S07:E09 - Honest Apple

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, Stickman, The Legend said:

Umm... Coming from what I'm hearing about this, mostly everyone doesn't like this episode... Hopefully A Royal Problem will pick things up.

It's just the page you opened to, before that most people liked the episode. 

[Stickman, The Legend 303]

Just now, Ganondox said:

It's just the page you opened to, before that most people liked the episode. 

True that.

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

14 hours ago, Jeric said:

This right here is why I lowered my rating one notch. I did enjoy the episode, and while I can understand the other complaints that people have, they didn't seem to bother me as much. What did make me go, "The hell?" was when that "fashion is ridiculous" line was spoken. Applejack simply would never have said that in that way, especially not in Rarity's presence. She's made fun of it before, but it never came across as anything beyond playful banter that friends do. 

And it is a bit out of character in another way. Applejack teared up at seeing Applebloom in a Gala dress. She understands something about how fashion can be meaningful even if it isn't at the same level as Hoity, Rarity, or Photo Finish. 

It helps to look at her behavior from a consumer's point of view. Applejack is untrained in this profession. She'll like a finished dress if it manages to make Applebloom or whoever's wearing it look good, but as this episode made perfectly clear, she's had no appreciation for all the creative decisions that go into making one. This is what separates artists from the general public. Nobody thinks about anything other than the result, and quite often, designers are marginalized because of it. And I speak from experience. Their work isn't all fun and games like it's perceived to be. It's about research, composition, authentication of detail, time management and execution. This line of work is not easy. If everyone understood that, and treated artists with the respect they deserve instead of devaluing them, they wouldn't be seeing so many ridiculous job offers. I know industry professionals that have been in art for at least twenty years and still get people asking them for free work in exchange for "exposure."

Having said that, Applejack wasn't out of character at all. She never liked fashion. Maybe she wouldn't have outright insulted it in front of Rarity or her colleagues in the past. But her growing frustration at repeatedly seeing things from the designers that made no sense to her, and Hoity's argument with Photo Finish over a pair of seemingly identical belts, caused her to drop all social inhibitions and flip out in a manner that's natural to her. Who can say with a straight face that they have not been guilty of this?

Reading all the criticism in this thread is baffling to me. It feels like people just don't want to see these characters exhibit dramatically different behavior, and when it happens, it somehow drags the episode down for them when it shouldn't. Applejack is a generally polite pony who just happened to show a side of her personality we've never seen before. She was upset. People do inconsiderate and irrational things when they're upset. If we're gonna shoot her down for that, then we ought to do the same with Party of One Pinkie or Lessen Zero Twilight.

Edited May 16, 2017 by KillerKingBakudan

[MalekPony 36]

This might sound bizzare, but do you think Applejack's gonna be punished for what she did in this episode?

[Jeric 46,834]

4 hours ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

It helps to look at her behavior from a consumer's point of view. Applejack is untrained in this profession. She'll like a finished dress if it manages to make Applebloom or whoever's wearing it look good, but as this episode made perfectly clear, she's had no appreciation for all the creative decisions that go into making one. This is what separates artists from the general public. Nobody thinks about anything other than the result, and quite often, designers are marginalized because of it. And I speak from experience. Their work isn't all fun and games like it's perceived to be. It's about research, composition, authentication of detail, time management and execution. This line of work is not easy. If everyone understood that, and treated artists with the respect they deserve instead of devaluing them, they wouldn't be seeing so many ridiculous job offers. I know industry professionals that have been in art for at least twenty years and still get people asking them for free work in exchange for "exposure."

Having said that, Applejack wasn't out of character at all. She never liked fashion. Maybe she wouldn't have outright insulted it in front of Rarity or her colleagues in the past. But her growing frustration at repeatedly seeing things from the designers that made no sense to her, and Hoity's argument with Photo Finish over a pair of seemingly identical belts, caused her to drop all social inhibitions and flip out in a manner that's natural to her. Who can say with a straight face that they have not been guilty of this?

