GuillermoGage

Compare the Celestia, Luna fanbases with Frozen's Anna and Elsa!

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Something that I've noticed about the Disney movie Frozen... we all know it is massively successful around the world, and that it has a noticeably larger fanbase than most other recent Disney anmated features, specifically, the active Internet grownup fanbase.... enough where there is serious discussion of which female character is most appealing, Anna, or Elsa.

 

There are a few similarities to our special pony show and this Disney film (animation, female characters, musical, but in the grand scheme of things one is a TV show and one is a more recent feature film with an understandably much larger audience) but the one I am thinking of are that they both have two royal sisters.

 

The FiM fanbase tends to... and I don't speak for everypony here, "prefer" one pony princess over another, especially among the two sisters.

 

With Elsa and Anna from Frozen, a direct comparison of which one matches up with which pony is... not precise. Luna has the darker past... so maybe she is more like Elsa... She is more hammy tho, maybe like Anna? Princess Anna has a forgiving and optimistic spirit, there are shades of that in Princess Celestia.

 

Do people who tend to "prefer" one pony sister as their favorite also lean toward a favorite Arendelle sister?

 

I defnitely have Luna as my fave princess of any pony princess, but for Frozen.... I dunno, maybe Elsa has a more interesting character design and singng voice..  I generally don't find her characterization very interesting or even amusing tho, she is kind of a Disney emo.

 

Discuss your thoughts of these two pairs of royal sisters!

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They are one in the same, and they run this board. ;)

 

 

I like this sort of discussion, even if I'll disagree on there being substance to the comparison. Until I ran across a PMV and saw thereisnospoon303 and SCS change their avatars, I never connected the two as being similar. To be honest, outside of them being royal sisters who were close at one point and then separated, the story is a bit different. Anna's extraordinary naiveté causes most of the problems in the film, but winds up being the catalyst for both sisters eventually having the bond that they both yearned for.  That said, neither sister is wholly to blame for the mess. You had years of fear, and isolation that contributed to the eventual coronation scene.

 

In Celestia and Luna's case, Luna had fallen to her own insecurities and had to be banished with Celestia having to be the one to do it. Things were always good for them from what I can tell. It was simple jealously. Luna as Nightmare Moon wanted to remake Equestria as an homage to eternal night, while Elsa was motivated by saving those around her that she loved. She was misguided, but a very understandable approach.

 

I don't know. I do hope other's chime in on this since I enjoyed the heck out of Frozen (though I put it and the song on moratorium because it was getting worn out) and MLP is amazing as well. I so want to hear a reasoned argument that connects the two sister sets and their motivations and concerns.

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They are one in the same, and they run this board. ;)

 

 

I like this sort of discussion, even if I'll disagree on there being substance to the comparison. Until I ran across a PMV and saw thereisnospoon303 and SCS change their avatars, I never connected the two as being similar. To be honest, outside of them being royal sisters who were close at one point and then separated, the story is a bit different. Anna's extraordinary naiveté causes most of the problems in the film, but winds up being the catalyst for both sisters eventually having the bond that they both yearned for.  That said, neither sister is wholly to blame for the mess. You had years of fear, and isolation that contributed to the eventual coronation scene.

 

In Celestia and Luna's case, Luna had fallen to her own insecurities and had to be banished. Things were always good for them. It was simple jealously. Luna as Nightmare Moon wanted to remake Equestria as an homage to eternal night, while Elsa was motivated by saving those around her that she loved. She was misguided, but a very understandable approach.

 

I don't know. I do hope other's chime in on this since I enjoyed the heck out of Frozen (though I put it and the song on moratorium because it was getting worn out) and MLP is amazing as well. I so want to hear a reasoned argument that connects the two sister sets and their motivations and concerns.

This post just sums it up. I can't say anything XD

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I don't think there's a clean analogue between Elsa and Anna and Celestia and Luna, despite the fact both relationships suffered from emotional turmoil. One of the underlying threads of Frozen was that neither Elsa nor Anna were in much of a position to effectively lead their kingdom: Elsa lived in constant fear of her own powers, and Anna was naive as a byproduct of her social isolation. The two of them had to make a journey -- both in the physical and emotional sense -- to discover their respective strengths and overcome their shortfalls.

