S07:E10 - A Royal Problem

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,152]

Can't wait to finally see this one! Really excited!

[Batbrony 15,994]

Heheh, I do love it when things manage these days to bring out Twilight's old-freak out tendencies.   She's usually got such a good handle on it nowadays, but that makes the times she does flip out and go all OCD all the funnier.

Also, why am I not surprised that Celestia would be bad at spotting or fessing up to a personal problem between her sister and herself?  She's fantastic at overseeing all of Equestria, but it seems family issues still elude her to some extent. 

Called it.  And trust me, as an older sibling, I can attest to the fact that we siblings often HATE confronting our own issues with each other until we're blowing up at one another.  'Tis very much a fact of sibling-hood. 

[Batbrony 15,994]

OK, so... that episode was pretty much perfect in every single way imaginable and is easily the best episode of Season 7 so far.  Yeah... that's a bit of a mouthful but I think it's very much true.  Don't worry everypony, I very much plan on having my review for this one up today, it was too good not to review as soon as I possibly can!  Goodness gracious me, I needed an episode this amazing after the last couple of episodes.  Until my review is posted, later everypony, and huzzah for a perfect episode!!! 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

35 minutes ago, Batbrony said:

Heheh, I do love it when things manage these days to bring out Twilight's old-freak out tendencies.   She's usually got such a good handle on it nowadays, but that makes the times she does flip out and go all OCD all the funnier.

Yup. This is the pony who makes checklists for the steps of making a checklist, and then wonders why she runs out of stationary so often....

Oh, and flashbacks to the freakout when she thought she didn't have a friendship problem to report to Celestia....

3 minutes ago, Batbrony said:

OK, so... that episode was pretty much perfect in every single way imaginable and is easily the best episode of Season 7 so far.  Yeah... that's a bit of a mouthful but I think it's very much true.  Don't worry everypony, I very much plan on having my review for this one up today, it was too good not to review as soon as I possibly can!  Goodness gracious me, I needed an episode this amazing after the last couple of episodes.  Until my review is posted, later everypony, and huzzah for a perfect episode!!! 

Definitely in my top five ever, and amazed they packed so much awesomeness into one single episode.  Will look forward to your review

[PinkiePie97 913]

I thought this was the best one of the season so far. I liked Celestia and Luna in this episode, and I enjoyed Daybreaker and Nightmare Moon.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,152]

This is easily one of my favorites for the season thus far. The relationship issue between Celestia and Luna seemed very real, and in the end was a lesson everyone could learn from. Add in Starlight's awesomeness and Twilight's adorable freakout, and we have a winner!

[FlareGun45 2,221]

Starlight's got a Spike toothbrush! :3 A little gift from him after the reunion with Sunburst? :3 Guess they might have Spike merchandise over at the Crystal Empire!

[CypherHoof 26,479]

Just now, MegaSean45 said:

Starlight's got a Spike toothbrush! :3 A little gift from him after the reunion with Sunburst? :3 Guess they might have Spike merchandise over at the Crystal Empire!

ooor - Twilight was in too much of a hurry, and now Spike is wondering where his toothbrush is?

[Jeric 46,835]

13 minutes ago, PathfinderCS said:

This is easily one of my favorites for the season thus far. The relationship issue between Celestia and Luna seemed very real, and in the end was a lesson everyone could learn from. Add in Starlight's awesomeness and Twilight's adorable freakout, and we have a winner!

Also ... don't forget

 

....

 

 

 

 

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,297]

Still one of the most disappointing episodes of this season so far for me.

[Brainstorm 4,092]

This was a cool episode.

Celestia and Luna switch places for a day, Twilight's new spell, Starlight's first mission, seeing the Map Calling on not just the Main Six, Nightmare Moon vs Daybreaker.

It was a pretty cool episode.

 

[The Nth Doctor 652]

5 hours ago, Kyoshi said:

Still one of the most disappointing episodes of this season so far for me.

So you're hung up on Starlight coming along and forcing them to confront their problem rather than having it blow up later and probably being cataclysmic, with both sisters going all out and razing Equestria to the ground?

