solution, but if it could help at all then it would likely be a worthwhile endeavor.

[~StatesTheOblivious~ 1,794]

Okay, um... Maybe I'm the wrong person to post in this thread. I have posted a few rather gloomy things here already that might lead people to the conclusion that I need professional help myself - even if it weren't any threats or anything like that. And I have to say "Yes, I'm probably dealing with some serious mental issues myself," but given my (limited) knowledge on psychology and my own experiences - in dealing with therapists and patients - I can only say one thing about this matter here.

 

There is no right way to deal with this on this site, or on the internet in general.

 

All I can say is that, no matter what the site's policy is, every possible solution is somewhat suboptimal.

 

Others here have already brought up the problems. Rejection and pressure - or actions seen as such by the individual - triggering certain reactions from people with certain problems, possible lawsuits because of certain reactions, etc. I don't say that there cannot be a solution that's at least acceptable, or that discussion about how to act properly or about the possibility of finding better solutions should be stopped, but I dare say that this is a problem that cannot be actually solved. That's all I can say.

[Zygen 6,065]

Well, I am still a bit conflicted to an extent in that I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this.

 

However, I think i'm ok with it, I mean I personally don't really get bothered by status updates of others who are feeling down. Infact, I in a way get more hopeful and try to spread those feelings to the person in question.

 

On that note, this is more targeted towards suicide threats, which the fact these two things are very different should be noted. And those can either affect me in feeling highly inclined to help, or just get very stressed and unsure what to say really since I am not always the best with words. 

 

And of course like I said, there are status updates and such that are depressing that I don't really know what to say to, and while I don't know if I'd say it generally annoys me, but I certainly am unable to say much if anything.

 

As far as the whole professional help thing, I've been going to a counselor myself recently, and well, idk, i'm still kinda iffy on how much it helps me personally(Note i'm not really suicidal or anything) I suppose whether it helps depends on the specifics of the issue, but I suppose as long as the life advice forums and PM's are available to talk about this(Not to mention skype even) then this shouldn't be a problem to much I suppose.

 

I've personally complained and whined about my life a bunch, probably way more than I should, and I suppose this whole thing kind of makes me feel like an ass for whatever reason. Makes me regret all the times I have complained about my problems, when they are just what they are, my own problems. Of course I am a bit of a chronic complainer almost, so it can be kinda hard for me not to do that, I guess we shall see, hopefully I won't be getting into any trouble here due to this.

 

But I guess even as one who has complained plenty myself and stuff, I guess I can still see things from the perspective of others and the mods as far as trying to keep those who don't want to deal with the people who are feeling down and just want to be happy and discuss ponies and what color underwear everyone is wearing, or whatever, because it's true this wasn't made to be the therapist help site or something.

 

I suppose as long as the life advice forums is essentially exempt from these restrictions then it shouldn't be a real issue in the long run, that way those who want to help can go there to help, and those who want to vent or whatever and have something serious to deal with can go there for help.

 

Even on status updates and the such however, the restrictions shouldn't be to tight, or else people will feel as though they aren't really free enough to discuss what they want or whatever in their status updates and threads.

 

I guess despite all my self conflict in my own mind about this, I think i'm overall ok with the decision, in reality I don't think this will affect too much, but I guess we may see in the future.

 

On a side note, I don't know much about the legal system frankly, so I'm not really going to pretend I can put forth any suggestions or discussion regarding that.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Zygen

[SCS 7,443]

I've personally complained and whined about my life a bunch, probably way more than I should, and I suppose this whole thing kind of makes me feel like an ass for whatever reason. Makes me regret all the times I have complained about my problems, when they are just what they are, my own problems. Of course I am a bit of a chronic complainer almost, so it can be kinda hard for me not to do that, I guess we shall see, hopefully I won't be getting into any trouble here due to this.

  

You won't get in trouble for this, and neither will anyone else. We aren't looking to get anyone in trouble, and we certainly aren't going to dole out warnings for this. We'd only give someone a warning for this if that became absolutely necessary. We already try to avoid use of the warning system whenever possible. We only use warnings for serious offenses or if we tried PMs with someone and that didn't work. We will be avoiding use of the warning system even more so in regard to this issue due to how sensitive it is.

 

Also, you aren't an ass. Wanting to complain about issues one is going through is natural, we just ask that people keep more substantial/consistent content of this nature in Life Advice or in private conversations with friends.

[NavelColt 22,875]

Everyone's going to have various opinions on this, as these four pages in the past four hours have shown. Unfortunately, it's just one of those kinds of updates. It is, however, a necessary one. Whatever the approach, the increasing amount of negativity and the general downtrodden atmosphere that's been growing here constantly over the past several months has gotten a tad ridiculous, and has to be dealt with. I'm glad one more thing is being pushed off the list.

[Zygen 6,065]

  

You won't get in trouble for this, and neither will anyone else. We aren't looking to get anyone in trouble, and we certainly aren't going to dole out warnings for this. We'd only give someone a warning for this if that became absolutely necessary. We already try to avoid use of the warning system whenever possible. We only use warnings for serious offenses or if we tried PMs with someone and that didn't work. We will be avoiding use of the warning system even more so in regard to this issue due to how sensitive it is.

 

Also, you aren't an ass. Wanting to complain about issues one is going through is natural, we just ask that people keep more substantial/consistent content of this nature in Life Advice or in private conversations with friends.

Ah ok, I was a bit confused as to whether or not warnings would be used for this type of stuff, or it was just a simple removal of conflict.

 

It's nice to know that warning points will be more of a last resort thing, i assume just reserved for those who after being told to stop multiple times are reluctant to, or something of that matter.

Plus, I know especially when I'm feeling out of it, I can be much less reasonable than when I'm feeling well, so I'm sure that will have to be considered with warnings and the such regarding this type of stuff.

 

Not to mention it could add to frustration of a warning is placed, and other things.

 

Of course I am sure all of the moderators are aware of most of this, and I trust the judgement of all of them to deal with these situations in the best way possible, both for the individual in question, and for the community as a whole.

 

That is why they were picked to become moderators in the first place(Or atleast partly so) correct?

 

And I suppose you are probably right, I think more than anything I am just an ass to myself sometimes really.

 

Thank you for all the clarifications on this issue, it's nice to know the details, and with these details I feel a bit more comfortable with the change and more willing to support it.

 

Heck, maybe it'll encourage me to atleast try to be a bit more positive myself ;p.

[Arctic Night 884]

While I believe that I understand the concerns some may have, I have to agree with this decision. We had similar problems on another favorite forum of mine, and took similar actions which involved offering proffessional help to people considering suicide. It seems to have done well... I think.

 

However, I can say that unless we enforce a very strict definition of "threatening suicide," I fear that this plan will prove to be a failure very quickly.

[Lagom 204]

I agree with the topic, because it's better to get professional help and advice, then from people who haven't dealt with suicide. Even through a lot of people mean well and have good intentions, it can't always go in the right direction and help no matter how hard you try. So yeah, agree.