External and internal symbolism in a story (critique being offered and wanted.)

[Lil Pip 775]

What sort of symbols do you like to use? Are they interconnected, or just comparisons, or keys to associate different events?

 

In Undertale for example I notice during one youtuber's play-through, he connected the dots on something early because of the golden flowers you land on in two different parts of the story. Then some metaphors have many parallels and can be looked at in-depth for ideas, which is what I mean by interconnected. Its not flawless but it is basically used as a medium to convey emotions that otherwise would not be possible to describe in the right context for the story. Another way to do that perhaps is to speak of a memory as indirectly related to an event the character is feeling.

 

I really enjoy this sort of thing because I used to keep a dream journal, and because of psychology. Writing is very neat in some ways, and I like parallels and comparisons. As long as it doesn't distract from a story I feel it can be used as a more meaningful tool that helps people realize something they could have trouble with otherwise.

 

Be it a teacher explaining a story to a student (which is great in fiction for decisive moments, story-ception lol. Also it kind of reverse psychological primes/projects onto the reader so they feel the emotions of the protagonist or whomever to understand them better in that moment, and the teacher. Its like you are a part of the story right there. Its immersive, and you forget yourself more readily and forget it as 'plot' and 'characters' and try understanding them as people more. Individuals.)

 

Also a great thing about symbolism is, when its approached vaguely, or is a deep metaphor, is it can have multiple correct reasonings. There is for instance a psychological study into music for example, finding that people who are closed minded feel cognitive dissonance when something defies their expectations. Psychologically its a potential symptom of unhealthy dependence on authority or social expectation. In people who are not closed-minded the differences can be like acquired tastes, or like hearing real music for the first time, like the world is more diverse than they thought. Sort of like culture shock. So with multiple correct angles to perceive a metaphor or symbol people end up thinking on the symbol less, and more on the meaning that is trying to be conveyed. 

 

In Undertale however associative symbols like cactuses are surely the most tsundere of plants, or tsunderplane, or how flowey behaves like a cactus (trying to keep you away and make you afraid of him, trying to be intimidating or cruel.) its more associative. It gets you thinking and piecing things together. Its better for exploring a world, like a world with alot of mystery, where the world is more of interest.

 

I think it could be termed external and internal symbolism. Internal focuses on conveying a message. It is important that message gets across immediately or you won't feel the connection between the characters so its better to have parallels than trying to find matching ideas through reflection to the rest of the story. External focuses on comprehending the world, past events, less personal things. 

 

They can work together, like you can give a revelation of symbolism to someone trying to understand a past struggle they have yet to overcome for example, and the teacher offers insight into it, then it is revealed how it ties into after. Which is withholding of information but foreshadowing with symbolism, like trying to connect the dots, but it is impossible to do so until new information is revealed. It generates interest into the story. It is external symbolism being resolved thanks to internal symbolism. Which can be like a wisdom and convey meaning or a moral to the story.

 

Also, it helps direct audience attention. Like, don't focus on the problems in front of you, focus on the end goal, not the bumps in the road sorta mentality. Studies say that focusing on the hindrances makes people fail more, and focusing past them helps us move past them. Its the same idea, and can be used to demonstrate struggles and divert attention.

 

Like a cloaked person saying the crow will eat the snake at dawn. Its all obviously symbolic language you cannot perceive without new information and our brain sort of automatically picks up on it and knows its bread crumbs leading to a tasty treat foreshadowed from other pieces of information. 

 

 

What are your thoughts about this? How much symbols do you use in your stories? How much do you write (so I know the context of where you are coming from to better understand the information you share)? When should symbols be used or avoided? 

 

Thoughts in general? How do you use symbols, and why? (etc)

[LordSwinton 759]

One thing I can say about symbols for sure is:

 

DON'T ASSAULT YOUR READERS WITH THEM

 

I've analyzed quite a lot works and it's painful to see when writer use overly reoccurring symbols or those that are forced or do not fit within the work. It is much like humour, you shouldn't have to explain it, too much and too forced makes it has the opposite effect and looks atrocious. Just like road signs, you shouldn't have to explain them (or not explain too much). Not to say obvious symbolism is bad but I'd say it's hard to get it just right, but it does benefit to have numerous interpretations of the symbol. Hence in many situations, the symbols you don't notice may have greater impact on your overall experience and overanalyzing may actually decrease your enjoyment of it, in my opinion anyway.

 

They also make great use as a tool for foreshadowing as you said (though I prefer to see it the dots that links all other dots instead of numerous dots) but also for things such as personality or more visually in the fandom as cutie marks. Another example of symbolism that I can remember off the top of my head is the characters from Lord of the Flies, in particular the glasses represented clarity among the chaos (don't exactly quote me on that, haven't read it in years)

 

There is room for obvious symbolism but it could quickly turn your work into something more allegorical like Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies. If that is your intention, go ahead. However it may come off as preachy or overly political as some allegorical works do tend to turn out, and it might turn away readers. It is up to personal preference but it is good to keep in mind who your audience is and what they want. There are exceptions, but I personally think it would be hard.

 

Just because something is a symbol doesn't mean it is all there is to it. There is always more to what it than what it represents. Take for example, the Grinch steals presents, trees etc, all the symbols associated with Christmas, but there is more to Christmas than those symbols. Just like there is more to love than just holding hands and kisses. Do not rely purely on symbols to convey your message or provide characterisation. Have your pony define their cutie mark and not the other way around. Not to say your story can't revolve around a symbol but don't let it take control.

 

Another thing, a symbol is not the same as a simile or a metaphor, it often holds much more importance, not that say that a simile or metaphor does not, and it doesn't have to run parallel with a theme but symbols are not to be too carelessly placed. You could get away with using simile and metaphor more often than a symbol. Too many symbols usually isn't a good thing. Too many of anything isn't a good thing. It loses its subtlety and balance.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Swinton

[Lil Pip 775]

True, and I was too lazy to relearn the difference with the word simile and metaphor etc, I always mixed it up when I was younger. I should probably do that. 

 

But yes I know symbols are not to be used commonly, unless its about a mystery cult being investigated or tried to join it or such. But I can see how it could get in the way of plot and such, too distracting yeah. 

 

Thanks for your input.