Sign in to follow this  
Faerie-StarV

Twilight Sparkle a Mary Sue?

Recommended Posts

Lately, on Deviantart I've seen Bronies complaining about Twilight Sparkle becoming an Alicorn and Princess at the same time and that they said that she's a 'Mary Sue'. 

 

How in the hell does that make her a 'Mary Sue'? :|

I've nearly watched all five seasons(I missed some episodes) and the first three seasons is that she barely shows signs of being a canon Mary Sue.

 

I don't think that some anti Twilicorn fans(not the sane ones and I'm fine if you don't like her) even knows what Mary Sue is, they just throw it at her without researching her. One Brony(I won't say the name) compares her to Bella Swan from Twilight Book series. :unamused:

The difference between those two is that Twilight has flaws while Bella has none. Twilight had to earn things and learn it the hard way while Bella barely does shit and everyone loves her for it despite that she treats her friends and family like shit and wants to leave them with Edward(she wanted to be a vampire so she won't age and become old and ugly, how shallow is that?) despite that her family is not abusive.

 

If Twilight was a Mary Sue, she would have become a Princess Alicorn on the very first episode without working her way up or that she would have learn a high level magic to defeat Trixie or that she would have gotten her crown back in Equestria Girls without going through all the trouble.

 

What do you guys think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is like, the millionth "Twilight is a Mary Sue" thread we've had now.

 

And now I don't think she's a Mary Sue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that it doesn't matter and that you shouldn't care.  I think that terms like "Mary Sue" and "out of character" are overused and obnoxious internet discussion terms that are conveniently relied upon to express an opinion while putting forth as little effort as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Badges

At least she isn't totally rainbowfied.

 

Anyways, she is just a bit overpowered, not exactly a Mary Sue, but still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is like, the millionth "Twilight is a Mary Sue" thread we've had now.

 

And now I don't think she's a Mary Sue

Sorry, wasn't aware since I'm new here. :(

I think that it doesn't matter and that you shouldn't care.  I think that terms like "Mary Sue" and "out of character" are overused and obnoxious internet discussion terms that are conveniently relied upon to express an opinion while putting forth as little effort as possible.

I agree but it's just that every time I talked about Twilight Sparkle or even draw her(at the other sites), I would get some of the anti fans of Twilicorn bitching about it and don't even know what Mary Sue is yet they have their own recolor Pony 'OC's are Mary Sues. >_> And too often, some of the other fans would join in without even knowing what it is.

At least she isn't totally rainbowfied.

 

Anyways, she is just a bit overpowered, not exactly a Mary Sue, but still.

^_^ Unless you can count the rainbow power but it was temporary(I wouldn't mind seeing it again besides showing it twice).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, wasn't aware since I'm new here. :(

I agree but it's just that every time I talked about Twilight Sparkle or even draw her(at the other sites), I would get some of the anti fans of Twilicorn bitching about it and don't even know what Mary Sue is yet they have their own recolor Pony 'OC's are Mary Sues. >_> And too often, some of the other fans would join in without even knowing what it is.

^_^ Unless you can count the rainbow power but it was temporary(I wouldn't mind seeing it again besides showing it twice).

Hmm, nope, not even Rainbow Powered Twilight doesn't have all rainbow colors (thank Celestia...wait...who created the rainbow power?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree but it's just that every time I talked about Twilight Sparkle or even draw her(at the other sites), I would get some of the anti fans of Twilicorn bitching about it and don't even know what Mary Sue is yet they have their own recolor Pony 'OC's are Mary Sues. >_> And too often, some of the other fans would join in without even knowing what it is.

Ignore them?  Particularly if what you say is accurate and they don't know what they're talking about.  I've been down the road of "must defend at all costs," but you're unlikely to change anyone's opinion in the process.  Which is all it is, by the way: An opinion.  Just because someone says Twilight is this or that doesn't make it objectively, irrefutably true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Badges

Ignore them?  Particularly if what you say is accurate and they don't know what they're talking about.  I've been down the road of "must defend at all costs," but you're unlikely to change anyone's opinion in the process.  Which is all it is, by the way: An opinion.  Just because someone says Twilight is this or that doesn't make it objectively, irrefutably true.