[Thrond 3,257]

11 minutes ago, The Nth Doctor said:

rather than having it blow up later and probably being cataclysmic, with both sisters going all out and razing Equestria to the ground?

Would it have, though? 

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,297]

16 minutes ago, The Nth Doctor said:

So you're hung up on Starlight coming along and forcing them to confront their problem rather than having it blow up later and probably being cataclysmic, with both sisters going all out and razing Equestria to the ground?

Doesn't matter to me. This isn't the Royal Sisters episode I was waiting for. To me, it had bad characterizations, Starlight was forced into it, and while I thought Daybreaker was cool, the dream stuff was pretty bland. 

[Jeric 46,835]

21 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Would it have, though? 

That appears to be the intent of the narrative throughout the episode. Whether you reject the premise or interpret it differently is another story, but everything from the cold open's closing seconds (dialog and music), to Twilight's reaction throughout, to Starlight ... it sets it up as what the characters thought ... and to a degree what Celestia thought was possible. 

[Thrond 3,257]

1 minute ago, Jeric said:

That appears to be the intent of the narrative throughout the episode. Whether you reject the premise or interpret it differently is another story, but everything from the cold open's closing seconds (dialog and music), to Twilight's reaction throughout, to Starlight ... it sets it up as what the characters thought ... and to a degree what Celestia thought was possible. 

I genuinely interpreted it as Twilight overreacting. As I said before, without really understanding how this could happen, I'm inclined to believe that Twilight and Starlight were both being a little silly to fear that. 

[Misty Shadow 7,085]

No going against the grain for me this time, I loved this episode. Daybreaker is what got me interested in it, but I liked the conflict between Celestia and Luna better. It's so fun to see how they're not perfect.

[Jeric 46,835]

14 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

Doesn't matter to me. This isn't the Royal Sisters episode I was waiting for. To me, it had bad characterizations, Starlight was forced into it, and while I thought Daybreaker was cool, the dream stuff was pretty bland. 

That's fine. Not everyone likes the same thing ... my wife hated Star Wars for example ...

We can definately agree to disagree on most of what you said. 

 

I would suggest perhaps adding something besides the casual drive-by saying "still dislike it" next time. It almost came off as like you were hoping that someone would say something. Not sure why, but that was what it felt like. 

[Truffles 2,033]

Whike I liked the episode well enough the first time, it was actually easier to enjoy the second time around because none of the baggage from the internet panic brought about by the leak of the episode's premise was weighing down on it anymore.

tl;dr: I could just sit back and enjoy it the second time. 

After seeing it again though, I think I would've had Twilight send Spike along with Starlight as her assistant since this was her first(?) visit to the palace. He's familiar with the castle and the goings-on there, he's familiar with at least Celestia, and he would have provided a counterbalance to their mutual freaking out as the reliable voice of reason yet again.

On the morning she switched their cutie marks, he could have simply been written to be sleeping in so the plot wouldn't need to change by him being there to prevent her impulsive act. It seemed like a waste of an opportunity to use his character in an effective manner and he was already present in the episode, so seemed like a no-brainer that he would go.

Twilight already bent the rules in regards to who could participate since she was there in mind if not in body so I don't think his presence would have caused the Tree of Harmony to get pissed and bring sbout the end of the world or something. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Truffles

[GoldenGumdrop 164]

I really liked this episode since we get to see that the royal sisters do have insecurities just like everyone else. I feel that Starlight switching Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks was an appropriate thing in this episode because Luna and Celestia would not have been able to solve and see how difficult each other's jobs are. It reminds me of people who think my job is so easy. "Oh, you're a pre-K teacher? All you do is play with kids all day!" Nope, I not only teach them academics but social and life skills. It's tough and anyone who thinks they can handle it please try! Anyway, I felt bad for poor Luna who has anxiety over wanting to be liked after she went through the period of being Nightmare Moon. You can tell that that not raising that money for the little fillies/colts bothered her. Teeth falling out is a pretty common dream and it's obvious Luna has social anxiety because she feels her smile is "fake." I can relate as I have trouble smiling and people will take it as being fake or trying too hard.

