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Why Aren't You an Athiest?


Midnight Gaze

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Well, it's a pretty myopic viewpoint to assume that there aren't other other worlds, other universes, other possibilities. You have to recognize that scale is all relative. To the bacteria in your gut, there is no universe beyond that. To the dinosaurs on the prehistoric Earth, there was no universe beyond that. To the fish in the sea, there is nothing beyond that. To the little green men on some planet a million light years away, there is nothing beyond that. To us here, in this universe we all share, we again assume there is nothing beyond what we see.

 

But we all know, the universe is BIG. Our entire lives are nothing but a grain of sand compared to all of human history. All of human history is nothing but a grain of sand compared to the universe's history. The entire solar system isn't even a grain of sand compared to the many stars in the galaxy, and the many galaxies in the universe. We're not just talking billions, but trillions. We truly can't even fathom how big everything is.

 

So, come on. What are the odds of that we'll ever find the ending point? Really? To say that there is such a point, especially one tangible to us, strikes me as being utterly absurd.

 

 

Well there's this nice theory called "The Big Bang Theory" that I suggest you look into.  All of our evidence (and it's very good evidence) at the moment points to the universe being finite.  Another thing you should consider is that space itself is actually expanding, and (from what we can predict) the Universe will eventually cease to be able to support life.  Not only does the "Big Freeze" look inevitable, but it is likely that eventually nucleons will decay and the very structure of matter as we know it will be forever destroyed.

 

Aside from that, why are you making assumptions (using the hasty generalization fallacy) about there being "other universes?"  As I've said before, "where there's one, there's more" isn't logically valid.  >.>

Edited by John
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Well, it's a pretty myopic viewpoint to assume that there aren't other other worlds, other universes, other possibilities. You have to recognize that scale is all relative. To the bacteria in your gut, there is no universe beyond that. To the dinosaurs on the prehistoric Earth, there was no universe beyond that. To the fish in the sea, there is nothing beyond that. To the little green men on some planet a million light years away, there is nothing beyond that. To us here, in this universe we all share, we again assume there is nothing beyond what we see.

 

But we all know, the universe is BIG. Our entire lives are nothing but a grain of sand compared to all of human history. All of human history is nothing but a grain of sand compared to the universe's history. The entire solar system isn't even a grain of sand compared to the many stars in the galaxy, and the many galaxies in the universe. We're not just talking billions, but trillions. We truly can't even fathom how big everything is.

 

So, come on. What are the odds of that we'll ever find the ending point? Really? To say that there is such a point, especially one tangible to us, strikes me as being utterly absurd.

An Atheist, who believe in things only they can see, is telling a Christian to believe in something that can't be seen.

*ding*

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Well there's this nice theory called "The Big Bang Theory" that I suggest you look into.  All of our evidence (and it's very good evidence) at the moment points to the universe being finite.  Another thing you should consider is that space itself is actually expanding, and (from what we can predict) the Universe will eventually cease to be able to support life.  Not only does the "Big Freeze" look inevitable, but it is likely that eventually nucleons will decay and the very structure of matter as we know it will be forever destroyed.

 

Thank you, I absolutely adore your sarcasm here. I do appreciate that. :3

 

But you're right, I don't necessarily disagree. Yep. That's the second law of thermodynamics, for you. Everything decays, everything dies. The universe moves from a state of highly concentrated energy to a state of equilibrium—cold and lifeless in the end.

 

Now, as for the big bang itself, it's a rather tricky thing. I think of the big bang as being a point of singularity, really. The universe behaved very differently in its infancy than it does now. Our typical models of the laws of physics don't really work, in the same way that Newton's laws don't adequately describe general relativity. The big bang, as far as we know, was a state of extremely high matter and energy density, at what we know as the earliest moments of the universe. We have little understanding of what happened, how, or why. All we know is that it happened.

 

Why is our knowledge so limited, though? Because we can't see beyond that. We have no way of knowing what was beyond and before the big bang, at least not yet. It's like a wall to us. A big, bright, dense wall of craziness. It's like staring into the sun... of course you can't see anything else in the sky, because it's so bright. The big bang is was such a big event, that we can't see beyond it. Anything that existed before it was obviously compressed and condensed, and no longer distinguishable. It's like looking through a trash compactor, and trying to figure out what the blocks of crap were before it was all compacted. Whatever it was, something happened to it. But it's indistinguishable now... maybe sorta like recycling. Who knows.

