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Why does Western society hate feminine males?


Prismatica

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I'm a feminine male who's currently dating a guy, and you think I'm weak? Pfft, I'll step on your soul. >_>

 

As Twilight Sparkle put it: "Just because somepony is ladylike, doesn't make her weak!"

 

I'm not transgendered, but you get my point.

 

Little harsh maybe, but I agree.

 

"Step on your soul" though? Hmmm oddly spiritual of you.  :umad:

 

(Not a formal indictment, just a gentle elbow in the ribs.)

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I'm a feminine male who's currently dating a guy, and you think I'm weak? Pfft, I'll step on your soul. >_>

 

As Twilight Sparkle put it: "Just because somepony is ladylike, doesn't make her weak!"

 

I'm not transgendered, but you get my point.

And apparently you completely missed my point. (Or maybe I didn't explain it well.)

 

If you actually took time to read my post, I said that we shouldn't associate positive and negative traits with genders. Those quotation marks around the words "feminine" and "masculine" weren't just for show. I don't agree with the usage of the words. If you look up their definition, you'll see why.

 

Anyway, I was also stating the issue that people are too accepting of women with the "damsel in distress" mentality, but it's unacceptable for men to do the same thing.

There's two solutions to this (as far as I know): We could either give women the same standards as men, and discourage the submissive behavior they're traditionally allowed to have.

Or, we could allow both men and women be overly dependent under the guise of "being who they are".

They both lead to equal treatment, right? Unfortunately, the latter doesn't require as much discipline as it does pats on the back.

But hey, at least both men and women would be treated equally! Sure now both men and women are now allowed to be overly-dependent, but at least it's equal treament!

 

That is, unless you were only being ironic, and the joke completely flew over my head. If that's the case, then forget I said anything.

Edited by SpaceOnion
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And apparently you completely missed my point. (Or maybe I didn't explain it well.)

 

If you actually took time to read my post, I said that we shouldn't associate positive and negative traits with genders. Those quotation marks around the words "feminine" and "masculine" weren't just for show. I don't agree with the usage of the words. If you look up their definition, you'll see why.

 

Anyway, I was also stating the issue that people are too accepting of women with the "damsel in distress" mentality, but it's unacceptable for men to do the same thing.

There's two solutions to this (as far as I know): We could either give women the same standards as men, and discourage the submissive behavior they're traditionally allowed to have.

Or, we could allow both men and women be overly dependent under the guise of "being who they are".

They both lead to equal treatment, right? Unfortunately, the latter doesn't require as much discipline as it does pats on the back.

But hey, at least both men and women would be treated equally! Sure now both men and women are allowed to be overly-dependent, but hey! At least it's equal treament!

 

That is, unless you were only being ironic, and the joke completely flew over my head. If that's the case, then forget I said anything.

 

Or, we could allow each individual to be whoever he or she wishes to be and thus have a more perspectively diverse society.

 

I agree with your statement in that people shouldn't be dependent and weak and especially not be encouraged to be so. But there's a difference between being those things and being truly effeminate.

 

You know who's a pretty good example? Captain Jack Sparrow. He's flamboyant, dramatic, and prefers running and persuasion to fighting. Yet one would make a mistake in calling him weak or inept.

 

Hell Sterling Archer can be pretty effeminate at times with his love of furry animals, sharp dress sense, and extensive knowledge of classical literature.

Edited by Steel Accord
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Or, we could allow each individual to be whoever he or she wishes to be and thus have a more perspectively diverse society.

 

I agree with your statement in that people shouldn't be dependent and weak and especially not be encouraged to be so. But there's a difference between being those things and being truly effeminate.

 

You know who's a pretty good example? Captain Jack Sparrow. He's flamboyant, dramatic, and prefers running and persuasion to fighting. Yet one would make a mistake in calling him weak or inept.

Which is why I think terms such as masculine and feminine are obsolete. Liking animals and being a coward shouldn't have anything to do with someone's gender.