 

Contrast that with Celestia and Luna: both were prepared to lead Equestria by the time of their first confrontation with Discord. Even when Luna entered her descent into darkness, Celestia appeared more than capable of ruling Equestria on her own -- a fact born out over the course of Luna's banishment. We've never seen Celestia learn a lesson about who she is or what her role may be; presumably that occurred well in advance of the any of the events displayed in the show. Luna had to learn her lesson the hard way (i.e., being banished in the moon), but her brief existence as Night Mare Moon hardly seems to count as her "let it go" moment.

 

If we try and compare Luna and Elsa, we are likely going to draw the conclusion that the two of them were motivated by very different factors: Elsa wanted (at least initially) to be left alone; Luna, in becoming Night Mare Moon, wanted the adoration of her subjects; Elsa's exile was self-imposed; Luna's exile was forced upon her because she knowingly threatened the whole of Equestria. Jeric is right to identify jealousy fueling Luna's actions as Night Mare Moon, whereas fear and anxiety pushed Elsa to the fringe of society. Whilst I can see how someone might draw a connection between Luna and Elsa, their similarities do not run as deeply as a first glance would suggest.

 

Anna doesn't fit neatly with either Celestia or Luna. She's adorkable, not unlike how Luna is throughout "Luna Eclipsed"; however, Luna seems to very quickly grasp social conventions after the episode and takes her job far more seriously. Much of Anna's actions stem from her intuitive, well-meaning spirit, whereas Luna appears to take after Celestia and play things more carefully. In other words, Anna is often like the well-intentioned bull in the china shop: she might cause a mess, but she's doing so because she cares so much. I don't see that in Princess Luna's character -- and certainly not in Celestia's occasionally playful yet composed attitude.

 

There exists too large of an experience gap -- and therefore a confidence gap -- between Elsa and Celestia. We've almost always seen Celestia when she is in near total command of a situation; on the other hand, Frozen focused heavily on Elsa not being in command of her destiny, even when she thought she had discovered liberation in isolation. It's easy to forget, I think, that Elsa is still fairly young (21 years of age, if I'm not mistaken) and lacks comfort in most social engagements. She hasn't developed the skills of a a chess master like Celestia or, say, Nick Fury. Who knows whether that is even her calling.

 

(My goodness. I just compared Elsa, Celestia, and Nick Fury in the same thought. I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed.)

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Well, none of the posts here surprise me. It's pretty much a given that, despite coming from a series of cartoon episodes and comics that, for Celetia and Luna appearances, possibly have a bit more "running time" than the standalone movie Frozen (which will eventually not be standalone, as Frozen's characters are already about to branch out into franchise media, such as tbe ABC show Once Upon A Time)

... tha, uh depite Celestia and Luna having been around longer... that their characterization is kinda flat and smple. Which makes sense because the are side characters in a not-so-serious cartoon, while Frozen is a big-deal Disney event movie musical and elsa and Anna are tbe main characters.

 

 

With that fact being kind of obvious... does anyone just wanna talk about the inherent cuteness, prettiness, or character design aspects of threse characters?

 

... I like how hammy Princess Luna is.

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One I tend to see Luna as Elsa because of more than one reason...

 

 

A dark past 

 

(letting go) of the fears she has been hiding all the years 

 

fairly similar personality 

 

 

 

 

with Celestia and Anna though they don't fit but from the stuff Luna has in common with Elsa I like to think it the way...

 

 

and preferring one over another I'm gonna be 100% honest here I prefer Luna/Elsa from the way I can easily relate to both of them

 

 

in many ways with Celestia/Anna (well Anna a little) I can't relate as well with them as I do with Luna/Elsa...

 

 

hopefully this sums it up  :unsure:

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Luna and Celestia differ from Anna and Elsa in that one group has an actual 3 dimensional character.Over the course of Frozen, Anna doesn't change at all, and Elsa's change was so rushed we have no confirmation whether it's permanent or not.

 In contrast, Luna has gone from a mare consumed by jealousy and hatred to a mare that just wants to be liked. Later, we see she also has a rough personality, competitive side, and a crippling need to be better than her sister. She does dreamwalking on the side, helping fillies and colts to become better ponies. She also has an intricate knowledge of traps; before she got her cutie mark, she designed the trap systems in the castle of the two sisters

Celestia had to deal with the banishment of her sister and the ex-communication of her pupil. She's serious; she knows when to put her people above her personal feelings. Despite this, she still has a fun side; she enjoys pranks and even has a yearly comedy show she puts on for the populace. She's also willing to fight for them, and more than willing to sacrifice herself to save the ponies she cares about. Even then, we know she's not perfect; years ago she put love and loneliness above her kingdom once and nearly destroyed two worlds. She did attempt to rectify the situation though, because Celestia will always stand up for the people she cares about.

