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The nature of Twilight and Starlight's relationship


Cleverclover

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At this point, Starlight is pretty much Twilight's new best friend, and they've had plenty of interaction all season. However, certain aspects of their relationship have become more and more apparent throughout the season.

 

In short, I think that the biggest thing that Starlight does for Twilight is stroke her ego, and make her feel better about herself. 

 

I think when Twilight made the decision to take her on as a student, she did it for two reasons. One was for Starlight's sake, and the other was for her own. Twilight was presented with the challenge of taking a complete sociopath and turning her into a good, productive pony. Accomplishing a feat like this would have certainly proven how valuable she is as the Princess of Friendship, and it also would have impressed Celestia as well.  

 

Ultimately, however, I think that her desire to prove herself has outweighed any desire to see Starlight's growth in friendship. 

 

For starters, by No Second Prances, it's revealed that Starlight has already earned Twilight's full and unwavering trust. Clearly, this trust extends to the point where Starlight can ignore Twilight's direct orders without receiving any repercussion over it, as is shown when Starlight uses magic to set the table after Twilight stated to do it "without magic", and then just lets it slide. I think that scene was very telling. 

 

When Trixie enters the picture, Twilight panics because she knows that for the very first time, she'll be presenting her progress with Starlight to Celestia, and she obviously wants it to go as well as it possibly can. Twilight sees Trixie as a potential threat to the effort she has already put in to change Starlight's ways, and desperately attempts to break them apart, mostly concerned that Celestia will be unimpressed if Twilight presents to her anything less than a model student. Her panic explodes to the point where she grabs three people off the street (Derpy, DJ Pon-3, and Cranky) and attempts to pass them off to Celestia as Starlight's friends, despite the fact that Starlight barely knows any of them. 

 

What this clearly indicates is that Twilight is not willing to even entertain the notion that her endeavor to change Starlight's ways is being handled with anything less than complete perfection. And we see this in Every Little Thing She Does as well. 

 

After Twilight confronts Starlight for her actions in that episode, the first thing she does is almost compliment her for how powerful the spell was. There was something very off about that to me, especially with the way she proudly states that her friends "are going to feel that in the morning." She doesn't seem even slightly upset with the fact that Starlight cast the spell at all, instead she feels the need to set the tone by subtly complimenting her for her magical prowess. 

 

You know why? Because in that moment, it was the only thing she could possibly cling to in order to make light of the situation. The fact that Starlight used the spell at all certainly seems to imply that she's not as right in the head as she appears to be, yet Twilight seems to go out of her way not to acknowledge it, even when Starlight clearly displays that doesn't understand that casting the spell in the first place was wrong. Perhaps she sympathizes with her for making a similar mistake once, but overall, it seems to me that Twilight simply cannot accept that Starlight probably needs more mental help than she lets on, and that's why she makes light of the situation and does not punish her in any way for it. It's why she's only "disappointed" in her and not actually mad, despite the fact that the ponies Starlight mind controlled were her closest friends. 

 

If she were to punish Starlight in any way, it would be an admission that her efforts have failed to some degree. And of course, she cannot accept that either. 

 

So yes, I think that having Starlight as a friend makes Twilight feel proud of herself for the fact that she had managed to turn her around. I do not believe that there's anything Starlight can do that Twilight simply won't shove under the rug, no social boundaries she can break that Twilight won't simply shrug off. It certainly does seem like Twilight will put Starlight before the rest of the mane five, and that's what I find particularly troubling. 

 

Thoughts? 

Edited by Cleverclover
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For starters, by No Second Prances, it's revealed that Starlight has already earned Twilight's full and unwavering trust.
 

 

 If Starlight had her full and unwavering trust, why wasn't Twilight willing to give her the chance to pick her own friend in Trixie? Yes, Twilight's distrust is more obviously aimed at Trixie than it is at Starlight, but if somebody had my full and complete trust, then I wouldn't doubt their decisions so easily.

 

 

 

Clearly, this trust extends to the point where Starlight can ignore Twilight's direct orders without receiving any repercussion over it, as is shown when Starlight uses magic to set the table after Twilight stated to do it "without magic", and then just lets it slide. I think that scene was very telling.

 

 

What's the point of repercussions here? Punishing her for setting the table wrong, even if she planned to work some kind of lesson about how sharp knives were into it seems kind of pointless, it's not going to help Starlight learn a lesson, it'll probably just make Starlight feel bad.