 

But I guess I could've just said that people should be redeemable in some way, and not use "That's the way I am." as an excuse.

Edited by SpaceOnion
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Which is why I think terms such as masculine and feminine are obsolete. Liking animals and being a coward shouldn't have anything to do with someone's gender.

 

But I guess I could've just said that people should be redeemable in some way, and not use "That's the way I am." as an excuse.

 

I agree. People shouldn't make excuses for themselves and should own up to their actions.

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You could consider rape right, but that doesn't make it so.

 

Who decides what is right and what not? You assume that the majority of the world think rape is a really bad thing which is true but what if the opposite is true? What if the majority thinks its okay? Is then still bad or now right?

 

Who exactly decides what is good or evil?

 

 

 

Gender is based on culture and is not dictated by genetics.

 

Then you have to explain me why they even exist then when they aren't based on genetics.

Why were they invented and who did it? Why did the human race for the most of its existince followed those roles?

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Little harsh maybe, but I agree.

 

"Step on your soul" though? Hmmm oddly spiritual of you.  :umad:

 

(Not a formal indictment, just a gentle elbow in the ribs.)

It's a metaphor similar to 'raining cats and dogs'. Even The Amazing Atheist, the harshest militant atheist on Youtube, admits to saying 'bless you' when someone sneezes.

Edited by Sigma
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Then you have to explain me why they even exist then when they aren't based on genetics. Why were they invented and who did it? Why did the human race for the most of its existince followed those roles?

Why do they exist? Why does government exist? Why does ethnicity and culture exist? None of those things are based on genetics. They were developed over time to control humans, to lead them down a narrow path. Gender has existed for a long time but it's never the same. It is different depending on what culture one lives in and even in the same culture, it may change over time. If it was genetic, it would never change or it would take a million years to do so. Evolution is very slow. But with something that is taught, all it takes is for humans to stop teaching it and it would go away.

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Mostly due to gender stereotypes. It is seen as "expressing yourself" and "defying gender roles" for girls to play video games, or like superheroes. But as soon as a guy likes My Little Pony, they are seen as, "gay" or, "not manly." 

 

Yeah, there is obvious hypocrisy here.

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Mostly due to gender stereotypes. It is seen as "expressing yourself" and "defying gender roles" for girls to play video games, or like superheroes. But as soon as a guy likes My Little Pony, they are seen as, "gay" or, "not manly." 

 

Yeah, there is obvious hypocrisy here.

 

Yet here we are without shame to admit our passion. Are we not also a part of western society as well? By the very fact that I still consider myself a patriot of my country and an unabashed brony without compromise or conflict shows that a part of "western society" does not hate feminine males.

 

 

Who decides what is right and what not? You assume that the majority of the world think rape is a really bad thing which is true but what if the opposite is true? What if the majority thinks its okay? Is then still bad or now right?   Who exactly decides what is good or evil?

 

If all the world decided rape was right, that would not make it so. I'd soon find myself a wanted criminal for various accounts of assault. Frankly I'm disgusted you consider such a possibility viable!

 

No one decides what is right or wrong, there are things that by their nature are right and wrong. Wisdom doesn't come from deciding which is which, it comes from discerning which is which. 

It's a metaphor similar to 'raining cats and dogs'. Even The Amazing Atheist, the harshest militant atheist on Youtube, admits to saying 'bless you' when someone sneezes.

 

I call that blatant, if minor, hypocrisy. "God, bless you" came from people wishing a small prayer upon those they thought might have contracted the plague, and thus were beseeching the Powers that Be either you not have it or that you will soon be joining them. Even shortening it to "bless you" is now taking it upon your own divine authority of the same wish.

 

That may not be what they mean, but that's the origin of the phrase.

Edited by Steel Accord
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I wouldn't know if it's the same thing EVERYWHERE in western civilization. Sure, you mentioned of cases where the society shuns the effeminate boy, but what about places where it's more commonplace? There're places and parts of society where, even if you get scoffed at by one individual, you'll always get backed-up. It's not so black and white.