 

 

Aside from that, why are you making assumptions (using the hasty generalization fallacy) about there being "other universes?"  As I've said before, "where there's one, there's more" isn't logically valid.  >.>

 

I never said it was logically valid, though. I said it's inductive reasoning. I'm not proving that there are multiple universes. I never said for sure that there are, and that's where you're getting stuck in a loop. I'm not going to point up in the sky and say "Look! There it is! Don't you see?"  No, it's not like that. My point is that I am (very) skeptical that there is only one universe. That's all.

 

I do believe space—or whatever is beyond that, more accurately—is finite. But I don't believe we'll ever find its end. Based on the data we've gathered, we've observed less than even 0.000001% of the entire universe. The whole universe, everything we've ever seen—yes, that includes even the big bang—is such a small portion of what really is out there. Actually, scientists estimate that an atom to the known universe is the same proportion as the known universe to the entire universe. Think about that.

 

The big bang happened ~13 billion years ago, but the best estimate for the size of the universe is ~93 billion light years in diameter. I'm not making this up. Because the universe is so young, we can only see that small portion of it. We can only see 13 billion light years in any given direction. That's our horizon, but it isn't the limit to what's really out there. The galaxies that are that far away from us are moving away from us at speeds faster than the speed of light (because relativity doesn't apply at such long distances, where it is actually space itself expanding).

 

By this reasoning, there are some things that exist, but we will never be able to observe. That might be other universes, but it might not be. Either way, the point still stands. There is more. More. More! Possibly finite, possibly not, but definitely more than you could ever possibly imagine.

Edited by Admiral Regulus
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I am nonreligious, though I've noticed before that you seem surprised to find that my beliefs really aren't that much different from yours.

 

Not surprising, just noteworthy. That being said, I'm just wondering why you post on a thread that asks why you are religious, when you specifically are not.

 

If a thread was called "why are you an atheist" should I post in that thread and explain why I'm not one?

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Because this is a... discussion forum... and discussion forums are meant for... discussion...?

 

Hell, I don't know. If I'm not welcome here then I'll leave, but I was enjoying myself while it lasted.

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Because this is a... discussion forum... and discussion forums are meant for... discussion...?

 

Hell, I don't know. If I'm not welcome here then I'll leave, but I was enjoying myself while it lasted.

"Since this is a discussion forum, I can DISCUSS politics wherever I want, including the Sean Rey thread."

I have many much logic farts as well, though.

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While I do believe that the Bible or any other religious scripture is most likely a crock of bullshit, that doesn't mean theories made by me or believing that no god exists is any better. The only way to truly find out the truth is to die, so I suppose that makes me agnostic.

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Why are you one? Are you comfortable knowing that once you die, it's over?

 

Atheism is simply a rejection of the statement: "There is a god that exists"..

 

It has no bearings on a persons spiritual beliefs other than that rejection itself....

 

For example its very possible for an atheist to believe in an afterlife..... I myself don't know, and really don't worry about it that much..... what matters most to me is what is happening now.

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Because this is a... discussion forum... and discussion forums are meant for... discussion...?

 

Hell, I don't know. If I'm not welcome here then I'll leave, but I was enjoying myself while it lasted.

 

I'm not trying to kick you out.

 

I'm just saying the OP made their intent clear. This thread is meant for explaining why those of us who are of faith to give reasons as to exactly why they are and choose to be.

 

As you said before, it's not in the debate pit so those of us here should have to defend our positions, there's other threads for that.

"Since this is a discussion forum, I can DISCUSS politics wherever I want, including the Sean Rey thread."

I have many much logic farts as well, though.

 

Okay, let's not be petty about this.

 

We're bronies, let's make a college try to be civil even at ends rope.

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Because this is a... discussion forum... and discussion forums are meant for... discussion...?

 

Hell, I don't know. If I'm not welcome here then I'll leave, but I was enjoying myself while it lasted.