Reading all the criticism in this thread is baffling to me. It feels like people just don't want to see these characters exhibit dramatically different behavior, and when it happens, it somehow drags the episode down for them when it shouldn't. Applejack is a generally polite pony who just happened to show a side of her personality we've never seen before. She was upset. People do inconsiderate and irrational things when they're upset. If we're gonna shoot her down for that, then we ought to do the same with Party of One Pinkie or Lessen Zero Twilight.

Read my last paragraph again. AJ's reaction to that Gala prep moment with her sister is how a consumer reacts, and how consumers are marketed to, an appeal to emotion, the very thing that fashion as art attempts. 

And she appreciates fashion in past episodes. Also Suited for Success. Her reaction when they all realize ... oh fuck ... no she isn't as ignorant as she was presented in this episode. 

If this is a side of AJ's personality that becomes standard going forward, she isn't going to win many new fans. She did earn a new nickname in the fandom though. 

And it is not just here in this thread. This thread is actually one the the less ... um ... caustic places I've seen this get brought up. 

4 hours ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

She'll like a finished dress if it manages to make Applebloom or whoever's wearing it look good, but as this episode made perfectly clear, she's had no appreciation for all the creative decisions that go into making one.

The prototypes were aesthetically 'finished' so ... same same. And again, she has specifically shown appreciation for the work that goes into the craft previously. 

[Thrond 3,257]

12 hours ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

then we ought to do the same with Party of One Pinkie or Lessen Zero Twilight.

1

I'm sure Applejack here would be way easier to accept if she were as fun to watch as Party of One Pinkie or Lesson Zero Twilight.

[GrimGrimoire 4,970]

10 hours ago, MalekPony said:

but do you think Applejack's gonna be punished for what she did in this episode?

No. She does not need to be.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

Eh. not terrible, but not "good" either. pretty solidly meh episode. Like, AJ just comes off as an idiot in this episode. its not even that she just dislikes what others like, she seems LITERALLY at a loss at the fact that others might have different opinions than her own, like its a foreign concept (She's basically stammering to even come to grips with the idea when she's taken to meet strawberry).

Rarity was great in this episode, but AJ was just pure DERP idiocy. It kind of was painful to watch due to this. that being said, seeing AJ be utterly roasted by strawberry in the exact same way a normal person would react to someone being unable to comprehend that they might like a different fruit (Her response was basically "Are you literally retarded? By"), and rarity's little emotional whinny's were great (Plus her air when taking AJ to strawberry and explaining to her that she was being a jackass), but it wasn't enough to carry the episode.

 

6/10, maybe a 6/10. Not terrible, but also not what i expect out of this series, sadly

Makes me want more rarity though.

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

5 hours ago, Jeric said:

Read my last paragraph again. AJ's reaction to that Gala prep moment with her sister is how a consumer reacts, and how consumers are marketed to, an appeal to emotion, the very thing that fashion as art attempts. 

And she appreciates fashion in past episodes. Also Suited for Success. Her reaction when they all realize ... oh fuck ... no she isn't as ignorant as she was presented in this episode. 

If this is a side of AJ's personality that becomes standard going forward, she isn't going to win many new fans. She did earn a new nickname in the fandom though. 

And it is not just here in this thread. This thread is actually one the the less ... um ... caustic places I've seen this get brought up. 

The prototypes were aesthetically 'finished' so ... same same. And again, she has specifically shown appreciation for the work that goes into the craft previously. 

Only Applejack never had to judge fashion on the development process. Whatever appreciation she had, as a consumer, got crushed when she observed first hand all the practices she regarded as silly. This can happen with anybody. First impressions on a product count, regardless if they're distorted by pre-conceived ideas. If she saw what Rarity did to put that Gala dress together, she probably would have wrote it off like anything else the designers made in this episode. It's closed-minded and arrogant, but even with all past episodes considered, it's still a believable character flaw. Every one of the Mane Six has something about them that fans don't like, and I don't get how anyone would get on the Applejack hate train for making this one mess when she set things right in the end.