 

That being said, i do agree with you that as a whole, there's much that can be done. Society is just slow to uproot itself from it's prejudice and stereotype-laden ways, i suppose. If you compare western civilization to it's counterparts, you'll see that it's come a long way, though - there are places in the world where it's downright illegal to be homosexual, and you can get executed for it. Considering that is no longer the case with western civ, i think we got off easy.

 

I do think less masculine guys deserve an equal opportunity, in every social aspect. I'll tell it to you now, i'm definitely male, i don't consider myself to be overtly masculine - or at least i don't follow each and every acceptable masculine norm. I don't give too much of a damn if anyone's got a problem with my lifestyle and social status though.

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Why do they exist? Why does government exist? Why does ethnicity and culture exist? None of those things are based on genetics. They were developed over time to control humans, to lead them down a narrow path. Gender has existed for a long time but it's never the same. It is different depending on what culture one lives in and even in the same culture, it may change over time. If it was genetic, it would never change or it would take a million years to do so. Evolution is very slow. But with something that is taught, all it takes is for humans to stop teaching it and it would go away.

 

Are you serious?

You are telling me that those were 'just invented' to control us.

 

It has actually. In nearly every culture of this world the gender roles are clear:

Man rule, work and hunt.

Women cook, raise the children and stay home.

 

And as you yourself said, evolution is slow and that's why those roles will stay for a long time.

 

 

 

If all the world decided rape was right, that would not make it so. I'd soon find myself a wanted criminal for various accounts of assault. Frankly I'm disgusted you consider such a possibility viable! No one decides what is right or wrong, there are things that by their nature are right and wrong. Wisdom doesn't come from deciding which is which, it comes from discerning which is which.

 

But WHO decides it isn't right? Again, you have been taught that it is a horrible thing. Now imagine you grew up in a society where it is the norm. I'm pretty sure you would think differently.

 

In many species rape does occur naturally and in many it is an viable strategy for reproduction. We are the execption to it.

 

By the way, the fact that rape is a horribly thing is a rather modern thing. In earlier times it was pretty much common and depending on the woman's social status even justified.

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And as you yourself said, evolution is slow and that's why those roles will stay for a long time.

For a species that has gone to space, that is a very limiting mindset. Humans don't have to be constrained, especially by something as silly as gender. If gender is part of a genetic condition then why are there so many that do not abide by it? It would not have to be imposed. It wouldn't even be a choice. We wouldn't be having a conversation about it.

 

Personally, I will never tell people how to live. Males and females should choose their own destiny.

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But WHO decides it isn't right? Again, you have been taught that it is a horrible thing. Now imagine you grew up in a society where it is the norm. I'm pretty sure you would think differently.

 

Never. :okiedokielokie:

 

Do you decide whether the ice caps are cold and the Saharan dessert is hot? No. Humans could have called hot, "cold" and cold, "hot" but they would mean the same thing.

 

Good and evil are objective to human observance.

 

 

 

In many species rape does occur naturally and in many it is an viable strategy for reproduction. We are the execption to it.

 

And why do you think that is? Because we decided rape was wrong arbitrarily or because we perceived the violation of consent as crossing a line?

 

 

 

By the way, the fact that rape is a horribly thing is a rather modern thing. In earlier times it was pretty much common and depending on the woman's social status even justified.

 

"Justified" in the legal sense, not in the moral sense. Violation of someone's body, property, and choice is evil.

 

If I beat someone over the head, stole their plans for a new product, and sold it off as my own, that would be wrong.

 

I . . . am seriously disturbed that I'm even having this conversation.  :unsure:  I would think rape being evil kind of goes without saying!

Edited by Steel Accord
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For a species that has gone to space, that is a very limiting mindset. Humans don't have to be constrained, especially by something as silly as gender. If gender is part of a genetic condition then why are there so many that do not abide by it? It would not have to be imposed. It wouldn't even be a choice. We wouldn't be having a conversation about it. Personally, I will never tell people how to live. Males and females should choose their own destiny.