You can stay. I've noticed your presence seems to make threads more interesting.

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I like to believe that there is life after death. In the end it personally helps me to live happier from day to day. Also, if I spend my whole life believing in a God and an afterlife and they end up not existing after all, well I won't exist anymore to regret having "wasted" time believing anyway. So the way I see it, I don't really have anything to lose by believing either.

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I'm not trying to kick you out.

 

I'm just saying the OP made their intent clear. This thread is meant for explaining why those of us who are of faith to give reasons as to exactly why they are and choose to be.

 

As you said before, it's not in the debate pit so those of us here should have to defend our positions, there's other threads for that.

 

To be fair, the topic asks why we aren't atheists. I originally came here to say that there wasn't any particular reason, because I am indeed nonreligious. I ended up going a little too far and started an argument, I know. Though as long as discussion is civil I personally see nothing wrong with it.

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Atheism is simply a rejection of the statement: "There is a god that exists"..

 

It has no bearings on a persons spiritual beliefs other than that rejection itself....

 

For example its very possible for an atheist to believe in an afterlife..... I myself don't know, and really don't worry about it that much..... what matters most to me is what is happening now.

 

That being said, many atheists do reject concepts of spirituality. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's not like there's no precedent for it.

 

To be fair, the topic asks why we aren't atheists. I originally came here to say that there wasn't any particular reason, because I am indeed nonreligious. I ended up going a little too far and started an argument, I know. Though as long as discussion is civil I personally see nothing wrong with it.

 

Well seeing as the OP has given their consent and didn't preclude discussion, neither do I. My initial address to you was merely asking why.

 

I admit, a part of me thought you were trying to be an agitator, "another religious thread? Time for me to take those guys down a peg!"

 

That was unfair or me to assume, I apologize.

Edited by Steel Accord
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Judaism has a scientific mindset.  It is disprovable.  If no Jews = no Judaism [it's not "just" a religion, it's a people].

 

For since its inception Jews have been threatened by greater forces, but for 3,000 years we've been around.  Toynbee called us a fossil, yet we got Israel back which would have him admit that we are a fossil reborn.

 

That's some pretty rigorous testing in my opinion.  But Judaism still exists, somehow. 

 

You may say that one of the only, if not the only religion which has universal message and individual people lasted this long, survived due to chance. 

 

I do not.  I say that it is a theory well tested.  And therefore God has failed to be disproved. 

 

Thus the Theory of God is an axiom, along with the rest of Judaism.

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Judaism has a scientific mindset.  It is disprovable.  If no Jews = no Judaism [it's not "just" a religion, it's a people].

 

For since its inception Jews have been threatened by greater forces, but for 3,000 years we've been around.  Toynbee called us a fossil, yet we got Israel back which would have him admit that we are a fossil reborn.

 

That's some pretty rigorous testing in my opinion.  But Judaism still exists, somehow. 

 

You may say that one of the only, if not the only religion which has universal message and individual people lasted this long, survived due to chance. 

 

I do not.  I say that it is a theory well tested.  And therefore God has failed to be disproved. 

 

Thus the Theory of God is an axiom, along with the rest of Judaism.

 

As a practicing Catholic, I agree with this.

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I never said it was logically valid, though. I said it's inductive reasoning. I'm not proving that there are multiple universes. I never said for sure that there are, and that's where you're getting stuck in a loop.  Except that I'm not XD I'm not going to point up in the sky and say "Look! There it is! Don't you see?"  No, it's not like that. My point is that I am (very) skeptical that there is only one universe. That's all.  Right, and for a reason that's not founded in traditional logic..

