A critical and delicate matter

[Simon 4,554]

 

 

Depression is a serious issue but its something that can be handled in a more appropriate way. I know anyone who really wants people to help will not have an issue with posting in Life Advice, and users who really want to help this person will actively seek to do so. Lack of status updates will not cause a lack of assistance in my opinion.

 

That might be true, however....

 

 

 

While you are welcome to ask for advice for overcoming suicidal thoughts there, suicide threats are not allowed anywhere on this site.

 

 

Any person who has dealt with suicide threats before knows that a suicide threat is reaching out for help.  If a person really wanted to commit suicide and didn't want someone to talk them out of it, they wouldn't make a threat, they would just do it.  By saying that you won't allow suicide threats anywhere on the site, you're making it so we're essentially giving up on the people who most desperately need the help of other people on the forum.

 

Also, while it seems perfectly logical that people would have no problem posting to ask for advice in life advice, you're trying to apply logic to a very illogical thing.  I've already given the example of the person who is having suicidal thoughts because they feel they can't do anything right, and how telling them they posted it in the wrong area would worsen those feelings, but there's a lot of other situations where telling a person to make a life advice thread asking for advice just won't work.

 

First of all, you have everybody posting the message because of subconscious feelings.  As I said before, a lot of people while they think they want to commit suicide, really don't, so a suicide threat is a way of reaching out for help.  While that subconscious desire to have people help them might be enough to get them to post a suicide threat on a status update, it might not be enough to get them to actually ask for advice over in the life advice section.  There's a reason they posted a status update threatening to commit suicide and not asking for advice... it's because they can't get themselves to ask for advice.  You're expecting more out of them then they can deliver, and it's going to hurt them.

 

Status messages are also unique in that the only people who will generally see them are people on your friends list.  For some people who don't feel comfortable discussing their feelings on the general forum, a status update or blog might seem to be a way to discuss it with the people who they consider friends on here without the bluntness of sending private messages.

 

I really hope that at a bare minimum, the staff would reconsider the portion of the rule which states that suicide threats would be removed from anywhere including life advice.  However, I really think that this rule needs to be reconsidered in its entirety.  I know that from a logical standpoint, it seems that it would do no harm to ask them to post a thread in life advice, but you're simply not dealing with logical thoughts and emotions.

[King 5,625]

@@Simon,  what you have said is understandable, but if someone is seeking help from friends then chances are their friends are already aware of the depression

 

Any person who has dealt with suicide threats before knows that a suicide threat is reaching out for help. If a person really wanted to commit suicide and didn't want someone to talk them out of it, they wouldn't make a threat, they would just do it. By saying that you won't allow suicide threats anywhere on the site, you're making it so we're essentially giving up on the people who most desperately need the help of other people on the forum.

We're not giving up on anyone. I highly doubt someones friends would be completely oblivious to their mates depression so as to only assist when a suicide threat is made by them. Chances are their friends are aware and are doing their best to assist.

 If someone is able to post a suicide threat, they are just as able to post a thread in Life Advice expressing their depression. Especially now that we allow venting threads.
 

 

There's a reason they posted a status update threatening to commit suicide and not asking for advice... it's because they can't get themselves to ask for advice. You're expecting more out of them then they can deliver, and it's going to hurt them.

Frankly I don't feel this is correct. You feel someone is more willing to threaten to kill themselves then to ask for someone to talk to them?

We shouldn't be forced to bring down the entire site due to one persons depression, and its not as if we're forcing all unhappy thoughts off the site. If someone wants help, they will seek it, and if they have any friends on the site, chances are they are well aware of their mates depression and should be helping as it is.


This was always going to be a very touchy policy but it was decided upon after much deliberation, I can assure you. No spur of the moment decision took place in this and many of the arguments presented here were already presented in our discussions. Ultimately, it was decided that this was the best option.





 

Edited July 9, 2014 by Dawn Rider

[Simon 4,554]

Frankly I don't feel this is correct. You feel someone is more willing to threaten to kill themselves then to ask for someone to talk to them?

 

The thing you're not realizing is that threatening suicide is a way of gaining control when the person feels they have lost control of their life.  When you tell them how and where they can seek advice, it's taking that control away from them, and often the response will be to protect that control by shutting you out.  So yes, they could quite honestly decide to take their own life because they're not willing to allow someone else to tell them how and where they can seek help on the forums.

 

This is why if you go on most any suicide website, they'll tell you that when you have a suicidal friend you have to allow them to express themselves in the way they want to as long as it's not, whether that's yelling, talking, crying or whatever else, as long as it's not putting you or them in danger.  For example:

http://www.suicide.org/how-to-help-a-suicidal-person.html

 

The reason they give this advice is that the smallest thing, such as telling them not to yell, can be perceived by a suicidal person as our way of controlling them, and can be met with violence or suicide.