[Jeric 46,835]

4 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I genuinely interpreted it as Twilight overreacting. As I said before, without really understanding how this could happen, I'm inclined to believe that Twilight and Starlight were both being a little silly to fear that. 

I can see that. The episode does leave a few unanswered or unresolved items hanging. One being whether the stakes were real or imagined. Two others were Starlight's surprised line about the cutie marks switching back. She stated it lasts 24 hours. Was it early? If so was it the Map? Finally, you have the Map itself. I find it cool that other characters can be summoned, but we still have almost no details about why this change happened. It fits with the idea Twilight once mentioned to Starlight that ALL friendships are important, but without some subtle explanation ... I'm left to just shrug and accept it which is kinda a hollow feeling. 

Again, none of these will make me lower my rating. This was a fun episode and probably my second favorite after Glideance, but man did I feel like I had to do a little heavy lifting to tie some things up myself. 

[Chuckles4lyfe 441]

Wow... simply stunning. I haven't been left this blown away since Season 6's "The Saddle Row Review". I am happy to see that an overwhelming majority of us enjoyed it (86% Love rating must be a new record or something ). I really have to commend MLP for still finding ways to surprise me after nearly 7 years on the air. Lewis and Songco have really hit a home run with this episode. To me, this is the best episode of season 7 and definitely in the top 10 of all time! I definitely need to rewatch this episode a couple more times before I even begin to formulate my thoughts and opinions. 

 

[Thrond 3,257]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

Finally, you have the Map itself.

At this rate, I've sorta given up hope on getting any sort of explanation for the damn thing. 

[Music Chart Fan 818]

Overall, I find this episode a bit of a mixed bag. On the one hand, there are a fair number of things to like about it. To give a few examples, Twilight's check-ups and freaking out are enjoyable to watch, as is Twilight (and even Starlight) being a music box ballerina. It's nice to see Celestia's and Luna's jobs fleshed out more, and it's heartwarming to see them recognize the work each of them does and make things up to each other in the end. Luna's dream with the mocking kids and her teeth falling out is appropriately creepy, and it's interesting to see Daybreaker, the "corrupted" version of Celestia, and the arguments that Daybreaker makes.

However, the biggest issue I have with the episode is that Starlight yet again resorts to recklessly and immorally using her magic to violate the bodies and minds of others - in this case, to switch Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks without their consent. While Starlight worries about a catastrophic result to her doing this after the fact, no one seems to point out the basic immorality of what Starlight did, and she's even praised by Celestia, Luna and Twilight for doing it at the end of the episode. Also, while I can't really make a good case that Celestia's and Luna's feud is out-of-character or unreasonable, it's rather jarring how petty the two of them are about it, and how Celestia and Luna go almost instantly from seeming to be bashful about admitting that they're hurting each other's feelings to bitterly bickering with each other.

-----

First, I'll talk about some lighter observations I have about Luna's day in Celestia's place.

To start, when Luna is posing for the picture with the schoolponies, Luna should only have to smile right before the picture is taken; in fact, I've heard that letting your face rest just before posing a smile for a picture will make it "fresher", anyway. Part of the issue might be the photographer, though; I would think he would give a countdown or sufficient warning before taking the picture, or at least take a few pictures to pick the best-looking one to run. I guess the photographer and the newspaper could have an agenda of making the Princesses look bad and embarrassing them whenever possible, but it would still be pretty callous of them to (apparently) make collateral damage of the earnest students' fundraiser in the process.

Speaking of that, because Luna scowled in the picture for the newspaper, the school apparently didn't raise enough funds to go on their field trip. But how did that happen? I would think that the fundraiser would be some event at which Luna would appear and participate, with that picture being taken only to commemorate the fundraising event afterward (and after the funds have already been raised). Was the picture itself somehow the fundraiser? Did the donors pull their donations after seeing the picture? Why would they do that? I don't understand what happened there.

I'm also not sure I understand what Luna's next task is supposed to be. Luna supposedly needs to "dispel rumors of timberwolves in the White Tail Woods" with some delegates of nearby towns, but how would Luna do that? Are Celestia/Luna privy to some information about the non-presence of timberwolves that the nearby town residents don't know? But after Luna declares in the "traditional royal Canterlot voice" that there are no timberwolves, the delegates just run away, screaming that there are definitely timberwolves. I get that Luna's doing that might have been a little intimidating, but wouldn't the delegates want to talk about Luna's proclamation, dispute it, see whether she has evidence for it, etc.? And furthermore, wouldn't doing that be their job as delegates to this meeting? I don't know why the delegates' response is just to run away, not to return.