They stopped replying after I pointed out the reasons why she's not but their OC's are(one of them made their pony OC into an overpowered Unicorn Twilight recolor and made her related to Rarity and that she's an 'emo' but has some element of harmony or whatever it was), which caused them to get pissed off at me and then they block me. XD So they just did me a favor of 'ignoring' them.

 

I know I can't change their minds but I just don't like it when they throw it around without knowing what it is and that they're guilty of making their Mary Sue OC's. Hypocritical if you asked me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may be wrong, but I always thought Mary Sues were characters designed to have no character flaws..... Which She has more than a few even after her transformation.

 

Shes overly compulsive under stress.

She puts too much weight on petty crap very often

Shes OCD....

 

Therefore I cannot honestly say shes a Mary Sue...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They stopped replying after I pointed out the reasons why she's not but their OC's are(one of them made their pony OC into an overpowered Unicorn Twilight recolor and made her related to Rarity and that she's an 'emo' but has some element of harmony or whatever it was), which caused them to get pissed off at me and then they block me. XD So they just did me a favor of 'ignoring' them.

 

I know I can't change their minds but I just don't like it when they throw it around without knowing what it is and that they're guilty of making their Mary Sue OC's. Hypocritical if you asked me. 

If you're getting into comment scuffles at the likes of dA you could end up getting banned, and it's just not worth it.  People are going to think what they're going to think; allow them to be wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Badges

(edited)

People use this term so much it lost all meaning.

 

First of all, the term comes from a character that was supposed to be hated for being perfect and the term was supposed to be used for fanfiction because it's also related to self-insert characters and inexperienced writers that can't really make a balanced character and think that a good character needs to be able to do anything, can't ever look bad and all it's flaws are endearing (in a way that makes people like them more). Kinda like Luna. XD I'm kidding.

 

i think that flaws aren't a good way to decide wherever a character is a Mary Sue. But a Mary Sue never loses. When she loses, it was better that way and if she had won, all would be lost. That is the best way I can describe a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is kinda like a superhero, that loses sight because of a chemical spill, but manages to function even better because she now hears so well she's can map the environment by hearing, like sonar. Saying that Twilight is a Mary Sue is either hating on the character or trying to get reactions. Because Twilight can't do everything and the way things go wrong when she messes up is not endearing. when Twilight screws up, whole episodes are written about it AND SHE LEARNS FROM IT, instead of being excused.

 

Another thing common of Mary Sues is that people like them instantly, not because they're being friendly, but because the writer has no patience to develop a proper meeting and a relationship out of it. Mary Sues get dates at will or the date will change their mind later after learning how wrong they were to dislike Mary Sue.

 

Want a good example of a Mary Sue? Adam Sandler's character from Pixels.

EDIT: Or Gary Stu, since it's a male.

Edited by Metemponychosis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're getting into comment scuffles at the likes of dA you could end up getting banned, and it's just not worth it.  People are going to think what they're going to think; allow them to be wrong.

It wasn't on Deviantart, it was on a different site.

If you overdue the comment scuffles then yes, I could get banned. Or if I get around the block by making a new account to continue the argument but thankfully, I don't do that as I love that site too much(even though it has up's and downs like any other sites but it's better than Tumblr, which I won't even dare to do comment scuffle). If they tried to get around my block, then they're in deep shit.

 

But if was on Deviantart, they would mostly bitched at me then block me before I could defend myself so they just did me a big favor by 'ignoring' them(I block them back in case if they tried to unblock me to bitch at me more but they would never get a chance :3 ).

I may be wrong, but I always thought Mary Sues were characters designed to have no character flaws..... Which She has more than a few even after her transformation.

 

Shes overly compulsive under stress.

She puts too much weight on petty crap very often

Shes OCD....

 

Therefore I cannot honestly say shes a Mary Sue...

Your actually right about that. One of my DA acquaintance's is a writer and is good at creating characters and will help anyone to see if their characters are Mary Sue/Gary Stu's or not.