 

I can't say this enough, but you're trying to apply logic to an illogical situation.  To you, it might seem ridiculous that someone would choose to kill themselves instead of posting in life advice, but quite honestly it's not a stretch.  When a person gets to that point where they're threatening to commit suicide, you have to treat it seriously.

 

 

 

We shouldn't be forced to bring down the entire site due to one persons depression, and its not as if we're forcing all unhappy thoughts off the site. If someone wants help, they will seek it, and if they have any friends on the site, chances are they are well aware of their mates depression and should be helping as it is.

 

This is what I have a really big problem with.  In a cost benefit analysis, compared to even a very minor chance that you can save someone's life by eliminating this policy, the idea of 'bringing down' the forum seems infinitesimal.  And really, what benefit does the rule gain in this regard?  People can make posts asking for advice about suicidal thoughts, but not a post in life advice threatening to commit suicide.  How does one bring down the entire site and one doesn't?  You also allow people to post messages about depression in life advice, but not in a status message or blog that is usually only seen by people who chose to add that person to their friends list.  Again, how does that make a big difference in this regard?  I just don't see how under the new policy, the forum is going to have any less exposure to these types of depressing messages.  People will still get the status updates, they'll just get removed before the person can get help.  People will still see the depression, but just not from the people who can't or won't express themselves in a way that follows this rule.  I just don't understand the benefit, and even if it exists, I don't understand how it outweighs a risk of suicide?

 

 

 

This was always going to be a very touchy policy but it was decided upon after much deliberation, I can assure you. No spur of the moment decision took place in this and many of the arguments presented here were already presented in our discussions. Ultimately, it was decided that this was the best option.

 

I don't doubt that you gave it great thought.  However, and I mean no disrespect by this, that doesn't mean you made the right decision.  There's a reason this rule has been met with so much resistance... it's because a lot of the people on this site want to help these people, and this rule makes that difficult.  I know that this decision was made with the best of intentions, but if you really understand the psychology behind suicide, you'd realize the truly disastrous consequences this rule can have.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Simon

[King 5,625]

However, and I mean no disrespect by this, that doesn't mean you made the right decision. There's a reason this rule has been met with so much resistance... it's because a lot of the people on this site want to help these people, and this rule makes that difficult.

The right decision isn't always the nice decision, and honestly it seems to be a split in how people feel. Just as many people think this is an appropriate policy as those who dislike it. We were never going to have 100% agreement for either case.

 

For now, this is the policy that is in place, but it doesn't mean it won't be looked at again. I feel like it could possibly be looked at again in the future since a number of users seem to disagree. For now, if someone wants help then they will need to apply some logic, even if its not always a logical situation.

 

Hopefully at some point we can find a nice medium.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Dawn Rider

[Shanks 10,811]

First of all, you have everybody posting the message because of subconscious feelings.  As I said before, a lot of people while they think they want to commit suicide, really don't, so a suicide threat is a way of reaching out for help.

I have indeed said it many times and will say so again, most people who are suicidal do not actually want to die but are so deserpate that they will often start to see that as the only way to end the pain. I like many people who have dealt have tried to be strong for a long time but just got worn down, that is really the horrible thing about this is people have understandable concerns about people using these threats to troll but there really no way to tell for sure if it is that or someone who is actually calling out for help. That is why I suggested in an earlier post that the authorities be contacted for suicide threats on here as extreme as it may sound, it could save someones life or if it is in fact a troll teach them a lesson they will never forget.

 

 

@@Simon,  what you have said is understandable, but if someone is seeking help from friends then chances are their friends are already aware of the depression

Unfortunetely that is not always the case, there are many suicidal people that are able to put on a facade that they are perfectly happy and well adjusted people when inside of them something is horribly wrong. I know because I myself have exhibited this same facade many times when those dark thoughts have entered my head, in many cases the victim has to to a certain extent in order to function in mainstream society. I couldn't go to work for example and mention suicidal thoughts to customers, nope I have to bullshit them by pretending that I am as happy as Pinkie Pie at a party which is one of the many reasons why I hate my job with a burning passion but I suppose that is a topic for another day. There are often signs but even close friends and family members will often not see them until it is too late.

 

When I last started having these thoughts I reached out to someone and he scribble down a note that I kept that described a little bit about what happen and a plan to get me some help. I at that point haven't told my Mom who I live with for financial reasons yet and was going to tell her but she found out by finding the note. She knew I was depressed, could tell something was off but had no idea that I had thoughts of suicide. She of course was concerned but one major mistake she made and still makes is by trying to tell me that I have nothing to be suicidal about, she is trying to proscibe logic to a situation that completely defies logic. I know she was trying to help with this and still is when she makes that point but all it accomplishes is it makes me angry and more depressed. One of these days I do have to talk to her about this because this lead to a horrible misunderstanding months back that almost lead to me lashing out with violence. Suicide is far more complicated situation than most people give credit for, certain arguments that sound logical will not make any sense to someones whose mind is in that sort of state.