Finally, what exactly was Luna's job concerning the mayors of Fillydelphia and Baltimare at the town hall? If the two cities (or the two mayors personally) have some dispute with each other, and not, say, the royal government over which Celestia and Luna preside, why is it Celestia's or Luna's job to intervene and help settle things? Couldn't such disputes be handled (and handled better) by an Equestrian court system or a trained third-party arbitrator or something like that? Are Celestia or Luna themselves the equivalent of the Equestrian Supreme Court? And as a side note, considering that the luncheon with the delegates didn't happen, wouldn't there be time for a bit of a break before the town hall, at least to eat the lunch that was probably already prepared?

-----

Now we come to the heavier stuff, and my biggest issue with the episode. Starlight impulsively uses her magic to switch Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks without their consent, and on top of that, the spell she casts is irreversible for the 24-hour period that it's in effect, which creates its own issues. Besides Starlight's worrying about her spell actually driving Celestia and Luna further apart, what if Celestia and Luna were not able to use each other's magic properly, and then there was some threat which Celestia and/or Luna would have to solve with the use of magic? However, the bigger issue to me is that, by nonconsensually switching Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks, Starlight yet again immorally violates what I believe is a fundamental human right to ownership and control of one's own body and mind.

To start off, I'll address one defense I've seen for Starlight's actions - that Starlight supposedly "had no choice" but to use her magic to force a solution. But Celestia and Luna had only been bickering back and forth for about a minute or so when Starlight cast her spell, and this was Starlight's first attempt to get them to talk to each other about their issues. If this misunderstanding between them has been festering for a while, it's not really surprising that it wouldn't be solved in a single short conversation. It might require letting the two of them cool off, talking to them more individually, and slowly getting each of them to concede that the other might have a point. Furthermore, Starlight could try to pick a better time for follow-up conversations with Luna in particular. It seems pretty obvious that the morning right after Luna gets "off her shift" isn't a good time to ask Luna to do things.

Tied into this is the idea planted by Twilight that the current fight between Celestia and Luna might lead to Luna turning into Nightmare Moon again. First, I'm not sure how much of a danger that really is. But at the time that Starlight cast her spell, I really don't see what was happening that would justify the drastic and immoral action of nonconsensually switching Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks. Again, it seems very premature to conclude that Celestia's and Luna's issues were completely unsolvable at that point, and I see no real evidence that Luna was on the verge of transforming into Nightmare Moon or anything, which would supposedly necessitate taking urgent extreme action. So, to reiterate, I don't see the case for Starlight's actions being excused because she "had no choice" - it seems to me that Starlight hadn't given her first attempt, or the idea of slowly bringing Celestia and Luna around, much of any chance to start working, and I don't see anything about the situation that would necessitate immediate drastic action.

Next, after switching Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks, Starlight might worry about a catastrophic result, but she only does so after the fact, and she doesn't ever seem to recognize the basic immorality of what she did, regardless of what the outcome ultimately is. When Celestia and Luna are obviously angry with Starlight and demand that she reverse the spell, Starlight doesn't acknowledge that what she did was wrong, but says she still thinks it's a good idea. And when Twilight is freaking out about Starlight switching Celestia and Luna's cutie marks, Starlight says with annoyance "I thought we moved past this. It was the right call!", followed by a slight "I hope". I see this as Starlight not conceding that what she did was immoral and reckless, but rather, still trying to argue that what she did was right. Starlight also says in her dream later that "going with my gut was the wrong call", but she apparently only believes that to the extent that she thinks that it led to Luna becoming Nightmare Moon (and possibly Celestia becoming Daybreaker). And after Celestia retrieves Luna and brings her to Starlight's dream, we see Starlight crying and saying "What was I thinking? I'm never going with my gut again!". When I saw Starlight say that, I couldn't help saying "Good! You shouldn't!". In seriousness, if Starlight's gut tells her to magically alter other ponies' bodies and minds without their consent, violating a bedrock principle of morality, then Starlight definitely should not be going with her gut, and should be looking into unlearning (or at least not acting on) instincts like that.

