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Why does Western society hate feminine males?


Prismatica

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If you want to know what happens to a society where many men become more 'feminine' then look at japan.

I should also note that the 'evil' and 'bad' brought us certain things like free speech, democracy, human rights....

 

 

And do you all really think women would prefer 'feminine' men than masculine ones? I mean women and not teenage girls.

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If you want to know what happens to a society where many men become more 'feminine' then look at japan.

 

Or us. You know what those initials at the top of this page stand for right? We all have femininity and masculinity within us. One needs both to be a balanced person. 

 

 

 

I should also note that the 'evil' and 'bad' brought us certain things like free speech, democracy, human rights....

 

No, "evil" did not bring us those things. Wisdom, rationality, and strength did. Things that I would call good.

 

 

 

And do you all really think women would prefer 'feminine' men than masculine ones? I mean women and not teenage girls.

 

That depends on the woman and the man. Not two relationships are alike and no two people are alike.

 

I would prefer to date a Fluttershy or Rarity, but I can understand another pursuing a Rainbow Dash. If you can catch my use of archetype. 

@SpaceOnion:

SpaceOnion... SpaceOnion... SPACEIONION!..... (Dangerzone) (Yes, I am also a major Archer fan!)

Having said that, I do agree with many of your points, but still there is the issue of how the culture at large treats people. (this next statement also goes to steel accord). Society is defined by the mores and views of the people within it. You cannot have a society without people, nor can anypony have a people without a society. When somepony makes a judgement call about society, they are basically refering to the general view of the people that manifest the society as a whole. Anyways, just my 2 bits.

 

And as a whole, western society has been historically far more tolerant of what most modern people would consider alternative lifestyles. (Of course, what some think are bold new ideas have roots far older than they believe.) Precisely because individuality, to greater or lesser degrees as per the individual culture, is placed very high on the list of virtues in countries from central to western Europe and their North American colonial descendants.

 

I would rather be an openly gay man during the sixties here, than one in Russia now.

 

"The general view" is also not objective. To me, the general view of all humanity is welcoming, friendly, respectful, adventurous, and all around good. Because my experience has reaffirmed that through my travels in life. The trash is the exception, not the rule. Obviously, my "general view" is going to be different than your's or another's.

Edited by Steel Accord
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That old proverb comes to mind. When in Rome, do as the Romans.

 

The point is, in any given society, there is a set pattern that you're expected to follow, and you'd be wise not to step too far out of line. If you go against the norms of any society, you're going to have a bad time. That's just the way things work.

 

Is it stupid? Yeah... I agree. But it is the way it is. Trying to change society is only going to give you a headache. It's so much easier to change yourself.

Edited by Admiral Regulus
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Pretty much anything I could've said has been, so...I'm honestly just gonna say that I really wish everyone could be accepting. I'm feminine to an extent and I don't feel bad about it at all. I'm not too brave to show it though. I'm in the west over here and I can confirm that the respecting and loving person like myself is rare where I live. Honestly, I don't have to be involved with every person personally to know the "That's stupid and you should kill yourself" look that people make when they see something unnatural. It's sick. I really wish the people here were more like...the people on here honestly.

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people assume I'm gay because I'm feminine. Little do they know I'm only half gay.

 

 

Gender roles are bullshit. Being male doesn't mean you have to look a certain way, act a certain way, like certain things, or whatever. It all means very little to me. 

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That old proverb comes to mind. When in Rome, do as the Romans.

 

The point is, in any given society, there is a set pattern that you're expected to follow, and you'd be wise not to step too far out of line. If you go against the norms of any society, you're going to have a bad time. That's just the way things work.

 

Is it stupid? Yeah... I agree. But it is the way it is. Trying to change society is only going to give you a headache. It's so much easier to change yourself.

 

Thing is, the Romans were a multi-ethinic society that absorbed the cultural norms of those they conquered. So "do as the Romans" may very well have been what you were already doing. You'd have to have come from very far not to have your culture influence them as much as they influenced you.

 

I would disagree though. Buck the trend! Prove to these nay sayers that "be yourself" is the western norm! I let one of my heroes say it best:

 

captain-america-no-you-move-500x375.jpg

Pretty much anything I could've said has been, so...I'm honestly just gonna say that I really wish everyone could be accepting. I'm feminine to an extent and I don't feel bad about it at all. I'm not too brave to show it though. I'm in the west over here and I can confirm that the respecting and loving person like myself is rare where I live. Honestly, I don't have to be involved with every person personally to know the "That's stupid and you should kill yourself" look that people make when they see something unnatural. It's sick. I really wish the people here were more like...the people on here honestly.