 

I agree since Twilight has a lot of flaws.

 

 

People use this term so much it lost all meaning.

 

First of all, the term comes from a character that was supposed to be hated for being perfect and the term was supposed to be used for fanfiction because it's also related to self-insert characters and inexperienced writers that can't really make a balanced character and think that a good character needs to be able to do anything, can't ever look bad and all it's flaws are endearing (in a way that makes people like them more). Kinda like Luna. XD I'm kidding.

 

i think that flaws aren't a good way to decide wherever a character is a Mary Sue. But a Mary Sue never loses. When she loses, it was better that way and if she had won, all would be lost. That is the best way I can describe a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is kinda like a superhero, that loses sight because of a chemical spill, but manages to function even better because she now hears so well she's can map the environment by hearing, like sonar. Saying that Twilight is a Mary Sue is either hating on the character or trying to get reactions. Because Twilight can't do everything and the way things go wrong when she messes up is not endearing. when Twilight screws up, whole episodes are written about it AND SHE LEARNS FROM IT, instead of being excused.

 

Another thing common of Mary Sues is that people like them instantly, not because they're being friendly, but because the writer has no patience to develop a proper meeting and a relationship out of it. Mary Sues get dates at will or the date will change their mind later after learning how wrong they were to dislike Mary Sue.

 

Want a good example of a Mary Sue? Adam Sandler's character from Pixels.

EDIT: Or Gary Stu, since it's a male.

Sadly, you are right. :\ This is not just happening to Twilight Sparkle but to any other characters from other fandoms, not just MLP. People just throw it around without researching or what it is and I had some accusing my Sonic fan character a 'Mary Sue' despite that she has flaws, not related to Sonic or any canon characters, not in love with them, and is not overpowered. I had to ask some of my DA friends if she is but they said she is not even close.

And sadly, some of them who go around calling any characters 'Mary Sues' are not even trolling but were actually serious. >_>

 

There are some of them who are trolling, which I just ignore after lurking around so I won't fall for their bait and just hide the comments on Deviantart. Of course, they are some who are serious and you would wish they were 'trolling'.

 

Adam Sandler's character from Pixels is a Gary Stu? I was going to see that movie but never got a chance and I've been told that it 'sucks'. Is the movie really that bad?

 

Sorry for going off topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Adam Sandler's character from Pixels is a Gary Stu? I was going to see that movie but never got a chance and I've been told that it 'sucks'. Is the movie really that bad?
Pixels is a bad... Bad... Movie. There are movies that just want to have fun. So they "don't care". Like Joel Schumacher's Batman and Robin. It's not a good movie, but it knows it's not a good movie and doesn't expect you to take it too seriously, so it just goes along for the ride. Like "Slice of Life" in MLP. It's stupid, but it knows just how much to expect from the audience to keep it funny, without breaking the threshold of becoming annoying.

 

Pixels wants you to take it seriously. It tries to be funny and show Sandler's character as the good guy that just wants to make a living but actually is mankind's last hope. The movie is so bad that it goes out of it's way to cater to what they think gamers like to the point of having a "imagine you here" kind of character that seems more like a mockery of what real people playing videogames are. It tries to show that it's savvy on "gaming culture" by throwing a few things here and there in addition to the main plot, but the writing is so bad and lazy that it tries to hammer in messages like "cheaters are losers" seriously.

 

Talking about MLP, the only character I can think that actually comes close to being a Mary Sue is Cadance. But that could be my bias speaking. Even then, saying that wouldn't really be true. MLP has a lot of characters that lack development, but it doesn't really have one that can be called a Mary Sue. Certainly not Twilight!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pixels is a bad... Bad... Movie. There are movies that just want to have fun. So they "don't care". Like Joel Schumacher's Batman and Robin. It's not a good movie, but it knows it's not a good movie and doesn't expect you to take it too seriously, so it just goes along for the ride. Like "Slice of Life" in MLP. It's stupid, but it knows just how much to expect from the audience to keep it funny, without breaking the threshold of becoming annoying.