[GrimGrimoire 4,970]

10 minutes ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

Only Applejack never had to judge fashion on the development process. Whatever appreciation she had, as a consumer, got crushed when she observed first hand all the practices she regarded as silly. This can happen with anybody. First impressions on a product count, regardless if they're distorted by pre-conceived ideas. If she saw what Rarity did to put that Gala dress together, she probably would have wrote it off like anything else the designers made in this episode. It's closed-minded and arrogant, but even with all past episodes considered, it's still a believable character flaw. Every one of the Mane Six has something about them that fans don't like, and I don't get how anyone would get on the Applejack hate train for making this one mess when she set things right in the end.

Yes she has... she was back and forth with Rarity during the design of her Gala dress,,, and after 6 seasons and some change she may not understand fashion and taste all that well compared to some, but she certainly knows what goes into it and the work it entails. She has seen all of this both as Rarity's friend AND a consumer since she has several times worn dresses made for her.

None of it was believable because she is not blunt and cruel... she is honest and caring. It has been shown time and again she does her best to stick to the truth, but always frets she will hurt someones feelings in the process. She stopped being caring and honest in this episode, she was just being uncaringly blunt, and taking satisfaction at the misery it was causing these designers. To hear somepony say how long they worked on something and how much effort they put into it, and then just callously destroy it in front of them is not her at all. To stand there staring smugly at Inky Rose while she plucked each of those buttons off one by one is not her. I could totally see her giving her opinion, but not FORCING it on others and deliberately sabotaging their work rather gleefully. As I said in my original review, it was like she was being unnecessarily vindictive over something these characters did to her, and that is not her at all. 

[Jeric 46,834]

31 minutes ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

and I don't get how anyone would get on the Applejack hate train for making this one mess when she set things right in the end.

Her setting things right isn't the issue. That was handled better, it's the journey to get there that needed better dialog and a few adjustments to the presentation of her ignorance. Also less willful destruction of art pls. 

Remember, I enjoyed the episode. My rating is public as a 4/5 up above. I based it on the writing flaws of this episode, it isn't the character I have an issue with ... which is why AJ is #3 on my fav list. 

AJ is awesome, but not in this episode. 

"That's my honest opinion" 

 

[Cwanky 17,455]

Next week on My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, Applejack works in human pony resources and must fire people. 

 

[Megas 27,064]

1 hour ago, Cwanky said:

Next week on My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, Applejack works in human pony resources and must fire people. 

 

That was one of the best King of the Hill episodes, would totally watch an AJ version

 

[Prospekt 10,984]

7 minutes ago, Whompy Whomperson said:

That was one of the best King of the Hill episodes, would totally watch an AJ version

 

1 hour ago, Cwanky said:

Next week on My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, Applejack works in human pony resources and must fire people. 

 

She knows the value of hard work, come on it's not that bad. Unless it's with Rarity's fashion businesses...

"MISS POMMEL! Rarity showed me your latest creation and it's simply HORRIBLE! Looks NOTHIN' like a dress! More like a... a... a dyin' apple tree! Disgusting! You're fired!"

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,809]

This was a good episode. As a critic of music, I find it hard to come up with the right things to say about being honest. As a classical musician, I have the knowledge of music theory and since I have perfect pitch, this doubles it up as I look for pitches that go together, and absolutely dislike when ponies sing off-key, though there are certain situations where I must be forgiving. 

In the episode, loved how Applejack stayed in character with her honesty, and how she discovered that being too honest can hurt ponies. I sometimes struggle with that. Around these forums here, I've left critiques explaining my true honesty of how a music piece was composed and the facts of what I heard. Sadly, some ponies didn't take it so well, which is understandable as they work so hard only for somepony to dump a whole 2-3 paragraphs on what the piece lacked. All in all, this was a great episode that really took aim to the art community and critics. As a musician and music critic, I want to see growth in musicians. However, I do understand that honesty can hurt but I try my utmost to not hurt others. 