By contrast, Frozen is more closely connected to G1 MLP than G4, since it focuses on the things that happen rather than characters thoughts and feelings, it's an action driven narrative.

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Luna and Celestia differ from Anna and Elsa in that one group has an actual 3 dimensional character.Over the course of Frozen, Anna doesn't change at all, and Elsa's change was so rushed we have no confirmation whether it's permanent or not.

 

I think this implies that not changing one's character through the course of the story necessarily means they're one-dimensional -- but what about characters who are interesting because they do not, in fact, alter themselves despite the crisis they must weather? For example, in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, the fact that Steve Rogers did not compromise his own moral compass is one reason why the movie was so interesting (at least I think so). He didn't encounter a profound alteration in terms of his overall worldview. A refusal to change can therefore serve as an interesting narrative device.

 

On another note, though, both Anna and Elsa do go through their own respective character arcs: Elsa learns that running away from one's problems does not solve them, and Anna discovered that the world can be difficult but still requires the response of a caring heart. Elsa obviously outright states and demonstrates her perspective change, but I don't think that detracts from the subtlety of her journey.

 

In contrast, Luna has gone from a mare consumed by jealousy and hatred to a mare that just wants to be liked. Later, we see she also has a rough personality, competitive side, and a crippling need to be better than her sister. She does dreamwalking on the side, helping fillies and colts to become better ponies.

 

Interestingly, there was a song cut from Frozen, entitled "More Than Just a Spare", that had Anna lamenting how she is always in her sister's shadow and will never become the heir. At the end of the song, however, she accepts her role as she realizes being available to those who need you is very important.

 

Clearly the song never made it into the film, but as the notes to the track state, it was helpful for the writers in better understanding Anna's character and why she behaved the way she did. If we feel inclined to use MLP's supplementary material (i.e., media from outside of the show), I think it's fair to point toward this song and acknowledge there's more to Anna than a cute, bumbling charmer.

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I think this implies that not changing one's character through the course of the story necessarily means they're one-dimensional -- but what about characters who are interesting because they do not, in fact, alter themselves despite the crisis they must weather? For example, in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, the fact that Steve Rogers did not compromise his own moral compass is one reason why the movie was so interesting (at least I think so). He didn't encounter a profound alteration in terms of his overall worldview. A refusal to change can therefore serve as an interesting narrative device.

 

On another note, though, both Anna and Elsa do go through their own respective character arcs: Elsa learns that running away from one's problems does not solve them, and Anna discovered that the world can be difficult but still requires the response of a caring heart. Elsa obviously outright states and demonstrates her perspective change, but I don't think that detracts from the subtlety of her journey.

 

 

Interestingly, there was a song cut from Frozen, entitled "More Than Just a Spare", that had Anna lamenting how she is always in her sister's shadow and will never become the heir. At the end of the song, however, she accepts her role as she realizes being available to those who need you is very important.

 

Clearly the song never made it into the film, but as the notes to the track state, it was helpful for the writers in better understanding Anna's character and why she behaved the way she did. If we feel inclined to use MLP's supplementary material (i.e., media from outside of the show), I think it's fair to point toward this song and acknowledge there's more to Anna than a cute, bumbling charmer.

Watching the outtakes only leaves me confused.They solve a huge amount of problems I had with the movie. The question is why did they remove them when they're half or more of the characters personality... I don't know what Disney was thinking, these songs practically define them as individuals.

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Watching the outtakes only leaves me confused.They solve a huge amount of problems I had with the movie. The question is why did they remove them when they're half or more of the characters personality... I don't know what Disney was thinking, these songs practically define them as individuals.

 

Time is an economy onto itself; they only have 90 minutes for the movie, so they need to choose their scenes carefully. In all honesty, "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?", "For the First Time in Forever", "Love Is an Open Door", and, of course, "Let It Go" all did a splendid job spelling out the characters; also, given the themes of the film, "More Than Just a Spare" would have been out of place, seeing as Anna's ultimate concern was connecting with Elsa, not obsessing over being second fiddle to her older sister. I imagine it would be like Twilight singing about how she and her friends might grow apart during the events of "The Crystal Empire." It's a legitimate concern of sorts, but not one central to the story's premise.