 

I do believe space—or whatever is beyond that, more accurately—is finite. But I don't believe we'll ever find its end Why is this relevant?. Based on the data we've gathered, we've observed less than even 0.000001% of the entire universe. The whole universe, everything we've ever seen—yes, that includes even the big bang—is such a small portion of what really is out there. Actually, scientists estimate that an atom to the known universe is the same proportion as the known universe to the entire universe. Think about that.  I call bullshit.  Find me the source for that and I will instantly debunk it.  Actually, you contradicted this later when you said that our line of sight was 13,000,000,000 light years but the "best" estimate for the size of the universe was 93,000,000,000 light years in diameter.  93,000,000,000 / 13,000,000,000  =  7.15...    I think the known universe  is more than 7X larger than an atom XD

 

The big bang happened ~13 billion years ago, but the best estimate for the size of the universe is ~93 billion light years in diameter. I'm not making this up. Because the universe is so young (I think you mean old?), we can only see that small portion of it. We can only see 13 billion light years in any given direction. That's our horizon, but it isn't the limit to what's really out there. The galaxies that are that far away from us are moving away from us at speeds faster than the speed of light (because relativity doesn't apply at such long distances, where it is actually space itself expanding).

 

By this reasoning, there are some things that exist, but we will never be able to observe.  Don't make another appeal to ignorance.  Just because you can't see it doesn't mean there's a good chance that it's there. That might be other universes, but it might not be.  *Sigh..  False equivilance../ Either way, the point still stands. There is more. More. More! Possibly finite, possibly not,  False equivalence again.  We have evidence for a finite universe.  We don't for an infinite universe.  but definitely more than you could ever possibly imagine.  Ahh yes, the equivocation fallacy.  Your "more" in "There is more" should apply strictly to things bound in our own Universe.  You make it sound like there are more universes.   The original "more" (based on your previous statement) was supposed to apply only to things in this universe, but you make it sound like it applies to other Universe.

 

You're trying to make it seem like you have an inductively strong argument for the existence of another universe, but everything you base this off of is just bad reasoning.  Don't make appeals to ignorance.  Just because we inhabit a universe at the moment doesn't mean there are more.

 

Not being salty or saying I won but I thought this picture was funny XD

post-6560-0-14868200-1429500135_thumb.jpg

Edited by John
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Interesting topic.

I'm neutral on the point. Not atheist, or theist, or agnostic, or gnostic, or anything else. Neutral. I abstain.

My reasons:

1. It has very little bearing on what I will do with my life.

2. None of the common religions I've encountered have influenced me any more than other philosophy

3. Because science and religion/atheism are (or at least, should be) completely independent

4. I've noticed that most debates on the subject get hopelessly theoretical, to the point where I wonder if they're debating a worldview or just the name of an event.

 

"Is there a God?"

As some philosophers might claim, the question is meaningless, or at least ill-defined.

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Judaism has a scientific mindset.  It is disprovable.  If no Jews = no Judaism [it's not "just" a religion, it's a people].

 

For since its inception Jews have been threatened by greater forces, but for 3,000 years we've been around.  Toynbee called us a fossil, yet we got Israel back which would have him admit that we are a fossil reborn.

 

That's some pretty rigorous testing in my opinion.  But Judaism still exists, somehow. 

 

You may say that one of the only, if not the only religion which has universal message and individual people lasted this long, survived due to chance. 

 

I do not.  I say that it is a theory well tested.  And therefore God has failed to be disproved. 

 

Thus the Theory of God is an axiom, along with the rest of Judaism.

 

Interesting.  I wish I could source this for discussions XD

 

I often like to mention how Hebrew prophecy has also held up fairly well.

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Judaism has a scientific mindset.  It is disprovable.  If no Jews = no Judaism [it's not "just" a religion, it's a people].

 

For since its inception Jews have been threatened by greater forces, but for 3,000 years we've been around.  Toynbee called us a fossil, yet we got Israel back which would have him admit that we are a fossil reborn.

 

That's some pretty rigorous testing in my opinion.  But Judaism still exists, somehow. 

 

You may say that one of the only, if not the only religion which has universal message and individual people lasted this long, survived due to chance. 

 

I do not.  I say that it is a theory well tested.  And therefore God has failed to be disproved. 

 

Thus the Theory of God is an axiom, along with the rest of Judaism.

As an agnostic Jew, I agree.

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Because well-being is a fragile thing, and it's so easy to be broken. Ridiculously easy. I thank only God for every day that it isn't broken for me, or for any of my incredibly large family.

 

You think God wants you to worry every single day? Maybe He wants you to become stronger. After all, God helps those who help themselves.

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