EDIT: Oh yeah, and two words: METAL RARITY

Edited May 21, 2017 by C. Thunder Dash

[GiFTGewEhrSCHutzen-4 8,827]

I'm not gonna lie, this episode almost made me hate Applejack, despite being honest in her opinions and going to far with it. Glad, that she felt sorry for saying those things. Also liked the part in were Rarity was shredding the guitar. Also dig the new characters, one of them is my favorite, Inky Rose.

Oh, yeah. Good to see Photofinish back.

 

[Meeps 297]

On 5/18/2017 at 9:16 PM, Prospekt said:

 

This made my night ^! Anywho, I got some good laughs out of this episode, especially AJ's earlier comments regarding fashion. Not knocking fashion at all, but it was kind of a throwback to Shining and Cadence struggling to understand art; it takes some people initiation to be able to respect the "genres."

 Was Applejack kind of a butt? Yes, but I assume this also came from Rarity repeatedly telling her everything was fine and her opinions were very much needed despite her getting the feeling that she wasn't contributing in a positive way with her comments. Ripping up the feather hat was too much IMO. Couldn't see AJ doing something like that based on her past characterization. 

[cuteycindyhoney 13,283]

I liked the episode, but felt it a little weak. Then, this happened...

 

I was totally not expecting this. Rarity's a fashionista, detective, and total guitar queen! I can hardly believe I used to not like Rarity!

Oh, and another point. With the best of intentions, Applejack ponynapped and held captive three innocent ponies! This is edging close to as wrong as the CMC talking Big Mac into a nonconsensual kiss with a sleeping mare! Yikes!

 

Oh, and I adore Inky Rose. She's such a long, lanky, and coltish mare. Great character design!

[heavens-champion 1,893]

On 5/16/2017 at 3:27 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

I'm sure Applejack here would be way easier to accept if she were as fun to watch as Party of One Pinkie or Lesson Zero Twilight.

If that ever happens, I'd say Sweet Apple Acres is in trouble.

[MalekPony 36]

Do you think Applejack's family is going to be disappointed in her for what she did in this episode?

[Lukington17 40]

On ‎27‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 0:03 PM, MalekPony said:

Do you think Applejack's family is going to be disappointed in her for what she did in this episode?

No, because she stuck to her gut and maintained honesty throughout - it was just the way she handled it. 

I dunno, it felt like this episode raised a generally important issue in current society.   Is it ever okay to tell a lie when telling the truth would seriously hurt someone?  AJ eventually did tell the truth and it crushed poor Rarity and her friends...funnily enough in my college seminar this week we discussed these kinds of ethics and suggested that it might be permissible to bend the truth slightly, avoiding a lie altogether but sparing someone's feelings too.   AJ could've simply offered honest opinions which looked for the positives of the clothes designs, rather than constantly trying to find criticisms to make herself feel better for being honest.  Just because you're a critic doesn't mean you have to be negative (I refer any Simpsons fans to 'Guess Who's Coming to Criticize Dinner'), and I think the real drive in this episode should've been more focused on AJ coming to terms with such a balance between honesty and good-intentioned kindness, although they did hint at this in Leap of Faith.   Obviously it's a kids' show so they could never advocate fibbing or lying, but in reality there come times when telling the truth jeopardises friendships to unsalvageable levels.

Not a bad episode by a long shot, just predictable because we've seen the Rarijack combo often enough now.   Let's see something like RD & Twilight or Fluttershy & AJ

Edited May 29, 2017 by Perricone17

[Batbrony 15,994]

Alright, alright, alright, time for some new pony (here in the U.S., at least)!  I always love me some RariJack, so hopefully this proves delightful!  

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,151]

THE TIME FOR NEW PONY (in the us ) IS NOW!!!

[Batbrony 15,994]

OK, Rarity was pretty darn adorable in that opening scene (even if it doesn't make much sense that AJ would be a judge for a fashion show ).

YAY!  Photo Finish and Hoity Toity are back, that's a splendid little Season 1 callback! 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,151]

A solid start; though I can see the "fish out of water" bit coming into play here. Will be interesting to see how it is fully executed.

Rarity; that was excellent. Well done. XD