To add fuel to the fire, at the end of the episode, Celestia, Luna, and Twilight all unqualifiedly praise Starlight for switching Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks without their consent. Celestia tells Starlight outright that "it was the right call going with your gut" and waves away any (arguably insufficient) guilt Starlight has for coming "dangerously close to messing everything up", with tacit agreement from Luna. Luna tells Starlight that the map was wise to send her because "nopony else would have been so bold as to do what you did", while I can't help cynically thinking "because everyone else would recognize that what Starlight did was immoral and not do it?". Even Twilight, who knows that Starlight nonconsensually switched Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks, hugs Starlight and tells her "I knew you could do it, and I'm so, so, so, so, so proud of you!". There's no mention at all of the basic wrongness and immorality of what Starlight did, and even Starlight's token acknowledgement of the danger of what she did is downplayed and waved away. It's a shame, because the interactions here between Celestia and Luna, Twilight and Starlight, and Celestia and Luna and Starlight are heartwarming, but they're tainted by the lack of acknowledgement of or learned lessons about Starlight having used immoral means to solve the problem.

And my issues with how the end of the episode played out highlight my differences with another of the defenses I've seen for Starlight's actions - that they can be excused (or even considered right) because things turned out well in the end. This argument seems essentially to be saying that the ends justify the means. But I don't believe that the end of Celestia and Luna making up justifies Starlight's means to achieve that, and perhaps an analogous example might illustrate why not. Say X and Y are at a party, but X doesn't seem to be having much fun, so, unbeknownst to X, Y slips some drugs into X's drink. Even if X goes on to have a better time and recovers from the drugs later, I would think that we should still consider it immoral to give people mind-altering drugs in their food/drinks without their consent, and people shouldn't be praised for doing that. Similarly, even though Starlight's cutie mark-switching spell might have had a positive outcome this time, I still think that altering others' physical/mental states without their consent is immoral in itself, and should not be praised and encouraged. I don't want to live in a society in which other people feel justified in intruding upon my body and mind without my consent because they believe that it'll be good for me or that a positive outcome will result.

Furthermore, I think Starlight's behavior in this episode, and the way it was treated, have a significant impact on Starlight's characterization and role in the show going forward. One of the defenses of Starlight in general that I've often seen is that Starlight's reckless and immoral use of magic to solve problems, including altering the bodies and minds of others, is ultimately a temporary thing. By this argument, Starlight is just reforming very slowly and making a lot of mistakes along the way - we can't expect her to do a 180 overnight, etc. But, if this episode (along with others) is any indication, Starlight's reckless and immoral use of magic is here to stay; it has become Starlight's M.O., what she's expected and even called upon to do. And since I have profound moral disagreements with how Starlight has often used her magic, that probably imposes a fairly low ceiling on how much I can like or relate to Starlight's character (in addition to other issues I have with her characterization).

To conclude this section, for as much as I've written about the problems I have with it, it doesn't even really seem like Starlight's switching of Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks is essential to making the episode work. As far as I can tell, none of the things Luna does in Celestia's place require Celestia's cutie mark or magic specifically. And while the episode states that only Luna's magic works in the dream realm, as far as I know, that wasn't set in stone prior to this episode. The main point is to get Celestia and Luna to do each other's jobs and discover the difficulties of doing them. Then the dilemma would be how to get Celestia and Luna to start doing each other's jobs in the first place. Funnily enough, the two of them were convinced to do each other's jobs fairly easily after their cutie marks were switched, even when they wouldn't necessarily be required to do that, so I wonder how hard it would have been to find a way to get the two of them to go along with it using consensual means. I even saw a suggestion that Celestia and Luna could be convinced, or come up with the idea themselves, to switch their cutie marks voluntarily, which would mitigate many of the issues I detailed above.

