Widdershins 9,955 September 20, 2016 Share September 20, 2016 I like to think I have a sort of special talent when it comes to character creation. But before I start rapid firing off OCs, there's one habit I seem to make frequently that has me wondering. I've heard many a complaint over characters that are too overpowered or too perfect, that some flaws are good, but can this be taken too far the other direction too? If a character is too incompetent, helpless or otherwise ruins pretty much everything they become involved in does that come to grate on the audience after a while? For example, there's Troubleshoes, Silverquill's OC Clutterstep and, dare I mention it, Ditzy-Doo "Muffin" Hooves. That is one major complaint I heard of Troubleshoes's episode is that focusing too much on his clumsiness made the humor & focus of the episode seem a bit too mean-spirited. Not to mention the whole debacle over "Derpy's" perceived offensiveness. Where's the line between an adorable oaf & an open threat to their society & a drag on the story? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missklang 1,052 September 20, 2016 Share September 20, 2016 I think, as a Marry Sue is just a "perfect" and "op" alicorn with no personality, the opposite would be a simple earth pony OC with not particularly interesting skills or talent, but with an AMAZING personality, well-written backstory, very detailed. So well written, that it feels that it's a real person. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazard Time 1,127 September 20, 2016 Share September 20, 2016 I've heard of an anti-Mary Sue, but they are unlike what @Missklang described. Instead of being a well-developed character, they are still under-developed. The difference between a Mary Sue and an anti-Mary Sue is that while the former has many different traits that render them unchallenged by anything, the latter describes a character with no definable traits. Whereas the Mary Sue provides every conclusion, an anti provides nothing of importance and simply lets the plot carry them to wherever they are wanted, a bit like a dead fish in a stream. In other words, remove a Mary Sue from a story, and there's nothing left; remove an anti from a story, however, and absolutely nothing will change. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denim&Venöm 16,451 September 21, 2016 Share September 21, 2016 My guess would be a character with too many flaws, who's hated, mistreated, miserable and misanthropic just for the sake of the story. A way for the writer to project their own flaws, insecurities, frustrations and angst onto a character while attempting to gain sympathy from the audience. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnylvr 185 September 21, 2016 Share September 21, 2016 I'm going to say that one opposite would be the Butt Monkey http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButtMonkey A Mary Sue is beloved by the writer. A Butt Monkey is hated. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Duderino 878 September 21, 2016 Share September 21, 2016 Mary sue characters are basically characters that are too perfect. However, I also think that characters with too many flaws are also mary sue. They are certainly treated that way. I think the opposite of a mary sue would be a balanced, well thought out character. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan 3,254 September 21, 2016 Share September 21, 2016 I'd call them, Aaron Burr They talk less smile more and don't let others know what they're against or what they're for,leading to RPs where others don't really have much meaningful interactions with them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widdershins 9,955 October 30, 2016 Author Share October 30, 2016 So, since we're on the topic, it seems like, of edges... A follow-up, semi-related question to boot! Is it considered Edgy if I'm making my character into essentially Deadpool? Though granted, I am doing this despite not having any direct contact with anything Deadpool related. Which somehow seems very in-spirit for Deadpooling. Basically! I'm aiming for as inane as possible! More on the psychopath half then the homicidal part! Insufferable, but not mean or deadly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivkaBobble 110 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 (edited) Eus Yram! I'm just kidding, but to me a Mary Sue is a character that: - Is unstoppable - Is OP - Is completely perfect - Nothing can beat them - They do not develop, because they simply CAN'T -They can do ANYTHING So, 'Eus Yram' would be the opposite of that :3 So, since we're on the topic, it seems like, of edges... A follow-up, semi-related question to boot! Is it considered Edgy if I'm making my character into essentially Deadpool? Though granted, I am doing this despite not having any direct contact with anything Deadpool related. Which somehow seems very in-spirit for Deadpooling. Basically! I'm aiming for as inane as possible! More on the psychopath half then the homicidal part! Insufferable, but not mean or deadly! I don't think so. It's your OC after all! Edited October 31, 2016 by RivkaBobble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaburoDaimando 1,196 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 What about an extremely underpowered Alicorn colt, who can't fly, can't use magic, is physically weak, and is tormented by his peers for being a "Pathetic Excuse for an Alicorn?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazard Time 1,127 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 (edited) So, since we're on the topic, it seems like, of edges... A follow-up, semi-related question to boot! Is it considered Edgy if I'm making my character into essentially Deadpool? Though granted, I am doing this despite not having any direct contact with anything Deadpool related. Which somehow seems very in-spirit for Deadpooling. Basically! I'm aiming for as inane as possible! More on the psychopath half then the homicidal part! Insufferable, but not mean or deadly! Sociopathic characters are pretty edgy, to answer your question, but that isn't always a bad thing. A character can be edgy and STILL be interesting, like Batman. Problems arise when you have an edgy character whose most prominent trait is that they shoot a gun/swing a sword and the world doesn't understand them. Make your character more than one note, and they'll guaranteed be interesting. What about an extremely underpowered Alicorn colt, who can't fly, can't