Are Chrysalis, Sombra and Tirek capable of good?

[TheMarkz0ne 962]

I am not a fan of the constant reformation stuff, I drew the line at Starlight Glimmer turning good for a half baked reason. I am content with Discord and Shimmer's redemptions since they're based on slow progression and logic. This is just a hypothetical question. This would mean, that if these three are capable of good, then Celestia, Luna, Twilight, Cadence, AJ, Rarity, Pinkie-Pie, Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy are capable of evil.

 

How does morality work in Equestria?

 

Pure Good vs Pure Evil?

Good and Evil are phases and everyone can change?

[Castle Bleck 19,166]

According to the comics, Sombra has actually reformed just like Discord, Tirek still has some kind of (very begrudging) affection for his family, and Chrysalis is a borderline Complete Monster.

Edited June 22, 2017 by A.V.

[Applefolf 147]

In my head, everyone in Equestria is capable of being good. Note how this doesn't include Chrysalis, as she says she's not from Equestria. 

Now using Chrysalis as the prime example, if everyone where she comes from is like her. then what is evil? What's defined as right and wrong is different depending on where you are, and where Chrysalis comes from it's more than likely to be the normal, good thing to do to feed off love (after all, it's just food to them).

Heck, we can even talk about Luna. She's an alicorn that ruled Equestria alongside her sister for years and years, in a way deemed as good. However she did not feel like anyone loved her and grew jealous of her sister, with that jealousy consuming her and turning her into Nightmare Moon. It is clear to see that she heavily regrets her actions, just as perhaps most other villains do.

Everyone is inherently good, it's just that some go down a different route to follow their version of what's good. For those such as Tirek though who only want to cause destruction, there is always a reason why they want to cause destruction.

[TheMarkz0ne 962]

According to the comics, Sombra has actually reformed just like Discord by now, Tirek still has some kind of (very begrudging) affection for his family, and Chrysalis is a borderline Complete Monster.

How is Tirek exempt from being a total monster? He has always been in it for himself. Chrysalis isn't well defined, but it's implied she looks out for her kind.

[cmarston1 5,951]

I hope not.

I am tired of villain reformations on this show.

[TheMarkz0ne 962]

I hope not.

I am tired of villain reformations on this show.

It's a hypothetical and philosophical question. The old gnostic belief is rational and holds up even today. They concluded that good and evil are states of being. Evil is the result of too much error in one's life or previous incarnations. Those errors lead to what is called evil. Like an illness you can hardly shake off. There is more to it than what I just said though.

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

I'd say probably, but not entirely sure. Even Tirek could potentially be capable of good, that doesn't mean he necessarily deserves another chance, with all the awful things he's done, nobody is required to forgive him, and it's likely they never would, and I doubt he would change, but it's possible.

 

 I think "Pure Evil" people are far and rare. Someone who is pure evil is someone who causes pain to others, without any regret or remorse, simply for their own enjoyment or gain, is unwilling to change, and has no capacity for reason and kindness what so ever. Most people, even the really bad ones, have some good in them, maybe if they had a different life, or some good friends, or a different situation, they could have been better people. Maybe in their own mind, they are doing the right thing. Maybe, if they want to, they can even change.

 

 That doesn't mean to always turn a blind eye, and I think at times the ponies are a bit too optimistic. Some people need to be locked up for others safety, and some need to be punished, but I think we take it too far in the other direction, a lot of people just aren't ever willing to forgive anything, we only see the negative things a person has done, and decide they are just "Bad", and that's all there is. A murderer really could, in other ways, be a good, kind, caring person. That doesn't mean we should set them free necessarily, but that doesn't negate the existence of "Goodness".

 

 Good people do bad things, bad people do good things. Sombra, Chrysalis and Tirek all could have goodness in them, and all of our mane Six could have some bad parts to them.

[Castle Bleck 19,166]

How is Tirek exempt from being a total monster? He has always been in it for himself.

 

Hence the "very begrudging" part.

 

And as myopically as he thinks, he's still clearly sore about Scorpan selling him out (even though Scorpan was perfectly justified due to trying to protect Equestria).

 

Chrysalis isn't well defined, but it's implied she looks out for her kind.

 

She's committed genocide time and time again, she's gleefully sadistic, and she once even threw one of her own minions into a volcano just because he made a mistake.

 

Basically:

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by A.V.

[thewookie5 11]

Because the comics I'd say Sombra could, since he's kinda reformed in the comics. His pseudo-girlfriend/wife/best friend Hope would be considered pretty evil as well but she seems hellbent on helping Sombra, world be damned. So if Sombra stays good she'd likely follow. I guess they can be a somewhat corrupted couple.