 

Well, why did we go to space? Because a bunch old males were measuring their dick size. Who got the biggest, who will reach space first? :lol:

And how many? Man still watch sports, drink and fight while woman still complain, tattle about the neighbor's weight and take care of children.

A certain percent won't follow the traditonal roles but they will stay rather small.

 

They can (in western society the do) but they also have to face consequences too.

 

You can be a girly man but if you don't get a girlfriend then it's your fault.

 

You don't have to shave your legs and arms but don't complain if men would rather bed a dog than you.

 

 

You all have mostly the choice but it's about the acceptance of the others.

 

 

 

 

Never. :okiedokielokie: Do you decide whether the ice caps are cold and the Saharan dessert is hot? No. Humans could have called hot, "cold" and cold, "hot" but they would mean the same thing. Good and evil are objective to human observance.

 

And why are you so exactly sure? You have been raised like this and that's why you think so.

 

 

 

And why do you think that is? Because we decided rape was wrong arbitrarily or because we perceived the violation of consent as crossing a line?

 

Consider this thought: In most cultures rape was a crime not against the women but the husband.

Let this sink in and think about why.

 

 

 

"Justified" in the legal sense, not in the moral sense. Violation of someone's body, property, and choice is evil. If I beat someone over the head, stole their plans for a new product, and sold it off as my own, that would be wrong. I . . . am seriously disturbed that I'm even having this conversation. :unsure:I would think rape being evil kind of goes without saying!

 

From a darwinistic view, you were.

 

I know but sadly that wasn't always like now.

That's the reason why peolpe shouldn't complain about our current time. Life used to be more terrifying.

Be thankful you live now, especially if you are a female.

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Well, why did we go to space? Because a bunch old males were measuring their dick size. Who got the biggest, who will reach space first? :lol: And how many? Man still watch sports, drink and fight while woman still complain, tattle about the neighbor's weight and take care of children. A certain percent won't follow the traditonal roles but they will stay rather small. They can (in western society the do) but they also have to face consequences too. You can be a girly man but if you don't get a girlfriend then it's your fault. You don't have to shave your legs and arms but don't complain if men would rather bed a dog than you. You all have mostly the choice but it's about the acceptance of the others.

If that was some kind of compensation then they obviously had the smallest. It matters not though.

 

As to how many? I don't know. Gender is something that's learned and passed down. Scrub it from all popular media and culture and see how long it lasts. I don't watch sports, drink only with friends like probably most females do and never fight. As for women, they can just not do any of that. If they wanted to. Women aren't robots.

 

As for men not getting girlfriends, maybe girls need to adjust their priorities. If they don't want to engage in emotional domination and intolerance, they should stop basing their desires on the fake and superficial side of things.

 

And women used to not shave their legs or arms. Another gender thing that is only from modern times.

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And why are you so exactly sure? You have been raised like this and that's why you think so.

 

Because people are good. We all, or at least most of us, have a conscience. Something in our intuition that tells us when we are seeing or doing something that we know in our hearts is wrong.  

 

In this case, it's nature not nurture. Human nature, not homo sapien, human nature.

 

 

 

Consider this thought: In most cultures rape was a crime not against the women but the husband. Let this sink in and think about why.

 

I'm not stupid, I know that was the case for many.

 

Again, rape = bad. I can't think of a more clearly evil thing apart from genocide!

 

Oh but you probably have some pretzel logic way in which even that could be "justified" before Holy Gaia!

 

 

 

From a darwinistic view, you were.

 

Darwinism is a description of how species evolve, not the prescription of how society should operate.

 

 

 

I know but sadly that wasn't always like now. That's the reason why peolpe shouldn't complain about our current time. Life used to be more terrifying. Be thankful you live now, especially if you are a female.