use magic, is physically weak, and is tormented by his peers for being a "Pathetic Excuse for an Alicorn?" That falls into my own definition of an anti-Mary Sue: A character with no personality traits who, even if they're the protagonist, could be written out of the story and the outcome wouldn't change at all. There might be more to him than that, but with as much information as you've given me, he doesn't sound interesting in the slightest. Edited October 31, 2016 by Hazard Time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaburoDaimando 1,196 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 (edited) That falls into my own definition of an anti-Mary Sue: A character with no personality traits who, even if they're the protagonist, could be written out of the story and the outcome wouldn't change at all. There might be more to him than that, but with as much information as you've given me, he doesn't sound interesting in the slightest. Or what about how said weak Alicorn colt would ether help a) Deal with his weakness and turn it into a strength with help from Twilight and friends, or Discovers that he does have those powers, it's just that he was too afraid to even use them out of fear of being ostracized even further. Edited October 31, 2016 by SaburoDaimando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazard Time 1,127 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 Or what about how said weak Alicorn colt would ether help a) Deal with his weakness and turn it into a strength with help from Twilight and friends, or Discovers that he does have those powers, it's just that he was too afraid to even use them out of fear of being ostracized even further. In the case of the first option, that sounds halfway interesting! I personally have a pegasus OC who's completely incapable of using or being affected by magic: she can easily shrug off a fireball with barely a hair out of place, but she can't fly, walk on clouds, or be healed by magical means. The second option doesn't make sense. If you're a literal god, why would other people bully you harder if you were more than capable of ripping them limb from limb? The worst I can imagine coming of this is the other ponies avoid him out of fear, but what's more likely to happen is that he'd be the most popular foal in school. There's no reason for him NOT to hide his powers. However, this is completely ignoring the politics of being an alicorn, and I won't go into that as this discussion has been derailed enough already. Feel free to hit me up if you want to discuss this further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeal Crown 194 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 The opposite of a Mary Sue? A good character. Sorry, but there's not much more to that. At least in my opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weesh 690 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 (edited) I really don't think mary sues have a clear opposite. it is such a specifically bad thing, that is the culmination of many bad character mistakes, that there is just too much space in the opposite. if mary sue JUST meant overpowered, an opposite could be useless. but mary sue also means a lot of things that don't really have clear opposites... self-insert love interest of a canon character story revolves around her if you take away the mistakes, you are left with a possibly reasonable character...that you could still have made other mistakes with. we're not looking for the opposite of something clear, like an introvert. we're looking somehow for the opposite of super specific writing mistakes. It's not easy to imagine what that means. The opposite of a Mary Sue? A good character. Sorry, but there's not much more to that. At least in my opinion. Actually, i like this answer. its's not satisfying as much as I find it funny, and attacks the heart of the problem. you can see it as "if mary sue has all the worst writing mistakes, then the opposite would be to NOT have those." Unfortunately it isn't enough to just avoid mistakes to have a compelling character. you could easily avoid the mary sue problem, and still end up with shit. Edited October 31, 2016 by weesh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeal Crown 194 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 After reading all the responses of this thread, I think it's safe to say that it really doesn't matter what the opposite is, unless you are trying really hard to make an opposite. (for some reason) Of course, the opposite of an overpowered and nothing-wrong character would probably be a weak and easily beat up character, or a bland, boring, nothing character. What's important for creating characters isn't creating a non-Mary Sue character, but, like I said, a good character. If your goal is to create an opposite to a Mary Sue, you're creating characters wrong. It's easy to avoid a non-Mary Sue, but you can't just create an opposite. Though if your question was I've heard many a complaint over characters that are too overpowered or too perfect, that some flaws are good, but can this be taken too far the other direction too? If a character is too incompetent, helpless or otherwise ruins pretty much everything they become involved in does that come to grate on the audience after a while? then yes, it can be taken too far, and yes, it does grate on the audience. No one wants to root for a boring and nothing character. But like I said, as long as you're not creating a character who is an opposite of a Mary Sue, then you shouldn't have to worry about this. Though the bit about Deadpool, I wouldn't be able to say. I'm not all too sure what his character is like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hastur 505 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 Imagine a character that is the most powerful human on the planet. But only uses his power for superficial things like getting weed or girls or something. That's the end product of a character from my own fictional universe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeal Crown 194 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 Imagine a character that is the most powerful human on the planet. But only uses his power for superficial things like getting weed or girls or something. That's the end product of a character from my own fictional universe Firstly, the fact that your character still is the most powerful human on the planet is still leaning towards Mary Sue. Him not using his powers doesn't take away the fact that he still has said powers. And secondly, if you're looking for character critique (even pertaining to Mary Sues) this isn't the thread for it. Though I'll compliment you on the concept, just tweak it a bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,298 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 You decide where the line is; not the fandom. All it really boils down to is your opinion versus theirs; their personal preference versus what qualities you've decided to bestow upon your character. There's an obsession within this community with the term and concept of "Mary Sue," and, so far as obsessions go, it's a pretty boring one. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the complaints lobbed towards alleged Mary Sue-like OCs are hurled by people sharing the same RP environment. "Your OC is too good at doing things! Your OC should be as inept, flawed, and relatively unhelpful [where conflict resolution is concerned] as mine is!" Don't overthink this sort of thing. And I'd recommend against listening to people whose fundamental idea of a "good" character is a non-Mary Sue. Besides: Outside of OC creation, the story is the most vital character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganondorf8 11,118 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 I'd like to think that the opposite of a Mary Sue type character would be one who was absolutely no good at anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widdershins 9,955 October 31, 2016 Author Share October 31, 2016 The second option doesn't make sense. If you're a literal god, why would other people bully you harder if you were more than capable of ripping them limb from limb? The worst I can imagine coming of this is the other ponies avoid him out of fear, but what's more likely to happen is that he'd be the most popular foal in school. There's no reason for him NOT to hide his powers. Well, take Celestia for example. Admittedly, she rather is quite a Mary Sue in her own way. The only times she does fail is so it can advance the drama of the denouement & give Twilight something more to do. But that same infallibility is just as much of a curse too. What'll happen if you win that game of Canasta against the leader of the free world, eh? I headcannon that poor Tia hasn't had a date in several decades because who'd have enough gall to go on a blind date with a god? Not to mention the shady stallions that might have their ambitions in the wrong place. Suppose the old adage is true, a good writer can make anything work. I'm thinking that the opposite of a mary sue would be someone who can't do anything right. A character who screws up so bad it beggars your belief that anyone could be that dumb unless they were trying to forward the story. The sort to cast a spell over the whole of Ponyville, effectively ruin everypony's day and all because he just thought it would be fun or its what he thought you asked him to do. But my question still stands. Where's the point where you go too far off the other end & make your character not just oafish, but hateful? Like how PonyLiver mentioned the term Butt Monkey. That whiny dolt of a side character in some anime that lets the violent criminal go because it offered him candy, or for a better example that one time Pinkie Pie got all up in Fluttershy's face about her social insecurities. Fandom was in agreement that was far too harsh, But still somehow entirely in her character to be that indirectly inconsiderate. And that's exactly how Widder would. He's stolen the leg out from under a blind-drunk gryphon, not out of hatred but because he didn't think twice how that might incite a burning hatred of him. He would just as likely burn your house down, because he thought at the time, that cleaning and reducing it all to ash amounted to the same ends. Phenomenal cosmic power! Itty-bitty Brain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hastur 505 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 Firstly, the fact that your character still is the most powerful human on the planet is still leaning towards Mary Sue. Him not using his powers doesn't take away the fact that he still has said powers. And secondly, if you're looking for character critique (even pertaining to Mary Sues) this isn't the thread for it. Though I'll compliment you on the concept, just tweak it a bit. Thank you, I was trying to propose that as an Anti-Sue(I like the ring to that) Anyway, to me, an anti-sue(I'm keeping that term, dammit!) Would be someone that isn't a big deal; but, still keeps that feeling of an interesting character. Someone that is all-powerful shouldn't be the main character. Something with that amount of power should only be used to strike awe/fear and/or guide the main character -that is assuming it should be used at all- I can't think of any good examples at the moment but you probably get the point, right, my reader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmeraldStar04 250 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 Everyone here saying "An anti-sue would be a well-written powerless character" is showing off how little they know about writing or sues. An Anti-Sue: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiSue Yes, it annoys me when clumsy powerless idiotic pieces of garbage are thrown around like their ability to fail at everything is comedic genius. Failure isn't funny, it's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widdershins 9,955 October 31, 2016 Author Share October 31, 2016 Yes, it annoys me when clumsy powerless idiotic pieces of garbage are thrown around like their ability to fail at everything is comedic genius. Failure isn't funny, it's sad. Well, there's the sad clown shtick. What, like the Marx brothers or the Three Stooges, they work because you're there to watch the reactions of the "normal" people around them to the chaos they stir up. Then again, that does suit Troubleshoes to a tee... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmeraldStar04 250 October 31, 2016 Share October 31, 2016 Well, there's the sad clown shtick. What, like the Marx brothers or the Three Stooges, they work because you're there to watch the reactions of the "normal" people around them to the chaos they stir up. Then again, that does suit Troubleshoes to a tee... Don't compare the comedic genius of the three stooges to "hurr durr he failed at everything lol". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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