 

Tirek, I doubt at this point of his life; he may have at an earlier point in his life however. He did seem to care for his brother and his eventual "betrayal" seems to have been the final straw in his remaining morality.

 

Chrysalis does "good" but its a very loose term of good. She does try to take care of her subjects, but cares for them akin to that of Hitler, Stalin, Mao.... etc. Not to mention she seems to be a cold hearted sadist.   

[Snake 515]

Sombra is reformed in the comics, and I do not believe Chrysalis is evil, more like a chaotic neutral, as she's just looking out for her species. Even if she is a bit on the mean side. (Pretty mean)
As for Tirek, well, I do not think somebody like him will ever be good. Though, maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, since he seems very stuck on hating his brother, which is a sure sign he's not over it.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Snake

[Daring_Do 552]

I am not a fan of the constant reformation stuff, I drew the line at Starlight Glimmer turning good for a half baked reason. I am content with Discord and Shimmer's redemptions since they're based on slow progression and logic. This is just a hypothetical question. This would mean, that if these three are capable of good, then Celestia, Luna, Twilight, Cadence, AJ, Rarity, Pinkie-Pie, Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy are capable of evil.

 

How does morality work in Equestria?

 

Pure Good vs Pure Evil?

Good and Evil are phases and everyone can change?

Sombra was capable of good; He was after all a pony. He simply didn't realize he had a choice.

 

Tirek was malevolent and power-hungry. As a person, who can say? Perhaps he was irredeemable, but not inherently evil.

 

Chrysalis, however, is a being of pure malice and venom, a monster. There can be no redemption for her or her ilk, for her very existence is a tainted one, and her heart black as midnight.

[ManaMinori 4,143]

Sombra was capable of good; He was after all a pony. He simply didn't realize he had a choice.

 

Tirek was malevolent and power-hungry. As a person, who can say? Perhaps he was irredeemable, but not inherently evil.

 

Chrysalis, however, is a being of pure malice and venom, a monster. There can be no redemption for her or her ilk, for her very existence is a tainted one, and her heart black as midnight.

chryssi doesn't need redeeming

She was trying to feed her starving army of children the only way she knew how. What's evil about that?

[Daring_Do 552]

chryssi doesn't need redeeming

She was trying to feed her starving army of children the only way she knew how. What's evil about that?

And what of the Vampyre of old? An unholy thing, existing in the space between life and death but embracing neither. The lifeblood of the living is all it needs - nay, *demands* - to continue sustaining its unnatural existence. Would you plead its case?

[TheMarkz0ne 962]

Sombra was capable of good; He was after all a pony. He simply didn't realize he had a choice.

 

Tirek was malevolent and power-hungry. As a person, who can say? Perhaps he was irredeemable, but not inherently evil.

 

Chrysalis, however, is a being of pure malice and venom, a monster. There can be no redemption for her or her ilk, for her very existence is a tainted one, and her heart black as midnight.

Tirek showed no remorse for little fillies. Regret for his brother Scorpan? In the comics yes, but it's not entirely proved. You think Chrysalis would spare fillies? I know in the comics she was being comical with the CMC. But I feel in the show she would brainwash ponies from birth to serve changelings. 

[Fluttercordxx 12]

I hope that Sombra and Chrysalis are redeemed, but not Tirek. After all, we saw them capable of being good, unlike Tirek. 

[SBaby 660]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 7:00 PM, TheMarkz0ne said:

I know in the comics she was being comical with the CMC.

She wasn't being comical with the CMC in the comics.  She was being creepy on a scale that probably wouldn't be allowed in the cartoon itself (literally killing kittens in front of them by splattering them against the wall). 

So as for the show, she might be redeemable.  But narratively speaking, there are much more interesting things she could do as an antagonist.  The least of which is to research the ponies and maybe disguise herself as Applejack's mother to get her to do something for her (there are many ways this could be made to work, and I've seen plotlines like this in superhero comics and other shows).  The realization of what she did after the fact could also be great character development for Applejack.  Plus it would show that even without as many troops as she once had, Chrysalis is still a genuine force to be reckoned with.

Edited June 19, 2017 by SBaby

[Thrond 3,257]

Whether they are "capable of" good is a very philosophical argument. Personally, I think anyone is capable of good, and anyone is capable of evil, and this is seemingly the basis of My Little Pony's morality. Those three villains are evil because they choose to be evil, but if they chose to be good, they could easily be good. It's hard to see any of them renouncing their sinister ways, as all they were either driven by greed (Sombra, Tirek) or narcissism (Chrysalis), but they all might have done good things had events lined up differently.