 

Pixels wants you to take it seriously. It tries to be funny and show Sandler's character as the good guy that just wants to make a living but actually is mankind's last hope. The movie is so bad that it goes out of it's way to cater to what they think gamers like to the point of having a "imagine you here" kind of character that seems more like a mockery of what real people playing videogames are. It tries to show that it's savvy on "gaming culture" by throwing a few things here and there in addition to the main plot, but the writing is so bad and lazy that it tries to hammer in messages like "cheaters are losers" seriously.

 

Talking about MLP, the only character I can think that actually comes close to being a Mary Sue is Cadance. But that could be my bias speaking. Even then, saying that wouldn't really be true. MLP has a lot of characters that lack development, but it doesn't really have one that can be called a Mary Sue. Certainly not Twilight!

 

It was really that bad? XD Thank goodness I didn't see it and saved me $28 instead of wasting it.

Everyone was talking about how bad Pixels are so I guess I will take yours and everyone's word for it. :3

 

Some of them did mentioned about Cadence being a Mary Sue(when she first appeared) but I haven't study her character enough to form my own so I can't really say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Technically what a Mary Sue is is a character with no challenges. When any character is created you should ask yourself if the character has any challenges before actually creating the flaws. If they do have challenges then chances are they are flawed.

 

You can created the most overpowered special Oc ever and if that character actually has a challenge then they'd be considered a more legit character than a completely normal character with no challenges whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh goodie, another one of these threads

 

Anyways short answer is no.  

The thing with Twilight is that she is given writers preference, in that she is the only one who is active, doing the important thing in the show(ie the two-parter) for no real reason as to why she is the only one doing it.  We are told the rest of the Mane 6 are as important but they never seem to do anything of significance in many of the two-parters outside of being exposition dumps or batteries to the Element rainbow cannon.  So many people call Twilight a Mary Sue because she is the only character that seems to matter during the big events, that the other just can't compare to Twilight during these trials and so on and that is a bit of a disservice to the rest of the cast.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pixels wants you to take it seriously.

I don't think there's ever been a Happy Madison Sandler film that gave me that impression.  Okay, maybe "Click" came close with the "A Christmas Carol"-esque ending.  But "Pixels?"  Giant alien Pac-Man!  Giant alien Pac-Man.  That's the threat that Earth was facing.  Also: Kevin James as president.  Actually, I could have said just that last thing.  As far as I see it, none of the issues that Adam Sandler films have stem from their wanting to be taken seriously.

 

And for the people saying "Cadance"; she does have a flaw.  That flaw just happens to be Shining Armor. xD  He's also the "challenge she faces," for anyone that might argue from that angle.  I'm being mean, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Badges

Every main character of anything ever will sound like a Mary Sue if you describe them out of context. Being a main character tends to go hand in hand with improbable origin stories and unlikely accomplishments.

 

I think what really determines a Mary Sue is how other characters react to the Sue. If the character is treated like the center of the universe and characters are judged by how much they like or dislike the character, and seemingly have little else going on in their lives unconnected to the character, then the character is a Sue. If the character is exactly the same, but they're surrounded by people who don't treat them like God's gift to humanity, then they might not be a Sue. I really don't like the whole mindset of "This character has (insert character flaws here) so they aren't a Sue." mainly because it's very common for people to tack minor character flaws onto ridiculous characters to avoid criticism. Lots of Sues are awkward, clumsy, etc, for example.

 

Overall, I'd say Twilight isn't a Sue. She comes close to feeling like the center of the Pony-verse sometimes ( "My prodigious intelligence, immense magical talent, unique magical wings, swanky giant castle, and the fact that I was set apart by the Elements of Harmony as more special than all of my friends from the beginning REALLY doesn't make me more special than anybody else :). " ) but her friends are written well enough, and have enough going on that's unrelated to Twilight, to keep her from coming off this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

Hmm. A Mary Sue who brought chaos to an entire town by enchanting her doll, just to write a school report? I don't think so.