 

 Plus, Starlight didn't deliberately ignore her, she was pushing ahead to set the table a bit too eagerly and didn't fully listen, but it's not like she was all "I'm gonna disobey Twilight for giggles!", she even offered to remove all the silverware and do it again Twilight's way.

 

 

 

What this clearly indicates is that Twilight is not willing to even entertain the notion that her endeavor to change Starlight's ways is being handled with anything less than complete perfection.

 

 

 I think this more indicates that Twilight is still nervous around Celestia more than anything, she goes kinda nuts whenever Celestia is involved, and that seems to have not fully gone away even now that she's a Princess. Yes, she wants to impress Celestia, but she's also shown insecurity in her teaching before, back in the Crystalling. She's clearly aware she isn't necessarily the perfect teacher.

 

 

 

It's why she's only "disappointed" in her and not actually mad, despite the fact that the ponies Starlight mind controlled were her closest friends. 

 

 

 I think she's more disappointed than mad for a few reasons. One being that, Starlight clearly didn't have bad intentions. It's almost a little bit ridiculous just how oblivious Starlight is to the moral implications of what she's done, until Twilight kinda points it out to her and then she's all "Oh, wait, when you put it like that, that does sound really bad...".

 

 On top of that, the other 5 weren't really hurt. Angry and with some magical hangover effects, but not seriously harmed. I imagine her response would have been more severe if any of them were. The other 5 were willing to forgive her after she apologized as well, all of the mane six are clearly very forgiving.

 

 

 

If she were to punish Starlight in any way, it would be an admission that her efforts have failed to some degree. And of course, she cannot accept that either. 

 

 

 What is the point of punishment, in this case? At the end of "Every little thing she does", Starlight finally seems to understand what she's done wrong, she's willing to apologize to the mane 5 and is accepting even if they decide not to forgive her, she's willing to clean up the mess she made in the castle...What's the point? Revenge? Cleaning the castle could even be considered her punishment, but it's one she does willingly.

 

 

 

 

It certainly does seem like Twilight will put Starlight before the rest of the mane five, and that's what I find particularly troubling.
 

 

 I don't see it, we haven't been given a situation that shows this at all. She didn't have to choose between anypony in "Every little thing she does", all of her friends were willing to forgive Starlight in the end.

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Never ask for thoughts. I will often give them. Also not gonna quote since i am addressing the thoughts as a whole and not as snippets, and want to lay out my reasoning and personal opinion as well.

 

I would not say Starlight is her new best friend. Since the term "best friend" implies to only one and if you used the main 5 before Starlight ever came around, who was Twilight's best friend then? I would say she is just one of her best friends, and we just see her interacting with her more currently then everyone else. You have to remember, this last season none of them have been interacting much as a group in any sort of way much like they used to. Because of that it sometimes can be hard to say where all their friendships lie currently. But the thing is, they had those 5 seasons to get that all figured out, they don't have to be all up under each others hooves to know where they stand with one another. They are still the best of friends, i just don't think the writers want to continue reminding us of that every single episode. I just think Starlight is being pushed more and more into the framework... but it would be nice if she were being paired up with the other members of the cast instead of just Twilight every damn time. This is actually one of my issues with the cutie map.. but that is a topic for another time.


I agree with you completely on your estimation of why Twilight took Starlight on as a pupil. It is not all that hard to see Twilight was not doing it for the sake of Starlight, but also to advance herself not only in the eyes of her teacher, but in her own heart as well. Nothing wrong with that either... it is pretty natural for someone to step up and take on a challenge to impress someone of authority over you, as well as to test yourself and give yourself that sense of accomplishment if and when you succeed.

How much trust she actually has in no Second Prances is shaky at best... Twilight spends one scene totally trusting her, and the next stalking her... that is not unwavering. And please stop with the repercussions on every single thing she does... she got overexcited and used magic to set the table while Twilight was talking... I would let it slide to, it is not the end of the world. When someone gets overly enthusiastic about a lesson or assignment and jumps the gun on something, you don't beat them upside the head for it, you praise their enthusiasm and try to teach them patience. I know people don't like her, but seriously, it is getting to the point where if she does not use the bathroom in alphabetical order she needs to be drawn and quartered for it. So no, it is not telling.. just exuberance.

i think you are spot on on you're assessment of the Trixie fiasco. But Twilight has made it plenty clear through the seasons she tries to be a perfectionist.. so that is not too surprising here. The idea of failure is her worst Nightmare after all... to the point where she will go to ridiculous lengths to avoid it instead of just accepting and learning from it. Failing does not make one a failure, although to Twilight that is not the case.