[Professor Annabella 330]

@Simon

 

I know I'm just a stupid little muffin, but, I do have something to say that I think has some logic.

 

Yes, sometimes getting advice from your own people (Bronies on a MLP website that you feel close to) can feel like a relief, and feel like it can help, but what I feel is that if you make a thread in Life Advice thread and it doesn't work multible times, then you should go somewhere else. You have to realize, most of the time, we don't know each other. Most of the time we are just strangers with common interests.

 

In multiple countries, with millions, and millions of dollars spent, your government has provided people with such thoughts PROFESSIONAL help. They want to hear you, they want you to be open, and they have every intention of help you with professional advice. We are just a pony forum, we only have our own life experiences, which it can be powerful, but not powerful enough to save every life. You have to realize we will never be able to provide the strong bonds ones in real life do, internet bonds aren't like that, scientifically. What we type is no match to actually seeing a person, their expressions, and their surroundings. Those things are what we, as social beings, are made to register. A doctor can examine these things to come up with a solution, with his/her YEARS of experience and study. If they don't feel a doctor helps, what about some family, or close friends... If you don't have at least one of those, there are always meetings the town, or local towns, provide so that you can find people with the same feelings. I really feel there is so much a person can do before they put all their hope here. I feel for them, I've seen suicide, but they are going to find so much more help in the real world then on a virtual forum. I'm sorry, if Life Advice doesn't work the first time, other courses should be taken

Edited July 9, 2014 by Delta

[Simon 4,554]

@,

I would agree if we were talking about people who are consciously asking for help, but we're mainly dealing with the subconscious here so it's completely different.

 

When you're talking about something like someone posting a thread asking for help with dealing with depression, than your post makes perfect sense, and we should recommend that they get help if the advice they're getting isn't helping them get past that depression.  But that really doesn't apply to the situation at hand for a couple reasons.

First of all, the rule makes it so any posts threatening suicide regardless of whether they're in life advice or not are deleted.  That means that we're not given a chance to try and help that person, because the thread is going to be deleted if they threaten to commit suicide.

 

Second of all, while I absolutely agree that talking to people on here is in no way a substitute for getting professional help, that doesn't mean we're not important.  Any suicide hotline will tell you that when someone you know is threatening to commit suicide, while you should try to get them to call a hotline, they'll also tell you that you need to listen to them and talk to them and offer words of support.  Without the person having a feeling that people care about them, most won't ever get professional advice.  It's easy to pretend that getting someone to call suicide hotline is as simple as giving them the phone number, but that's just not the case.  They already know the hotline is out there, if they wanted to call they would do it themselves.  The reason they're posting a threat on a forum like this is that they're subconsciously trying to find people who care enough about them to offer support, and that's why it's so important that we're willing to listen and talk to them instead of just deleting the thread and giving them a phone number.

 

 

 

For now, this is the policy that is in place, but it doesn't mean it won't be looked at again. I feel like it could possibly be looked at again in the future since a number of users seem to disagree. For now, if someone wants help then they will need to apply some logic, even if its not always a logical situation.

 

Hopefully at some point we can find a nice medium.

 

I understand even if I can't say that I agree.  I am really glad to hear that it's something the staff is open to at least considering changing again in the future though.

 

As for a medium in the interim... I'd say don't delete suicide threats from life advice.  As is, that section allows rant threads, depression threads, and suicide advice threads, and it's a protected forum where the posts don't show on the homepage.  I think as is, anybody who goes into that section of the forum is open to helping people with problems and isn't going to be turned off by a suicide threat.  As long as they're contained in that section, I don't see the harm in leaving the threads up so people can give advice.  Alternatively, you could edit the original post to remove the portion of the thread's text in which they are threatening to commit suicide, so people can still offer advice to that person.  I think this, while not solving all the problems, would at least make the situation a little better and make help from other people on the forum more accessible.

[Phosphorous 135]

Posting suicide threats on the internet is very dangerous. First of all, it may encourage those that are feeling suicidal to feel like it is okay, since others are also considering that path. Second of all, there are trolls on the internet that might tell you things to actually bring you closer to doing it.

[Simon 4,554]

Posting suicide threats on the internet is very dangerous. First of all, it may encourage those that are feeling suicidal to feel like it is okay, since others are also considering that path. Second of all, there are trolls on the internet that might tell you things to actually bring you closer to doing it.