 

Yes, she's the show's main hero, and it's logical that she sometimes appears flawless. But she isn't. She worries too much, often overreacts, wants everything to be in order way too much etc. She sometimes gives up hope on both herself and her friends. She finds it hard to accept opinions that differ from her own. She's rather stubborn too. When she isn't willing to listen to her friends, she just doesn't. Instead, she just sits with her books and mumbles "Aha".

 

I was actually glad to see her becoming an alicorn princess the way she did, as it kind of came out as a logical conclusion for a Princess' prized pupil (Celestia could even be considered goddess, actually). No, I don't think that was rushed. It took three seasons. She did quite a lot throughout that time. Just as her friends. And I'm glad she decided to stay in Ponyville with them, and continue being the Princess of Friendship. She kept on her modesty and compulsive nature, and I don't actually think she changed at all. And I'm glad that's the case, I was a bit worried about her development after the Season 3 finale, though I loved it.

Edited by KikiTwilight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Badges

I've never seen Twilight as a Mary Sue. Just like every other pony, she has her flaws. I'm pretty sure in one episode she completely ignored Spike. Unless I'm wrong, Twilight does seem to be distracted a lot. She's been seen going too far to solve small problems, and has faced quite a few problems during the span of the series. No way is she a perfect character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think there's ever been a Happy Madison Sandler film that gave me that impression.  Okay, maybe "Click" came close with the "A Christmas Carol"-esque ending.  But "Pixels?"  Giant alien Pac-Man!  Giant alien Pac-Man.  That's the threat that Earth was facing.  Also: Kevin James as president.  Actually, I could have said just that last thing.  As far as I see it, none of the issues that Adam Sandler films have stem from their wanting to be taken seriously.

 

And for the people saying "Cadance"; she does have a flaw.  That flaw just happens to be Shining Armor. xD  He's also the "challenge she faces," for anyone that might argue from that angle.  I'm being mean, though.

The reason I think that about Pixels isn't in the plot nor in the casting. Well, the casting is part of the problem, but it's because of how it interacts with the plot. It's in the directing. And the Pac Man scene is an excellent example. When you're seeing a story unfold, you expect the characters to take it seriously. But the way a scene unfolds completely changes the tone in it, along with background music and dialogue. Think of the Mane Six dealing with the dragon in Dragonshy. Then think of the military dealing with the alien ships in Independence Day. Which one of those are you reminded of when you think of the Pac Man scene?

 

Hey! Don't you bad mouth Shining Armor! I identify with him! Now, joking aside... I think that Cadance needs some character development ASAP or she'll slip beyond the event horizon of Mary-Sueness. She went from "damsel in distress who everyone likes and happens to be related to important characters and is the keeper of the greater magic which saved all" (textbook Mary Sue); to "awesome older sister", "don't mess with me", "wise parental figure" and badass "my magic is awesome, bitch" in a few episodes. All of that with the personality of a Barbie doll and a weird crystal fetish.

 

Cadance and Shining Armor, to me, are the kind of character I like to call "put yourself here" character. They seem designed to be as bland as possible to fit anyone's personality, while being important enough that they can also serve the wish-fulfillment. Quirky enough to be interesting, but as bland as possible to fit anyone's personality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time she ever could have been considered a Mary Sue was in the fight against Tirek but she had the power of 3 other alicorns on top of her own abilities, so that explains that. Beyond that, there has not been anything about her being a Mary Sue. More powerful than her friends in magic? Well, yeah, but she pretty much always has been. 

 

Starlight Glimmer actually is a lot closer to one, but that is a different debate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never thought of her as a Mary sue. She has plenty of flaws, and even though she has tons of power, she's no expert as using it, and her spells has caused problems plenty of times. :P

 

 

I know a few people who hate her, but when I ask why, they don't seem to know for sure. Maybe they see some Mary sue thing going on, but I don't. *shrugs* I guess it just depends on the individual person's opinion. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She's not a Mary Sue, but she's definitely annoyingly overpowered (especially in the comics) and overall just too "super duper special." 

 

She gets nearly everything on the merit of simply being Twilight. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not after the recent characters of Starlight Glimmer and Radiant Hope. Twilight never had such an extremely favorable narrative that those two managed to pull off out of their plots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.