 

Believe it or not, we are in agreement there, things have gotten better. They will continue to get better.

 

That didn't make rape right, retroactively just because it happened before it was "considered" wrong.

Edited by Steel Accord
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If that was some kind of compensation then they obviously had the smallest. It matters not though.

 

Yeah but that's why we got into space. Because men do compete against each other, it's what our species drives forward.

 

 

 

As to how many? I don't know. Gender is something that's learned and passed down. Scrub it from all popular media and culture and see how long it lasts. I don't watch sports, drink only with friends like probably most females do and never fight. As for women, they can just not do any of that. If they wanted to. Women aren't robots. As for men not getting girlfriends, maybe girls need to adjust their priorities. If they don't want to engage in emotional domination and intolerance, they should stop basing their desires on the fake and superficial side of things. And women used to not shave their legs or arms. Another gender thing that is only from modern times.

 

So you mean i could teach a boy to love men instead women? Interesting...

 

 

They won't. I heard about a phenomen were well-educated and wealthy women would rather stay alone than marry a man with less wealth.

They simple won't change their expectations.

Take a guess why.

 

Actually they did or at least tried to. They are archeological funds of very sharp tools used for shaving. It's older than you think.

 

 

 

Because people are good. We all, or at least most of us, have a conscience. Something in our intuition that tells us when we are seeing or doing something that we know in our hearts is wrong. In this case, it's nature not nurture. Human nature, not homo sapien, human nature.

 

You know, since i have been in the fandom i heard quite the opposite.

 

 

 

m not stupid, I know that was the case for many. Again, rape = bad. I can't think of a more clearly evil thing apart from genocide! Oh but you probably have some pretzel logic way in which even that could be "justified" before Holy Gaia!

 

Dude, relax. I wasn't trieng to justify rape. It is an horribly thing and i would love to see it gone extinct but it's not that easy.

 

Well, i have some theories why it is even there but that would just depress you and could event turn you into a misanthrope.

 

 

 

 

Darwinism is a description of how species evolve, not the prescription of how society should operate. Unless . . . that's exactly what you want.

 

I meant in the 'evil' way. You know, someone's stronger or better than you and take's all your stuff. By being stronger or simply more powerful than you his actions are justified.

Yes, i know that horribly but how early humans operated. Stronger tribe exterminates weaker tribe.

 

 

 

Believe it or not, we are in agreement there, things have gotten better. They will continue to get better. That didn't make rape right, retroactively just because it happened before it was "considered" wrong.

 

Hopefully it will but that will take a very long time unless we start genetic engineering on ourselves.

We simply have an outdated OS that can't deal with the new apps.

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Yeah but that's why we got into space. Because men do compete against each other, it's what our species drives forward.

 

True, but competition doesn't have to be fueled by a desire to dominate our opponent as much as a desire to attain the goal.

 

 

 

You know, since i have been in the fandom i heard quite the opposite.

 

This fandom is my proof that people are.

 

I've made more friends and had more pleasant discourse with others in the few years I've been a brony than all previous years of my life.

 

 

 

Dude, relax. I wasn't trieng to justify rape. It is an horribly thing and i would love to see it gone extinct but it's not that easy.   Well, i have some theories why it is even there but that would just depress you and could event turn you into a misanthrope.

 

Shoot.

 

My faith in humanity is unshakeable. -_- 

 

 

 

I meant in the 'evil' way. You know, someone's stronger or better than you and take's all your stuff. By being stronger or simply more powerful than you his actions are justified. Yes, i know that horribly but how early humans operated. Stronger tribe exterminates weaker tribe.

 

Our main discourse seems to be that you are describing how things are or were, and I am more concerned with how they should be.

 

Yes, I'm aware of the "might makes right" bullshit that humanity has abided by for much of it's history. It happened. I'm not denying that. My only gripe is that such practices should be discontinued and I think they can be, have, and are continuing to be.

