Azureth

Censorship of Cider to Juice in every territory.

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I find this change to be a little silly, but nothing to get upset about.

Apparently cider in the UK is solely an alcoholic beverage, I guess I can see why it would get censored over there.

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I hate censorship but also altering a source material to appease the stupidity of other countries.

 

Understand that considering your choice of words isn't 'censorship' so much as basic social skills (I usually avoid the word 'stupid' not for any political correctness reason but simply because it tends to provoke a negative reaction from those branded stupid.) This goes double around children, who are highly impressionable. 

 

It's all well and good to talk about the integrity of the source material, but if 'cider' was meant and widely understood to mean the non-alcoholic drink then replacing the word 'cider' with the far less ambiguous 'juice' doesn't change the creators' vision or the audiences' understanding. It also isn't really a significant change aside from removing the possibility of children misunderstanding and potentially learning a bad lesson.

 

In the broader sense, there is a time and a place for censorship. There is some evidence to suggest that revealing the name of a spree killer prompts copycat attempts, for example, so it has been suggested that if the media were to omit the name of the criminal then there would be fewer of them. That would be censorship, but it might still be a good idea - that is when the discussion on censorship matters. 

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Personally I'm not against it if they change it to juice, IF cider really is alcohol in whatever place the episode is being distributed.

 

Thing is, I'd REALLY like to know how the episode sounds in the UK version...did they get the VAs to redub their lines or something, or is it just some lazy audio copy-paste?

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The proper term for the alcoholic cider is called "hard cider".

 

That may indeed the case in the US, but in the rest of the world (or at least most of it), cider is exclusively an alcoholic drink, which has been around since long before the US existed as a country.  Hasbro are seemingly thinking internationally.

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@heavens-champion, @Once In A Blue Moon, everyone else...

 

It's not that I don't care about the underlying concept behind this change...but to be honest, I don't really care that much...but, when I think about censorship, I think about the idea of translation theory. When something is changed from one language to another (and I think regional differences count), the intent of the author or creator is distorted. Cider/juice may be minor but it's just one example of someone's intention being changed to suit somebody else's narrative, making me think of whether it's truly possible for a genuine translation to be done. When they said cider, they meant cider. Not juice. Those aren't the same thing. Case in point, the ponies drink juice all year long. It's an important idea for me because if I were to ever get a book published, I would not want it distorted. I would want my own voice to be clear in any language.

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Tbh, I raised an eyebrow when I first heard the word "cider" as I'm British. I can't see little kids drinking alcoholic cider now because "Applejack told me to" though.

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When they said cider, they meant cider.

 

Did they mean [alcoholic] cider? 

 

I think about the idea of translation theory. When something is changed from one language to another (and I think regional differences count), the intent of the author or creator is distorted.

 

The convention, so far as I am aware of it, is that a translation should capture the intent of the original. Word for word often doesn't work as well, especially when word-play is involved. Case in point, I once read (in English) ​The Resistible Rise of Atruro Ui, a play that is a parody of Hitler's rise to power. The interesting bit is that the play opens in rhyme - both in English and in German*. The translator changed the words to make them rhyme because the author's vision was that the introduction rhyme rather than have exactly the same wording (which may not even be possible - some words don't have direct translations and so on.)

 

It's an important idea for me because if I were to ever get a book published, I would not want it distorted. I would want my own voice to be clear in any language.

 

If you want your words to be clear in a given language then you will need to write it in that language. Or at least translate it yourself. Otherwise, it's a case of trusting that the translator understands the base material, the language and the culture and produces a translation that has the same effect as the original does. 

 

 

 

*

 

post-34886-0-64335700-1482610473_thumb.png 

 

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From what I know, Norwegian sider can be alcholic, but is more like pop/soda/soft drink.  MLP is cringy enough in Norwegian, but if this "Juice" thing hits the dub. I'm writing a strongly worded email and maybe buying an impuls ticket to wherever I need to go to, regarding this matter! I am all for the AJ's of the fandom to go up there and go all brutaly honest. I will go up there and give them a "generous" dose of.....well of somthing. I havn't thought this through, but I'm not pleased!