 

Well most of us are of the Western society, so I think that says something to proving the title point wrong. Hell, the entire brony fandom shows how open those in western society are to embracing their femininity and how even those who aren't a part of it can at least see the deviance as just another thing that people do.

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Because we value masculinity over femininity. We applaud women when they take traditional male roles. "Female CEO? you go, girl"

When a male takes a tradtional female role, it's different. Stay at home dad? Not something we normally see worn as a badge of honor.

In fact, Fox news (statistically proven to be the worst news), aired a segment blaming the poor economy on the fact that the number of women making the majority of money of the household was rising and blaming men for allowing it.

 

Now I know what you're thinking, "you just said we applaud women".

Well, progressive people do.

Traditional U.S. mentality is that women are better off being emotional care givers and not taking on traditional male roles.

 

So it's sort of like a heirarchy:

Traditionally powerful men

Traditionally supportive women

Women taking on male roles

Men taking on female roles.

 

I place women above men because it's a fact that we give women more space to break gender roles.

Parents are congratulated for allowing their daughter to play sports and to play pretend doctor instead of nurse.

But how many times do we see that pride turned the other way around; sons playing with dolls, painting their nails, etc?

It may seem as if men are the victims, but the bottom line is, traditionally, we have never valued women as much as men.

It's a patriarchal society.

Naturally it see feminine men as the worst.

Sure, traditionalists do not like to see women take on male roles, but only because it's under the belief that men do it better. Not because they're doing a taboo thing... well kinda. But it's more common to hear a man taking on traditional female roles being called gay, than a woman taking on traditional male roles being called "lesbian".

Case in point, I've never seen a woman called a lesbian for watching DBZ. Bronies, on the other hand...

 

Men are "on top"; the alpha male. They can do it all. So why move down? It's strange and with strangeness comes confusion. Confusion leads to fear. Fear leads to hatred. Hatred leads to discrimination.

 

And ah, there it is.

Edited by pollo20x6
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Well most of us are of the Western society, so I think that says something to proving the title point wrong. Hell, the entire brony fandom shows how open those in western society are to embracing their femininity and how even those who aren't a part of it can at least see the deviance as just another thing that people do.

Actually, that's not entirely true. I mean, where I live, the title of this thread describes everyone I know. That's what I was trying to say.

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Gender roles most likely. I have feminine aspects to my personality as well but the overall hate that I have noticed is online, where it is easy to express such hatred with no consequences. Still, in general, western society really seems to hate when males violate the gender 'rules' that it has developed over the many, many years of this society existing. A boy cannot wear makeup or a young child cannot play with dolls or watch 'girly' shows without ridicule. It is a shame things are still like this for some people. It isn't as mainstream to hate such things for sure and things are getting better, well, except on the internet. The internet is still a hatred breeding ground. (Looking at You..Tube)

 

Ya know something else I don't get? Why are feminine males criticized by some or many for being feminine, when they are often quite cute? :catface: Cuteness is a positive thing.

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Actually, that's not entirely true. I mean, where I live, the title of this thread describes everyone I know. That's what I was trying to say.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. I still don't believe your slice of society is the paragon of western values given that though. When I think of the West as a whole, I think of common citizenship, science, rationality common law, rugged individualism, and the Enlightenment Era.

 

This goes back to my point above. What people perceive ALL of society to be, quite often just comes down to what they have experienced personally. At that point, what can you base it on other than more people talked to or greater area of travel?

Gender roles most likely. I have feminine aspects to my personality as well but the overall hate that I have noticed is online, where it is easy to express such hatred with no consequences. Still, in general, western society really seems to hate when males violate the gender 'rules' that it has developed over the many, many years of this society existing. A boy cannot wear makeup or a young child cannot play with dolls or watch 'girly' shows without ridicule. It is a shame things are still like this for some people. It isn't as mainstream to hate such things for sure and things are getting better, well, except on the internet. The internet is still a hatred breeding ground. (Looking at You..Tube)

 

Ya know something else I don't get? Why are feminine males criticized by some or many for being feminine, when they are often quite cute? :catface: Cuteness is a positive thing.

 

I think you actually hit a point when it comes to the online thing.

 

That, my friends, is not anything about western society or at least not unique to it. It's called G.I.F.T. and I would say that's a far bigger social problem than the one posted on the thread title. Word and action, bereft of responsibility and consequence, it's like winding everyone back to the emotional age and temperament of toddlers. It's the global masquerade ball, only the temporary escape has become an ugly constant.