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(edited)

Time is an economy onto itself; they only have 90 minutes for the movie, so they need to choose their scenes carefully. In all honesty, "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?", "For the First Time in Forever", "Love Is an Open Door", and, of course, "Let It Go" all did a splendid job spelling out the characters; also, given the themes of the film, "More Than Just a Spare" would have been out of place, seeing as Anna's ultimate concern was connecting with Elsa, not obsessing over being second fiddle to her older sister. I imagine it would be like Twilight singing about how she and her friends might grow apart during the events of "The Crystal Empire." It's a legitimate concern of sorts, but not one central to the story's premise.

Unfortunately, the lack of these songs damages their character. Throughout this entire movie, I found myself unable to care about them or anything they did, because there's not enough character established to give them that human edge. Celestia and Luna are unique characters, they have a background, a multifaceted personality, and little quirks that make them different. Anna and Elsa aren't all that complex; have no history and no particular quirks that make them stand out. Their feelings move on a beginning-end system with nothing in between. Even their songs are relatively empty: the only one that reveals any in depth thought on the characters is "Let it Go". 

 

I like to think about it this way: If I was asked who Celestia and Luna are, it would take maybe two paragraphs to summarize them. If someone asked me that about Elsa and Anna, I only need two or three sentences to fully describe them. That's the basic difference between them.

Edited by Shimmer5000

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This conversation ... :wub:  

 

 

 

I think it's fair to point toward this song and acknowledge there's more to Anna than a cute, bumbling charmer.

 

Most definitely, but you don't need to look at the deleted song for that. To me Anna also represented the collateral damage of the sisters' parents making the decision that they did to protect both of them. She became defined by her loneliness and the desire to have human companionship was a direct result of that seclusion. I suppose you can almost draw a comparison between Anna and Luna if you believed Luna's jealousy was brought on my a feeling of isolation. Of course that theory does start falling apart when you look at how each character handled the burden of their conflict. Anna's inexperience and immaturity allows her to mistakenly fall for the antagonist (an external conflict) but still never loses sight of her ultimate concern (love that you used that phrase btw). Nightmare Moon is the result of an internal conflict manifesting itself, and she completely lost sight of what really mattered to her in the end.

 

If they reveal that Luna and Celestia had communication problems leading up to their conflict, then I can see a stronger connection being made between them and the Frozen Sisters.

 

Frozen has much depth and symbolism.

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Most definitely, but you don't need to look at the deleted song for that. To me Anna also represented the collateral damage of the sisters' parents making the decision that they did to protect both of them. She became defined by her loneliness and the desire to have human companionship was a direct result of that seclusion. I suppose you can almost draw a comparison between Anna and Luna if you believed Luna's jealousy was brought on my a feeling of isolation. Of course that theory does start falling apart when you look at how each character handled the burden of their conflict. Anna's inexperience and immaturity allows her to mistakenly fall for the antagonist (an external conflict) but still never loses sight of her ultimate concern (love that you used that phrase btw). Nightmare Moon is the result of an internal conflict manifesting itself, and she completely lost sight of what really mattered to her in the end.

 

 

If they reveal that Luna and Celestia had communication problems leading up to their conflict, then I can see a stronger connection being made between them and the Frozen Sisters.

 

Frozen has much depth and symbolism.

Locked doors and other fabricated barriers (e.g., Elsa's gloves; the mountains) -- indeed, Frozen employs a good deal of symbolism drive home its story and characters.

 

I'm in agreement with what you've said, that the final product illustrates Anna as something more than what her surface attributes may imply. In comparing Luna and Anna, I quite agree that the former lost sight of the things truly closest to her heart, whereas Anna was prone to misreading the signs (e.g., the "romance" with Hans) because, as you said, she's immature and isolated. I furthermore had the sense -- and this is relying solely on the show rather than the supplementary materials -- that Luna's isolation was in large part self-imposed, and in that way she and Elsa were more alike. The difference between the two of them is that Luna expressed her frustration in the form of tyranny and jealousy, or "if they don't love me, I'll make them love me" -- a response which is actually more reminiscent of Hans. Elsa, on the other hand, simply wanted to be left alone; it was Anna who helped her recognize the joy of having friends and loved ones.

 

As it stands, though, it's hard for me to draw a straight line between the two sets of sisterly relationships.