 

That's a bit of an oversimplification of the issue.  Both of those things do take place on the internet, but in a specific environment.  The first is something that happens on suicide forums.  There are a ton of forums out there about suicide which are basically places where suicidal people talk to each other about it, and those websites have proven to be very dangerous because you don't  have anybody there to discourage them.  instead they end up focusing more on why they all want to commit suicide without anybody talking about why they want to live.  However, that only has been known to happen in that type of an environment.  A place like this where the comments are moderated and the community is generally kind hearted is going to encourage that person to stay alive, and you wont' see that same thing happen.  It is something that has gotten media attention, but while they like to just say 'the internet' on the news as if all of the internet is identical, it's really an issue that's been researched and found specifically in that one type of environment.

 

The second issue is also something which happens in a specific environment.  There's been a lot of criticism of websites not moderating suicide discussions to allow trolls to encourage people to commit suicide.  This site in no way would allow that type of behavior to occur.  It has an extremely active staff, and any comment in that regard would be deleted extremely quickly.

 

The big problem is that by not allowing them to post here, we already know they are predisposed to talking about it on the internet, and they very well might turn to an environment that's more dangerous.  

Edited July 10, 2014 by Simon

[Kel_Grym 1,917]

I think I understand both sides of the issue.

 

I've been biting my nails thinking about this.

 

Its tough. Real tough.

 

The purpose of this forum is for mlp related things, yes, and it is also true that most people on this forum are not equipped to give out advice for those who are threatening suicide.

 

It is well and good to recommend to those who threaten suicide to seek professional help, however, it can go either way in the rule to delete suicide posts.

 

For many people, seeking professional help is just not going to happen for them. This might be because they literally are not in an ideal position to do so, have an extreme prejudice against shrinks, or are just too attached to the forums and are under an incorrect assumption that only people within the fandom could fathom their problems.

 

Any number of possibilities really. The forums just may be the only reason why a person is hanging on.

 

On the other hand, the forums may ultimately be the reason a person if finally pushed to suicide, if the words of a truly malicious troll that person meets on the forums sinks through to them.

 

You can't save everyone. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

The moderator's answer, is the most pragmatic, and the best course of action in the interests of the forums themselves.

 

Simons argument seems to be more ideally correct. A person's life, should take precedence over the cons of having to deal with the constant depressing status updates and suicide threads.

 

When a person is out bleeding on the ground, he does not require a jester, or a priest, or anything like that. He requires a surgeon. We, on the forums, are not surgeons.

 

Yet if a man is bleeding on the ground, and a surgeon is not available, he'll take whatever help he can get.

 

Though that help may be woefully ill-equipped to assist him.

 

I'm not really sure. I'm torn on this. This doesn't have a black and white answer, and no matter which way we go, this rule has the potential to direct a person to the help they need, just as much as it has the power to deny a person the only help they could ever conceivably get, granting that conditions exist that prevent them from seeking professional help (and to be frank, granting that they don't have the sensibilities to go to another forum designed to help the suicidal).

 

The rule is implemented, but I have a feeling it may be repealed later.

 

I think, personally, we should find a better middle ground.

 

It would probably be asking to much to hire on a professional shrink to be a member of the forums...

Edited July 16, 2014 by Minister KelGrym

[Danfo98 198]

I couldn't talk to a professional if I didn't know them personally, I hate when people I don't or barely know see me cry. And trust me, when (if) I feel suicidal I'm gonna cry ALOT.

[Sugar Cuddles 402]

Oh dear. I was going to make a huge post, but decided I'd spare everyone. I generally agree with this, and before anyone answers this post saying I wasn't listening, I must admit I haven't read the comments to this one (For the sake of my sanity and remembering what the topic is about first and foremost.)

 

What this is helps with is making sure people don't just leave basically spammy sad comments every status D: I like to talk to a lot of people about their problems, but I just can't help but get a bit down when I see them posting such things... I caught myself writing WAY too much again btw, so that's why this reply seem a bit on the short side again o-o:

 

EDIT: @@Simon, I read a bit of your posts, and while it is sad that we have to blanket over things like this, the point still stands D: We need to tell them to get professional help and not do it here. 

 

The forum is in no way responsible for their depression. All members and staff can do to help them is to ask them to see professional help.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Sugar Cuddles

[Commander Tangent 861]

I somewhat disagree to this rule. As someone who has been said to " post obnoxious attempts for attention" Before when I was in a really bad spot in life, I was somewhat ignored. But since I was able to post it in public, I had many of my friends help me, and many unknown people come to my aid. I can effectively say it saved my life, because people here made me feel cared about, gave me something to care about, and directed me to help. And as you can see, it worked.

 

So I say we should allow statuses like this, but not hundreds of them. Some people may want attention, but for people like me, we call out for help, and I received it, even with a bit of hate mixed in. Hell it's because Of this I owe some members here a ton.

 

Anyways, just my outlook on it.

[Sugar Cuddles 402]

@@Commander Tangent, I was there for thaaaat ^o^ 

 

I will still suggest requesting a chat instead of posting "I hate my life and wish I was dead" though. Which s more or less the issue we are bringing up :S