 

Just to give my personal two cents as to exactly why I think this isn't a problem. I've been given trouble about being a brony by exactly one person . . . my younger brother.

 

No one else I talk to even seems to care, they don't ask questions, they don't make a big deal about it, just shrug and move on. Like I said I liked a show they've never seen. (And that's probably the case!)

Edited by Steel Accord
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Because we (I am quite "girly") are "gay". And being gay is wrong in this "free" country called America.

 

Being gay just stems to being feminine. Again, this is attacking masculinity.

 

Also, as a few others have said, this is not a primarily western thing. This is something that happens everywhere, prominent in historical culture globally. Japan should not be excluded, of all places. Even anime has tons of these undertones, undertones that present females as rather inferior. (excessive crying, weakness, infuriating roles and interests, generally less focused on in most popular animes, or even in quantity, objectification, etc; anything a male would have a most likely have advantage over having a rare chance of sharing these qualities) Let us also not forget Japan's history of being rather extreme, shall we?

 

Both genders both face societal hardships but thus far, we've pulled through enough injustices to hope realistsically most of these threads in our flawed cultures will diminish, perhaps sooner than we think. 

Edited by IncognitoKiwoy
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Because we (I am quite "girly") are "gay". And being gay is wrong in this "free" country called America.

 

WRONG!  :angry: 

 

Maybe in your backwater hovel, but in this free (sincerity) country called the United States, being gay is just another freedom that we have as people and that right is protected by our ideals!

 

You want to see a country where being gay is truly considered wrong? Go to Russia, I'm sure Putin would have words with thee.

 

@,

 

At last, another person not obsessed with cultural self-flagellation who can look at the human condition by the big picture.

Edited by Steel Accord
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Pretty much because of what everyone else just said. Unfortunately there is not much I can really add to this topic besides the fact that I find it pretty disgusting that people in the West are taught at an incredibly young age to conform to these gender roles that really do nothing more than make Western society look incredibly stupid. Thankfully, things are obviously starting to change. It will be slow, but I can almost see a society that has just realized that gender roles are useless. 

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To be honest I think people frown upon feminine girls too. It's like girls are only allowed to be girly if they're  under six years old or something.

 

 I see so many tomboys hating on girly girls, the color pink, things with more girl characters than male characters, etc. That's not to say tomboys are bad. But even my family won't let me do girly stuff. I've always wanted to paint my nails but they think it's too girly and childish...and I'm a girl!

 

I guess girliness is hated in general because it's seen as weak, sissy, and immature.

 

Personally I think anyone should be able to like girly stuff without being made fun of.

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Or us. You know what those initials at the top of this page stand for right? We all have femininity and masculinity within us. One needs both to be a balanced person.

 

The japanese people are dying out because their men have become 'herbivores', rather feminine men than 'manly'.

 

 

 

No, "evil" did not bring us those things. Wisdom, rationality, and strength did. Things that I would call good.

 

And yet people are bashing it, prefering it over other 'superior' cultures.

People should remember that the western culture is dominating the world....for now at least.

 

 

 

That depends on the woman and the man. Not two relationships are alike and no two people are alike. I would prefer to date a Fluttershy or Rarity, but I can understand another pursuing a Rainbow Dash. If you can catch my use of archetype.

 

Not all but most. It's evolution.

 

You all still forget the biological part. There are reason why those gender roles exist and they are thousands of years old. They are integrated into our genes and they simple won't change just because our culture demands it.

 

Most men will still prefer young and attractive women and most women will still long for the rich and powerful alpha male.

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They are integrated into our genes and they simple won't change just because our culture demands it.

I guess they're not in mine. I personally consider myself to be more than a collection of "genes" though. I believe that gender can be overcome by free human beings.

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The japanese people are dying out because their men have become 'herbivores', rather feminine men than 'manly'.

 

I don´t know what eating plants would have to do with being feminine(or maybe this is a metaphor that i am not quite getting), but the actual reason why men in japan have less and less sex is because of the social pressure put onto them.

They have less time for relationships because jobs,educational system etc. forces them to spent so much more time worrying about their career.

Similar reasons apply to the women there.I could give you links, but you just have to google around for two seconds, they are countless reports on the topic.

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I think it would have to depend on what western society you're talking about, remember, there were people here in the US before the settlers came over here.  This society had what was called "Two-spirits" that took on both female and male roles, these people were highly respected because of that.  Sure there was still the whole, "Men hunt while women rear children" thing but there were those that took on both roles.  Such as the man that would weave fabric or the woman that would go hunting, though that would depend on what tribe we're talking about here, I'm not as sure about that as I am with just my tribe.  Gender roles are very much a societal aspect and can be twisted to one's own content, this is the modern age after all.  I don't see the problem with men liking "girly" things nor do I see the problem with a girl taking on a more "manly" role, it's just in said person to be like that.