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In the U.K., cider is viewed as alcoholic compared to the United States and Canada where it isn't labelled as such. While this decision may seem controversial--and it is--you should know that the U.K. has been having a lot of issues regarding alcohol, and have been trying to dissuade it from being brought up in various media forms. Being mentioned in a children's cartoon is seen as problematic to the point where it could be deemed illegal over there. Granted, the fact that all countries have gotten this edited version does seem to be a mistake, but only Hasbro knows that decision. Whether they are willing to talk about it or not remains to be seen.

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Fun fact; Non-alcoholic cider doesn't foam

Another fun fact: Fermentation doesn't happen instantaneously.  Head on over to wiki and they'll tell you cider is typically fermented from anywhere between three months and three years.  Could the stuff be fermented in comparatively less time?  I'm sure it could.  But could fermentation be accomplished during the minutes (even hours seems like a stretch) between production and distribution we saw during the contest with Flim and Flam?

 

Here's a frothy-headed mug that was handed to Granny immediately after the Super Cider Whatsit sucked apples out of a tree and pressed them into cider:

post-26550-0-15654500-1482612475_thumb.png

 

There's foam in the cider because it's a visual cue that there's cider in the mug.  I always see the "cider foam" argument pop up when this topic does, and it doesn't hold water.

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Did they mean [alcoholic] cider?

We don't know if alcohol exists in equestria.
 

 

The translator changed the words to make them rhyme because the author's vision was that the introduction rhyme rather than have exactly the same wording (which may not even be possible - some words don't have direct translations and so on.)

 

Good note. Intent is often utilized when trying to make a translation. But I think the writers hadn't intended for the drinks to connotate anything but actual cider. If British people see it as alcoholic, they are imposing their own views on the word. To change it then alters the intent?

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If British people see it as alcoholic, they are imposing their own views on the word. To change it then alters the intent?

 

If the word has a different meaning in the UK, then surely it undermines the intent to use a word that the British will misunderstand, at least in the UK localisation? 

 

Still, there is a way to solve the intent question. As I recall (and hastily check online), apple juice in German is apfelsaft whilst [alcoholic] cider is apfelwein - the German localisation should make clear which they mean.

 

[...]

 

Aha, there we go. Apfelsaft. So, at least as far as the German localisation team were concerned, there wasn't any alcohol involved.

 

The question of whether one should use the original at risk of being misunderstood, or change according to the target audience, remains open though. As an aside, I note that the Flim and Flam still rhyme, even in German.

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Eh, I can see why this would be done. Here in the US cider isn't necessarily alcoholic so calling it Cider doesn't matter but elsewhere it does...That said, on a personal level, this does kind of bother me, and I'm hoping this doesn't stick for the US versions. Change it elsewhere, but leave the US version alone.

 

 I know if this sticks it's just going to irritate me, because every time I hear juice I'll just think "It's supposed to be cider!", and it'll mess with my immersion a bit. :dry:

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If the word has a different meaning in the UK, then surely it undermines the intent to use a word that the British will misunderstand, at least in the UK localisation?

Yes, very right. Changing some things for clarity could be good especially when dealing with different languages. Yet, in this case, we're dealing with essentially the same word which is marginally different. Perhaps it's not too much to ask for them to simply learn the differences and apply it to their understanding. Cider is not alcoholic in the US for example. The target audience is of course six year old children who might not be able to grasp the differences though. Then again, that may be neither here nor there as the target audience aren't the ones raising a fuss. I'm sure they don't care what words are being used. The parents should know better than to be ignorant about what "cider" means in the US or Canada (if that applies). If that's not possible then perhaps keeping the intent intact may require the changing of a word.

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According to Wikipedia, the word cider only means non-alcoholic cider in the US and parts of Canada. Which means the UK, Australia, India, Hong Kong, Ireland, New Zealand and loads of other countries view "cider" as something alcoholic - which we all seem to agree is not fit for a children's show (and personally, being a grown-up no less, I'm glad we havent seen any alcohol in Equestria). Population-wise, the US Americans are severely outnumbered in this case, which would make "apple juice" the better choice of words. Viewer-wise, I'm not as certain. Does the US have more (English language version) MLP viewers than the rest of the world combined?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_juice

In Swedish, it's easy. Non-alcoholic apple cider has its own word: äppelmust ("eppelmoost" if you want to try and pronounce it).