 
Of course she compliments her.. she was impressed by the spell. You can do something very wrong and still impress someone with how you managed it. I once managed to get an AC unit in the backyard apart with no tools... my dad almost killed me, but he was impressed all the same. Starlight is powerful.. and her ability to use magic is pretty damn impressive... how she uses it is questionable, but that does not mean it should not be respected.


Also, it has been made very apparent Starlight is "not quite right in the head" several times. They have not had to imply anything nor dance around the issue at all. She suffers from extreme anxiety issues and social ineptitude. Couple that with extreme fears of rejection and deeply seated feelings of guilt and sprinkle on top some good old fashioned fear of failure and you have a nice recipe for all sorts of internal struggle. And make no mistake about it, people struggle with all of these things all the time. Twilight was not trying to make light of the situation at all... she was trying to understand it and putting things into perspective for herself. She may be her teacher now, but she is still learning about Starlight as much as Starlight is learning about herself. What is she supposed to do? Start screaming at her and throwing a fit like an angry baboon? Is she supposed to start clubbing her like a baby seal or dropping heavy stones on her while reminding her that it hurts herself more than it hurts her? I mean seriously? People keep using the word "punishment" to describe a solution to a situation involving a pony/person with a lot of very real conflicting internal issues that did something wrong that did not get someone killed or involve turning the town into a crater. And yet I am willing to bet if the topic of spanking a child for stealing, bullying, not doing their homework, pissing the bed, etc.. popped up, most of the same people using that word would be adamant that the solution would be trying to understand and helping them and not clobbering them whether physically or verbally. At the end of the day, all of those things often stem from some deeper issues as well and are often the results of those issues not being understood or talked about. Yeah... she was disappointed... I would be to. And having Twilight be disappointed in her, and as such mean she failed in her approach had to sting a whole lot more than 50 lashes.

That being said, I do agree Twilight does not want to accept failure. She does not accept it in herself, and in turn would not accept it in Starlight. Of course she is proud of her, most true friends are. You can make mistakes and disappoint each other from time to time and still be proud of knowing each other. Furthermore Twilight can take pride in both Starlight's accomplishments, as well as pride in herself for helping her make those strides. Nothing unusual in any of that. I do not not believe any of that translates into Twilight hiding her failures or pretending her mistakes did not happen. Starlight as done some pretty diabolical things it's true, from brainwashing an entire village of ponies to cough up their cutie mark to screwing with space and time.

But so what?

Twilight acknowledged all of those. Starlight has also shown she does not want that type of life, not a life of hate an villainy... she wants something more, something better. So instead of saying, "OK, you made some pretty big mistakes but nothing that can't be fixed" and going forward and trying to help her become the pony she wants to be and in the process better yourselves as well... the answer is.. what? Stone her? Put her in chains? Throw her in Tartarus and be glad you got another person that needed help but was too ashamed or too scared to ask for it out of the picture so you can go back to a life of friendship and love and this thought that you will help anyone who needs it unless of course they do something you disagree with?


i don't think she will put Starlight before the Mane 5 at all. I think she does take her student seriously and her fears and worries are of great concern to her. But I also don't think she will put the Mane 5 before Starlight either. because that is not what friendship is about... putting your friends in order from best to last like you are picking players for kickball. She cares about them all, and takes all of their concerns and thoughts seriously... and not picking and choosing who and who does not matter on a given day. She is Strarlight's teacher, they currently live together, by all means they are going to be around each other a lot. That does not mean the other characters are unwanted, ignored or forgotten about. It just means Twilight has a job to do, and she is trying to do it.


My thoughts are pretty clear. I find Starlight a somewhat boring character, and i am not crazy about her because they shoehorned her into the show itself. They could have reformed her in the finale, made friends with her and taught her all about it, and sent her off on her way to spread that message across Equestria.. I would have been fine with that. My feelings are that there have been a lot of interesting characters i have liked in one form or another throughout the seasons so why don't they get to join the "mane" cast? The answer is because the show is not about me. But on that note, what makes Starlight worthy of that... why can't she become a background character that played a big role in an episode like Cheerilee or Big Mac or Cranky Doodle? She can still pop up from time to time and play a significant role without changing the dynamics. And if we are changing the dynamics.. why just her? As I said, there have been plenty of characters that people like that get a tiny bit of screen time here and there that is applauded, but they don't get to become major cast members?