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I asked a random guy from my Campus this question.... here is his answer....

 

"Because america is a CHRISTIAN nation, and God made Men to act like men, and Women to act like women. It is a SIN to be a girly man"....

 

There is just so much wrong with that statement it hurts...... 

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I don't know. Does Western society hate feminine males? Sure there are a lot of jerks out there, but if you allow their petty words and actions to define an entire society for you, perhaps your viewpoint could use a change as well. Being moderately liberal in most of my beliefs, I'm all for equal treatment and social advancement, but I don't condone "cultural self-flagellation," as Steel Accord puts it, either. I don't apologize to the rest of the world for a background and history that I had nothing to do with. All I can do is control my own actions and conduct myself in a way that doesn't harm others.

 

The whole "anti-woman" thing just isn't part of my experience. I grew up surrounded by women who could, and did, make most of the important decisions in my family and my education. My brother and I liked action figures, but we also played with barbies in my grandparents' basement. When we played make-believe, I didn't hesitate to portray female characters. Contrary to popular belief, the more relaxed gender boundaries I grew up with did not make it any easier for me to understand women (nor was I treated particularly well by my male or female peers). But they did leave me more open to new ideas and appreciating content made by or for women and girls. MLP:FIM is just one example.

 

I do want to add that traditional gender roles are not limited to the West and were firmly in place long, LONG before Western culture as we know it existed. The majority of men tend to be providers, competitors, and decision-makers, while the majority of women tend to be supporters and caretakers. This is not a coincidence. It hasn't been common in most human societies for thousands of years just because men are big meanies.

 

That said, I don't adhere blindly to tradition either. You don't have to fulfill a certain role just because you're a man or a woman. I don't get why some guys like to wear dresses and makeup and stuff like that, but I don't hold it against them. Be the kind of person you are comfortable with.

 

I don't discourage being weak and dependent because it's "womanly". I discourage it because being weak and dependent is a bad thing, whether you're male or female. Unfortunately, this kind of submissive behavior has always been socially acceptable for women, and accepting the same behavior from men will only make things worse. Instead, we should encourage both men and women to be strong and independent, and stop associating positive and negative traits with genders.

I can get on board with this idea.  :)

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I'm all for equal treatment and social advancement, but I don't condone "cultural self-flagellation," as Steel Accord puts it, either. I don't apologize to the rest of the world for a background and history that I had nothing to do with.

Well, I don't have a culture to flagellate. I just look at how people act around me and many subscribe to rather anti-female ideals. Gender roles are founded on inequality.

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 This isn't an issue that happened overnight. This took millennia to occur. 

 

Think about it. In most examples of media, myth & story, feminine characters don't go out to save the day, stand up for themselves or get the job done. They play damsels in distress, affectionate lovers, the rich, greedy, pompous & spoiled, people who either cannot save themselves like the damsels or bystanders or cause the problems in the story like the aristocrats or petty rulers. It's the masculine characters that get things done, that take care of themselves, find the answers to problems, be the rugged adventurer or the ultra tough bad ass. The Rambos, The Leonidas's, The Xena's & Sarah Connor's.

 

 And for the most part I can see their point. Feminist behavior is viewed as unproductive, frivolous, wasteful, dependent, & subservient. When's the last time we've seen a feminine character save the day, lead armies into battle, survive alone in the wilderness or run into a burning building to save a life? Never, cause the moment they do those things, they display masculine characteristics.

 

Look at Rarity. Most feminine member of the cast, yet most of the heroic things she's done, whether it's exchanging hoofticuffs with some changelings or joining Sweetie in the rugged sisterhooves contest would be masculine actions.  

 

 

 

I think this video pretty much explains the whole problem.

http://youtu.be/zXKuF2vFeQo

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I'm sorry to hear that. I still don't believe your slice of society is the paragon of western values given that though. When I think of the West as a whole, I think of common citizenship, science, rationality common law, rugged individualism, and the Enlightenment Era.

 

This goes back to my point above. What people perceive ALL of society to be, quite often just comes down to what they have experienced personally. At that point, what can you base it on other than more people talked to or greater area of travel?

Oh, yeah, I mean do agree with you there! Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like what happens to me suddenly describes everything else. I'd be a bit of a stereotype now wouldn't I? :P You are right. I only meant to contribute to the fact that, yes, people in my area tend to not be so friendly about this kind of thing but not that it describes the whole western side. That's all. ^^

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