If anything, the reverse is even more true. While "evil" would be stretching it, we've actually seen most, if not all, of the main six act in irresponsible, even selfish ways which have hurt other ponies. I mean, consider "Lesson Zero," for example, where Twilight is a direct threat to the safety of Ponyville. It's also implied that Luna is partially responsible for Nightmare Moon coming to be, so there's that as well. 

Considering the demographic, MLP has an admirably nuanced view of morality, where people do bad things for what they think are good reasons all the time. That is, I think, more realistic and empathetic than any sort of simple good/evil divide, and I find the show's idealistic trend of giving jerks a second chance to add to the show's cheerful tone. Plus, saying that people can change with a little help is far from a bad message in my book. The world needs more forgiveness and empathy. 

[StormBlaze 991]

I like to think that there are just evil entities in Equestria, as so to keep the balance - ying yanga nd all that.

Tirek is almost other worldly, so I expect him to be an evil demon type creature anyway. BUT Scorpan his brother, was swayed by ponies, and Tirek seemed close to his brother before then too, so maybe there is a glimmer of good, but I dont see him as being able to reform. They locked him in Tartarus. 

Chryssi, well we now know changelings can be good, but I think she enjoys the evil life more. The comics dont count as a lot of her signs of good are for comedic value. She wont turn good of her free will. Even when they caught her, she only let them close enough to explain herself, but there was no hint of her wanting to change. 

Sombra................oh god how I hate his GOOD version in the alt universe comic arc. I do however prefer the main arc where he is more so posessed by the shadow/umba magic. But his demenior in the show, even though it was a tiny amount of screen time, I dont think that version of Sombra would be easy to reform. They will need a hell of a lot of powerful magic to change him.... like if the mane 6 were all Alicorns with the elements and rainbow power levels of power. I would very much like to see Sombra come back. 

[Hierok 11,829]

4 hours ago, StormBlaze said:

Sombra................oh god how I hate his GOOD version in the alt universe comic arc. I do however prefer the main arc where he is more so posessed by the shadow/umba magic. But his demenior in the show, even though it was a tiny amount of screen time, I dont think that version of Sombra would be easy to reform. They will need a hell of a lot of powerful magic to change him.... like if the mane 6 were all Alicorns with the elements and rainbow power levels of power. I would very much like to see Sombra come back. 

I hope he comes back as his old evil self. The comics were not that bad, because I really liked how the storie was portrait. The only thing wrong with it is the good ending. I prefer an ending like this.

Radiant Hope confinces Sombra to leaf their plans and he is willing to be good, but the only solution to stop the Umbrum is with a sacrifice, so he sacrifices himself to lock the Umbrum World and he is trapped in the door. Hope will search for Princess Amore, because she is the only one who can free Sombra, cause she set the curse to lock the Umbrum.

[Castle Bleck 19,166]

On 3/26/2016 at 6:50 PM, thewookie5 said:

His pseudo-girlfriend/wife/best friend Hope would be considered pretty evil as well but she seems hellbent on helping Sombra, world be damned.

 

Naive, not evil.

 

On 6/20/2017 at 9:03 AM, Hierok said:

The comics were not that bad, because I really liked how the storie was portrait. The only thing wrong with it is the good ending. I prefer an ending like this.

Radiant Hope confinces Sombra to leaf their plans and he is willing to be good, but the only solution to stop the Umbrum is with a sacrifice, so he sacrifices himself to lock the Umbrum World and he is trapped in the door. Hope will search for Princess Amore, because she is the only one who can free Sombra, cause she set the curse to lock the Umbrum.

 

Personally, I was sure they were going to go for a "Tippi and Count Bleck"-style ending (where they both sacrifice themselves, but the epilogue implies they survive -- dat ambiguity, tho).

Edited June 22, 2017 by A.V.

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

Everything is capable of good, if applied in a net positive manner. Whether or not they will BE good, is an entirely different question. But yes to that too, just depends on what struggles they go through teaching them friendshirp es gud.

[Hierok 11,829]

44 minutes ago, CuriUndersXeno said:

Everything is capable of good, if applied in a net positive manner. Whether or not they will BE good, is an entirely different question. But yes to that too, just depends on what struggles they go through teaching them friendshirp es gud.

Philosopher Hierok:

Is there good or bad, or is it just an illusion and are we all just running down the stream to the end of our days? Is life nothing more than the endless search for a cutie mark? And what is a cutie mark but a constant reminder that we're all only one attack away from oblivion? And what of the poor gator, flank forever blank, destined to an existential swim down the river of life to an unknowable destiny? 

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

3 hours ago, Hierok said:

Philosopher Hierok:

Is there good or bad, or is it just an illusion and are we all just running down the stream to the end of our days? Is life nothing more than the endless search for a cutie mark? And what is a cutie mark but a constant reminder that we're all only one attack away from oblivion? And what of the poor gator, flank forever blank, destined to an existential swim down the river of life to an unknowable destiny? 