 

Anna and Elsa aren't all that complex; have no history and no particular quirks that make them stand out. Their feelings move on a beginning-end system with nothing in between. Even their songs are relatively empty: the only one that reveals any in depth thought on the characters is "Let it Go".

I wholeheartedly disagree. The first act of the film was almost entirely dedicated to establishing their shared history. The whole point of "Do You Want To Build a Snowman?" was that both of them were living in different forms of isolation; yet they ultimately wanted to be together. Consider the fact that the first thing Elsa creates when she's in the mountains is Olaf, a snowman that she and Anna built as children (their final happy memory together): it's the tacit "yes" she always wanted to say to Anna but never felt at ease enough to pursue.

 

But, for want of a lame pun, we should bear in mind that sometimes people are frozen in time. Anna and Elsa necessarily share limited mutual development because that's how they've lived most of their lives: Anna pursues Elsa's company, but Elsa shuts her out. They're stuck in a loop, albeit one which escalates as Elsa's powers grow stronger. Frozen explores the lengths one (i.e., Anna) will go to rekindle what was lost; in other words, it's very much a tale of love frustrated (in more ways than one).

 

Contrast this to MLP: the emphasis on Celestia and Luna's past as displayed in the show was about the rift that grew between them. We're not treated to much background on the matter in the series opener prologue other than that Luna became increasingly jealous of Celestia; she was, in some literal sense, in her older sister's shadow. The resolution is quickly wrapped up at the end of "Friendship is Magic", largely because time was at a premium and the narrative's focus resided with Twilight and her friends.

 

I think the real attractiveness of Celestia and Luna's dynamic is what is left unsaid: what drove Luna to basically unleash the apocalypse on her own world? Did Celestia in fact do her best to assuage her sister's fears, or did she brush them off in the midst of other concerns (i.e., governing Equestria)? I'm hesitant to start drawing from the comics because they aren't acknowledged within the show's central canon. (I know there have been comments to the effect of describing the comics as having some sort canonical basis, although Andy Price admitted it's up to the reader to decide. If left to decide for myself, I would consider the comics as extracanonical, or non-canon, as a main element of canonical status is official consensus on the material's authority.) As far as the show is concerned, the mystery of Celestia and Luna's falling out is by and large preserved at present. That's fine by me, to be honest.

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I don't really think they compare that much at all.  

Elsa is more serious, like Celestia, but that's about all I can compare.

 

Elsa is very self-conscious, not a people person, scared of her power, not confident in how she will rule her kingdom.

Celestia hasn't been shown to doubt herself (that I can think of), she's pretty social, she makes royal decisions and always seems to have a plan and have confidence in her choices.

 

Luna is very formal.  She got jealous and caused her jealousy to get her punished.  Elsa was not really punished by being locked away, and she was only kept in her room because of her carefree playfullness as a child, not from being malicious.  

Anna is very happy, spontaneous, carefree, confident, very social.  

 

They all have very different personalities.

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I wholeheartedly disagree. The first act of the film was almost entirely dedicated to establishing their shared history. The whole point of "Do You Want To Build a Snowman?" was that both of them were living in different forms of isolation; yet they ultimately wanted to be together. Consider the fact that the first thing Elsa creates when she's in the mountains is Olaf, a snowman that she and Anna built as children (their final happy memory together): it's the tacit "yes" she always wanted to say to Anna but never felt at ease enough to pursue.

 

But, for want of a lame pun, we should bear in mind that sometimes people are frozen in time. Anna and Elsa necessarily share limited mutual development because that's how they've lived most of their lives: Anna pursues Elsa's company, but Elsa shuts her out. They're stuck in a loop, albeit one which escalates as Elsa's powers grow stronger. Frozen explores the lengths one (i.e., Anna) will go to rekindle what was lost; in other words, it's very much a tale of love frustrated (in more ways than one).

 

That's...a very good point. I'm going to respectfully step back from this conversation, since it seems i've been looking at this entire movie on a surface level.

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That's...a very good point. I'm going to respectfully step back from this conversation, since it seems i've been looking at this entire movie on a surface level.

 

To be clear, I didn't mean to drive you from the conversation. ^^; I happen to have been thinking about Frozen and its characters recently, so my defense may seem more passionate.

 

I nonetheless encourage you to re-watch Frozen, and then perhaps take a look over at the movie's TV Tropes page. TV Tropes is often very helpful for dissecting media.

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