-----

One other major thing that I'll mention is that the existence of Daybreaker and the arguments she makes bring up a legitimate point that has kind of lurked in the background of the characterization of Celestia and Luna. If Celestia and Luna are so powerful, and if Equestria is (or was) entirely dependent on them to raise the sun and moon, to protect Equestria from big threats, and any other essential duties, then what is there to stop Celestia and Luna from abusing their power? What would prevent Celestia and/or Luna from, say, refusing to raise the sun (which could ultimately lead to mass starvation), or refusing to protect Equestria from the latest threat, or even threatening Equestrians themselves, unless the residents of Equestria fulfill some list of their demands? Do the residents of Equestria have any other means to raise the sun, other than the power of Celestia and Luna, if the two of them refuse to do so, or even if the two of them are incapacitated? Would Equestrians be able to defend themselves if Celestia and Luna turned their magical power on them, or again, if there's some big threat and the alicorns are incapacitated? When I think about it, it seems downright scary that Equestrians seem to be dependent on Celestia's and Luna's goodwill, and ability to fend off threats, for their survival and to stop the two of them from abusing their power like that.

Now for the rest of my miscellaneous observations:

It is mysterious why the Cutie Map called Starlight, given that the map first appeared when the Mane Six all sat in their thrones, and the map is in the castle which spawned from the Tree of Harmony and the Chest of Harmony. So the map would seem to be connected only to the Mane Six, who are the bearers of the Elements of Harmony. Did Starlight, in helping to fix the map back in "Spice Up Your Life", somehow get herself on the "call list" of the Cutie Map?

Starlight doesn't seem much concerned about table manners at the breakfast table with Celestia, opening her mouth wide, taking bites big enough to fill her cheeks, and leaving almost no time between bites.

Why does Celestia just throw away the pancakes she made for Luna? I'm sure someone would eat them - maybe Starlight, or else one of the servants or castle guards or somebody.

Of course, if Luna has been consistent in never eating the breakfasts Celestia makes for her, I'd think that Celestia would stop bothering at some point. Had Celestia stopped before, but tried making pancakes for Luna again because Celestia thought Luna might actually sit down to breakfast with a guest (i.e., Starlight) present?

Does the lavender Luna hangs every night really wilt within a day? Would it last longer if it were maintained a bit better?

Also, is it really worthwhile for Luna to hang lavender in the Great Hall (or whatever its name is) every night, considering that (presumably) no one is actually sleeping in there? Sure, some visitors/servants/guards might smell the lavender while working or passing through, but I'm not sure how well that carries over to when they would sleep and dream later, and that might only affect a fairly small number of ponies, anyway. Could servants, say, be directed to place lavender in or near the castle bedrooms, or use lavender-scented cleaning agents?

Furthermore, Luna might hang the lavender every night, but some gardeners probably have the actual job of growing it, especially if Luna goes through that much of it every day. They probably deserve some recognition, too.

I'm not sure why Starlight becomes Luna's and Celestia's personal assistant for the day. Is it "punishment" for having switched their cutie marks? It doesn't seem like Starlight would be particularly helpful, since she's likely not familiar with Celestia's and Luna's daily duties and routines. Do either of them have actual assistants that would be of more help?

Starlight says in her dream that her switching Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks has only driven them apart, but on what basis is Starlight saying that? It didn't seem like Luna's day doing Celestia's job really drove Luna further apart from Celestia. Is that supposed to be only a product of Starlight's imagination, rather than the reality?

As Celestia's and Luna's original cutie marks return, we first see Celestia's cutie mark fade and Luna's cutie mark return to Luna, then we see Luna's cutie mark fade and Celestia's cutie mark return to Celestia. So was there a brief moment when both Celestia and Luna had Luna's cutie mark, and neither of them had Celestia's cutie mark?

Finally, as Celestia's and Luna's cutie marks are returning, Starlight puzzlingly says "wait, I'm not doing this". I'm not sure what that statement is supposed to mean. Did it just strike 24 hours after Starlight first cast her spell, and the spell is reversing itself? Or is Starlight's statement implying that the Cutie Map is reversing Starlight's spell because Starlight's mission was accomplished?

[Darthy Hooves 106]

This is one of the best MLP episodes EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Watched it twice so far!!!