Good and bad are subjective. Oh I see the reference lol. To explain more tho, good and bad can be objectively true when applied to a subjective position. Like, if we are pro-life, a very basic parameter just imagine AI deciding how to improve quantities of humans, then there are objectively superior methods to apply such a goal. Is it moral? That's subjective on circumstance, like is overpopulation or underpopulation a thing? That's just one example. Because quality of life also matters not just quantity of life. But, for an alien that likes visiting planets without life on them, then they would say we are a bad thing lol. So it'd objectively be true that we are bad for sight-seeing aliens, like, pollen could demolish their lungs maybe. Therefore we can apply objectivity to subjectivity. So any moral thing doesn't matter, it matters what is ethical, because ethics care about and acknowledge consequences rather than just doing something because its right because my culture said so. That doesn't always cause good to happen when using morals and sometimes morality is used to justify misbehavior to 'immorals'. So its all about ethics and empirical data.

 

Now to answer Gummy lol. Why search for a cutie mark when you don't need one? *ponies far and wide gasp*. Hm cutie marks signify that you are closer to death than you were before? Well, same could be said about anything happening at all, unless he means now they are stuck in their place due to cutie marks unable to move, sorta like slaves to the cutie marks, and wild monsters may take their lives at any time due to their inability to be flexible. But theres no rule saying your cutie mark cannot be that kind of flexibility and its sorta true of sedentary societies in general rather than just cutie marks.

Oh you know your destiny gummy, to be by Pinkie Pie til she might die or might be immortal cuz of the elements and you slowly slowly slowly get bigger kinda like Spike, and then sure I mean  equestria is totally random, villains n elements of harmony etc. But no-pony really dies, except maybe that mail-pony whom gave Discord his letter to the gala that one time. But if you knew your destiny anyways, it'd be even more boring, like imagine you know your entire future no matter how you swivel which direction it goes you always know where it stops. Life would not have any surprises, and surprises can be good or bad, but they teach you how to be more flexible.

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 8:43 AM, TheMarkz0ne said:

I am not a fan of the constant reformation stuff, I drew the line at Starlight Glimmer turning good for a half baked reason.

Studies do show that kids with social problems early in life get prefrontal cortex problems later in life (decision making and identity). Like serial killers (think Tirek I guess as close as we get) were abused early in life. And with parents that never correct an issue with their kid, that id can grow up poorly. Like, mass shooters tend to be narcissists with superiority complexes and feel entitled and its enabled from their parents. They grow up without criticism, then when it happens they feel like its the world's fault not their own. It is hard to reconcile reality, like culture shock if you will, if your parents raise you a specific way rather than a flexible way.

So with Starlight um, it makes sense she has more problems because her issues started younger, and they had to wrap up the end quick because the episode was super stuffed, but they needed a resolution. So they skipped a planned scene because it would've taken too long to explain properly. Which means theres information that has been left out in regards to that. Like how her parents behaved, or her community for how it helped her to develop into who she was.

Like, she is very gifted, who are they to correct her? She might not have gotten any criticism, and just naturally developed a kind of 'I can do anything' attitude combined with 'I should do x y and z because a b and c'. She is just skipping out all that because to her it might not be relevant, which is why she ended up messing more stuff up in the future and doesn't get others at times. Because only the root issue was addressed not the rest of it.

[Castle Bleck 19,166]

17 hours ago, CuriUndersXeno said:

Studies do show that kids with social problems early in life get prefrontal cortex problems later in life (decision making and identity). Like serial killers (think Tirek I guess as close as we get) were abused early in life. And with parents that never correct an issue with their kid, that id can grow up poorly. Like, mass shooters tend to be narcissists with superiority complexes and feel entitled and its enabled from their parents. They grow up without criticism, then when it happens they feel like its the world's fault not their own. It is hard to reconcile reality, like culture shock if you will, if your parents raise you a specific way rather than a flexible way.

 

*Reads FIENDship #2.*

 

Yeah, how dare Vorak and Haydon be... surprisingly reasonable and underrated parents?

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

1 hour ago, A.V. said:

 

*Reads FIENDship #2.*

 

Yeah, how dare Vorak and Haydon be... surprisingly reasonable and underrated parents?

*reads some* Oh. Well Tirek did have influences ideologically I suppose. So equestria doesn't know a real serial killer I guess. It would be a bit dark to present such a messed up psychology tho. But can ideology really be such a driving influence? I guess, it does drive alot of the real world problems. Serial killers, despite doing more individual killing, actually have far less force behind them. Thanks for the reply.