 

 

 

Hopefully it will but that will take a very long time unless we start genetic engineering on ourselves. We simply have an outdated OS that can't deal with the new apps.

 

Again . . . we are oddly in absolute agreement. Transhumanism is the logical next step to divorcing the human individual from the bounds of nature.

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So you mean i could teach a boy to love men instead women?

Sexuality is not gender.

 

 

 

Take a guess why

They choose that way of life.

 

 

 

Actually they did or at least tried to.

Why? Shaving one's legs has no purpose.

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Because western society often denounces feminism and females in general. It is anti-woman. Males are taught that it is the ultimate insult to be compared to a female. "Don't be a girl/that's for girls" is a simplistic version of the insult thrown by children to reinforce the dominion of males in society and to shun those males that do not conform.

 

Yeah I'm gonna need a citation on that one, in regards to it having to do with anti-women.

 

 

 

The trend seems to be that the situation is slowly getting better, but there are still so many people who believe that the traditional gender roles are "set in stone" or "just natural" or something like that.

 

They're ignorant. Gender is learned and it is something that can be unlearned.

 

There are, apparently, actual legitimate natural differences between males and females in terms of general interests, etc. While I'm sure there is some stereotyping going on, it doesn't mean that boys and girls are exactly alike, that there's no difference between their regular interests. You cannot force people to change what they like, who  they are.

 

Honestly, as far as I'm aware, the "dislike" of feminine males is more about certain expectations of men in western society, and ridicule may occur if a male fails to meet those expectations, or just acts abnormal for their gender. Misogyny is irrelevant.

 

And no I'm not going to expect anyone of you to take my word for it until I can be assed to dig up some trustworthy studies on the subject matter. Or you can educate yourselves, alternatively.

Edited by Wulfgar Von Heltzer
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@@Wulfgar Von Heltzer,

 

I actually agree with you and Silver to different extents.

 

Yes, men and women are just different. Gender certainly does inform personality to a great extent.

 

I only disagree in that I don't think it's the final word on identity and that outliers always happen. 

 

No, there are exceptions to the rule, but yes, you shouldn't force people to be something they aren't. So how bout we just let people do and be who they truly are, as long as they aren't hurting anybody or anything, and people who want to everyone into specific roles they don't need to or want to be in, as well as SJW marxists. who oppose stereotypical gender and racial roles, but believe there needs to be an equal amount of every race and gender in every single field of work or hobby, even tho that's absolute insanity and can never realistically work, so they wanna force specific races and genders in and out of certain fields just to attain their deranged utopia of forced equality, can just fuck right off?

 

How bout that? Just let people be who the fuck they are.

Edited by Wulfgar Von Heltzer
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No, there are exceptions to the rule, but yes, you shouldn't force people to be something they aren't. So how bout we just let people do and be who they truly are, as long as they aren't hurting anybody or anything, and people who want to everyone into specific roles they don't need to or want to be in, as well as SJW marxists. who oppose stereotypical gender and racial roles, but believe there needs to be an equal amount of every race and gender in every single field of work or hobby, even tho that's absolute insanity and can never realistically work, so they wanna force specific races and genders in and out of certain fields just to attain their deranged utopia of forced equality, can just fuck right off?

 

How bout that? Just let people be who the fuck they are.

 

That's what most of us want, my friend, no need to use the royal Capslock.

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That's what most of us want, my friend, no need to use the royal Capslock.

 

Sorry, I kinda rambled a bit there. But yeah, I don't believe it has anything to do with hatred of females, I think there are just certain expectations of men in western society. Men are expected be to strong, and women are allowed to be weak, so a weak man is seen as feminine and therefore that's seen as a bad thing. But weakness in general is bad.

 

That, and there are just certain things a lot of people see as girly, like MLP, and the color pink, and people who deviate from the norm and like things that is perceived to be abnormal for them to like, will get ridiculed for acting differently.

 

So I think that's all I have to say, yeah.

Edited by Wulfgar Von Heltzer
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