That being said, I also think people dislike her, many for the same reasons I sort of do... but instead of being honest and stating that, they try to turn her into a version of Pony Hitler just so they can loathe her more and build a case to make others hate her as well. They take everything they can and blow it up so out of proportion that in the end I have to wonder if we are watching the same program. I mean seriously... she cast a mind control spell on some ponies that made them do stupid, ridiculous and comical things just so she could get out of doing her homework... that's it... nothing else... no hidden meaning, no secret agenda... but yet I see all the time it spun in a way like she was taking their souls and forcing them to do manual labor in some deep dark dungeon or pit somewhere for her own evil amusement. OK, you don't like her, and her being lazy and casting a spell on ponies you do like sat wrong with you... I get it... now please build a damn bridge and get over it. I could write an entire essay on why venisont is evil and hunters suck and blah blah blah... or i could just say it tastes awful and drop it.

Finally, Starlight is boring to me. They need to do more interesting things with her or make her go away.

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A lot of this mirrors what I was thinking about Twilight around the end of season 5. In "What About Discord?," she refuses to accept her jealousy because she's the Princess of Friendship, so can't be jealous. To me, this indicates that she has extremely, perhaps even unhealthily high expectations of herself, as she can't accept the possibility that she feels as normal an emotion as jealousy. Similarly, "The Hooffields & the McColts" featured Twilight introduce herself upfront as being there to fix the titular families' friendship problem, and seems entirely convinced that her first solution will work. I always interpreted that as a massive act of egotism from her, but perhaps Twilight is under the impression that her title doesn't allow her to make mistakes. 

 

"No Second Prances" certainly carried that on, and as you've said, she seems to only be actively antagonistic to Starlight when she introduces something which could possibly make her look bad to Celestia. However, while Celestia's approval is clearly important to her, I think the pony she's really trying to impress is herself. Again, she thinks she has to get everything right, and Trixie is a possible sign that she didn't do everything just perfectly, which she can't do, because she's the Princess of Friendship! The Princess of Friendship isn't allowed to make mistakes. Twilight has always been a perfectionist, and this new weight of expectations and responsibility could easily push that aspect of her personality to the unhealthy. 

 

That's about the last time I saw a whole lot of evidence for this idea, though.

 

 

After Twilight confronts Starlight for her actions in that episode, the first thing she does is almost compliment her for how powerful the spell was. There was something very off about that to me, especially with the way she proudly states that her friends "are going to feel that in the morning." She doesn't seem even slightly upset with the fact that Starlight cast the spell at all, instead she feels the need to set the tone by subtly complimenting her for her magical prowess. 

 

You know why? Because in that moment, it was the only thing she could possibly cling to in order to make light of the situation. 

That... makes sense. Twilight is seeing something which is impossible to justify, from someone who she thought was doing really well, and it's entirely shocking to her. So she starts off by trying to find the silver lining. Not unreasonable. 

 

 

The fact that Starlight used the spell at all certainly seems to imply that she's not as right in the head as she appears to be, yet Twilight seems to go out of her way not to acknowledge it, even when Starlight clearly displays that doesn't understand that casting the spell in the first place was wrong. Perhaps she sympathizes with her for making a similar mistake once, but overall, it seems to me that Twilight simply cannot accept that Starlight probably needs more mental help than she lets on, and that's why she makes light of the situation and does not punish her in any way for it. It's why she's only "disappointed" in her and not actually mad, despite the fact that the ponies Starlight mind controlled were her closest friends. 

 

If she were to punish Starlight in any way, it would be an admission that her efforts have failed to some degree. And of course, she cannot accept that either. 

 

So yes, I think that having Starlight as a friend makes Twilight feel proud of herself for the fact that she had managed to turn her around. I do not believe that there's anything Starlight can do that Twilight simply won't shove under the rug, no social boundaries she can break that Twilight won't simply shrug off. It certainly does seem like Twilight will put Starlight before the rest of the mane five, and that's what I find particularly troubling. 

Here's where I start to disagree. Twilight did get mad at Starlight. Look at this clip: She's actively shouting at Starlight, so even if she says "I'm not mad at you, but I am disappointed," it's clear that she's bothered by what Starlight's done. What I figure is that Twilight believes Starlight's anxiety to be the brunt of the issue, especially since yes, she can sympathize, and Twilight herself hasn't really done anything like that since "Lesson Zero." Twilight (thus far, correctly) assumes that Starlight has learned from her mistake, and believes that further punishment wouldn't be of much use now that Starlight realizes what she's done wrong and is probably already feeling pretty crappy about it. It's worth noting that Twilight's friends, as well, were able to forgive her, so this is ostensibly not something specific to Twilight - her friends are just as willing to accept that Starlight has learned from her mistake. Twilight will not put Starlight before the rest of the mane five - despite what she might hope for, her relationship with Starlight isn't half as close as with the others - but right now I don't think she believes that she'll have to make that choice. 