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Perhaps it's not too much to ask for them to simply learn the differences and apply it to their understanding.

 

Just as soon as Americans start doing that with metric measurements.   

 

Jokes aside, that works when you know it's coming, or when you can derive it from context, but neither of those apply in this case. When someone remarks that it's almost one hundred degrees outside I'm fairly sure they aren't using centigrade (or in the UK for that matter) but I wouldn't even have realised that Americans use 'cider' to label a non-alcoholic drink if I hadn't learnt it in passing conversation a couple of years ago.

 

 

 

The parents should know better than to be ignorant about what "cider" means in the US

 

I don't deny that it's an interesting thing to know, but it's not up there with pants and football as a well known word that Americans use differently. Much like the fact that in the US there is no distinction between barrister and solicitor, there are some things you don't go out to learn but simply happen across.

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I would generally agree, but in this case (SSCS6000) when it's a children's cartoon episode focused on the manufacture and consumption of cider, which in the UK is solely an alcoholic drink, I can just about stretch to giving them a pass for that one.

 

(I'd prefer the didn't censor it, but I'm not going to make a song and dance about it)

The problem is, kids are smart, and they see and understand far more than we adults give them credit for. They will put 2 and 2 together and soon the word "juice" will be taboo. It always works this way. I say just be honest about the whole thing. RD may have an addiction episode coming up, who knows. They've had other coming-of-age episodes and issues alluded to, (like pet death with Tank's "hibernation"...again...Rainbow Dash...that poor girl. Oh! Tank's death caused RD to drink! Ok...I'm going to stop, that's a bad thread of thought, hahaha) but getting back to point. Children are offered ciders at Halloween and Christmas all over the place, they don't know it to be an alcoholic drink, just like eggnog. It can be quite...benign. They're overreacting, but then, they're probably responding to over-reacting parents, so....I guess we can't be mad at the company, but the mind sets that cause these sort of silly things.

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I understand it for the UK but why in America? Cider is widely used as a non-alcoholic drink

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I understand it for the UK but why in America? Cider is widely used as a non-alcoholic drink

As I said on page 1, Netflix probably got the edited version by mistake.

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Just as soon as Americans start doing that with metric measurements.

Now I'm reading that in Twilight's know-it-all voice.

 

Much like the fact that in the US there is no distinction between barrister and solicitor, there are some things you don't go out to learn but simply happen across.

 

 

That's fair. Too bad the reason for this was more than making it accessible to children.

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As a drinker of that cider what makes your head feel spinny, I see this as a right bash at cider drinkers everywhere. How dare they change a kiddies programme where they drink a pint of ol' scrumpy and then get sloshed? 'Tis an important part of Summerrset livin' and the sooner they learn to have a good drink the better, I say.

 

I am a cider drinker, I drinks it all of the day, I am a cider drinker, it soothes all me troubles away...

 

Satire aside, it really doesn't bother me. It's a kids show, and if anything hasbro has a lacklustre record when it comes to censorship, so what do people expect? What does bother me is that some people are missing out on a good ol' pint of thatchers over there in the states.

 

Oh wait.

 

https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2014/09/thatchers-cider-makes-move-on-us-market/

 

Get on that yanks, you're missing out. Better than Applejacks, no doubt.

 

Oo arr ooh arr eh, oo arr ooh arr eh...

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Which is really weird considering that sparkling apple cider is also a popular non alcoholic holiday drink. And it's not as if most kids have never seen a family member having a drink before geeze.

 

Besides, if thousands of kids can watch the characters from Dumbo getting accidentally shitfaced then these kids should be fine.

Edited by Leave a Whisper

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If this is of interest to anyone, the episode is on Discovery Family right now and it's unedited. I believe the edited version was just for Tiny Pop, and as I said before, Netflix probably got that version by mistake. I don't think this is a case of censoring it in the U.S., and this makes it seem more like that.

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HAHAHA the comment where someone is complaining because she says "come on everypony taste my *****(juice)"

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Interesting thing I found. On Netflix with the subtitles on it still says cider even though she says juice.

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