 

What confuses me is that everyone's just sort of ignoring that Starlight outright needed to be informed that what she was doing is wrong. She had no capacity to realize that on her own, and both Twilight and Spike don't appear to catch on to that at all. I don't think Twilight is willingly ignoring it - as far as I can tell, she didn't notice it at all, especially given that Spike makes no comment on it either. I do agree that Starlight clearly has deeper issues, particularly with her decision making process, that need to be addressed, but neither Twilight nor Spike nor any of Twilight's friends, who I assume spent time with Starlight after that episode, seem to have noticed this at all. To her credit, Starlight does appear to have realized just how badly she screwed up, as when we next see her in the finale she completely distrusts her own judgment. Given her actions in the finale, maybe Twilight was right to believe she'd learned from her mistakes.

Edited by AlexanderThrond
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Well when it comes to Twilight, Twilight shows more of a teacher-student kind of relationship, like Celestia and Twilight. Friends, but not the best of friends. Starlight already has Sunburst and Trixie to fill in that gap! In fact, Starlight might even consider Spike to be higher on the list to Twilight's, because hey, he actually cares about Starlight's feelings. He would go out of his way to help her rekindle her friendship with Sunburst (despite her not wanting to), and he checks up on her from time to time, and it's because he wants to; Twilight doesn't ask him to. Proves that Spike is the better friend! He doesn't try so hard unlike Twilight!

 

Same goes with Discord! While Twilight still doesn't trust Discord completely, Spike actually gave him a chance! But still, Starlight still does trust Twilight's word, despite Twilight trying so hard to be the best teacher, and Starlight trying to be the best student. Why does Twilight need Starlight as a best friend anyway? She's got the Mane Six as her best friends!

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Ultimately, however, I think that her desire to prove herself has outweighed any desire to see Starlight's growth in friendship. 

Very interesting point   :sunbutt:. That make sense, it just like season 2 all over again, Twilight has always been a perfectionist. Wait, you mean Starlight right now is just another "achivement" for Twilight to achive as a princess ? :o, now that disturbed me... Season 7 needs to address THIS, if your points are true, this would be a good story for Twilight... 

 

Thanks to you, i cant see their "friendship" the same like before anymore... :sunny:

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Glad I saw that thread, very good points made. I'll just add that Starlight is behaving not unlike a child because as she so aptly put it in the finale, Sunburst moved on but she did not. Twilight as a result falls to adopting a parental approach after Starlight makes her mistakes, because she considered her an "adult" before she does - which is wrong of her.

 

As pointed out before, Starlight is in dire need of guidance, just like a child would need their parents to tell them what is wrong and what isn't. However, she had put herself in a role of leader and mayor. That definitely adds to her confusion...and now that she has realised she was wrong, and now that she has realised she keeps being wrong, her self-confidence has been shattered. Leading to Starlight entirely distrusting her very own judgment, and it's up to Trixie to give her the push she needed in the finale.

 

Now she has gained some confidence back, however it's still very unstable. It's likely Starlight will grow over-confident and Twilight will have to bring her back to earth. Conversely, Twilight is likely to refuse to acknowledge she can actually be wrong and will be especially adamant about it when told so by Starlight - much like how a parent refuses to acknowledge being wrong when told so by their child.

 

As for Twilight, she's starting to become used to dealing with friendship problems, but is quite visibly lost when it comes to handling Starlight. However, the princess of friendship can not be wrong, like others said. What I'd like to add here is that she's also afraid of disappointing Starlight. Celestia, herself, that's for sure. Disappointing her very own first pupil, that'd be quite a blow to her.

 

It's a very curious relationship the two of them share and a variety of situations can arise because of it, dealing with parent-child issues. Especially since Twilight still considers herself "inferior" to Celestia instead of her equal, mirroring Starlight's relationship with Twilight. Both Twilight and Celestia are princesses and Twilight has proven herself now. She may not be as mature, but she needs to grow past always doing it for Celestia. Not too much though, little girls still need to be able to relate to her.

 

... I wonder what'd happen if Starlight came to think Twilight only took her as her pupil to feel better about herself though, as a few mentioned. :ooh:

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