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What are your thoughts on the number of redemptions in the show? not just of villains, but of antagonists too ("minor" opposition type characters like garble, trixie or diamond dogs who don't threaten all of equestria but still act as a minor villain)

Do you think there's too much redemption, not enough, ect?
Do you think the amount of redemptions has increased from s1 as the shows gone on, stayed the same, ect.?
 

Edited by Unlikeable Pony

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Well technially the show is supposed to tech posive morals like giving people a chance despite their past

(Honestly though I'm so happy Queen Chrysalis isn't reformed when she shows up it's always a good episode.)

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4 minutes ago, Maple Bat said:

Well technially the show is supposed to tech posive morals like giving people a chance despite their past

 

Being open to giving a chance doesn't mean handing out redemptions left and right though; Griffon the brush off was made by Faust with the lesson that you can't just redeem everyone by being nice (Albeit gilda came off way more sympathetically than she intended), and there was actually virtually no redemptions in S1 and S2-- After nightmare moon all the antagonists simply ran away or gave up, like the diamond dogs didn't reform they just wanted to get rid of rarity, and trixie ran away saying things weren't over. Likewise, Discord was outright beaten as was chrysalis and the changelings, no reform speeches given in S2, as the show recognized that oftentimes fighting really is the best course when facing people with negative desires.

 

Not saying that their should never be a redemption, but the moral becomes warped into naivete when overused.

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I think like the villain defeats, the redemptions get overused quite a lot especially when Twilight does it, when she does it, it's almost automatic and that it's never declined.

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Personally I prefer redemption over something harsh, unless I think the villain is completely irredeemable or would never change like Tirek. Redemption is just a nicer way to go about dealing with villains rather than killing someone like that. I've been blind to this kind of thing in the past but I've learned that there are some villains who would make a good turnaround and others that wouldn't. Plus redemption better fits the themes and tone of MLP.

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You can't give any of these villains or opposing character very hard punishments, because that would hurt the overly positive tone of the show.

Like, you will never see a villain being put into prison or tortured or whatever, because that would just kill the moral and positivety of the show. Yes, it might be a bit naive. But at the same time, it's not the real world. We love to enter fantasy worlds like these to escape the cynical ways of reality.

That's atleast how i feel about this show and i wouldn't be surprised if Chrysalis will be redeemed this season, much to the dismay of some others.

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(edited)

Double post

Edited by TheGOAT

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Some things are inexcusable and I like a story where there are such characters. I think it is a good lesson to show fans that there are those knds of people and you can't change them.

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(edited)
58 minutes ago, Mesme Rize said:

You can't give any of these villains or opposing character very hard punishments, because that would hurt the overly positive tone of the show.

Like, you will never see a villain being put into prison or tortured or whatever, because that would just kill the moral and positivety of the show. Yes, it might be a bit naive. But at the same time, it's not the real world. We love to enter fantasy worlds like these to escape the cynical ways of reality.

That's atleast how i feel about this show and i wouldn't be surprised if Chrysalis will be redeemed this season, much to the dismay of some others.

You mean like blowing Sombra up? Or them actually putting Tirek into prison? Or turning Discord into stone?

The difference between them and let's say Starlight or Trixie is that the latter two are just normal ponies that have large ambitions. They can be changed into one of the good side of  Equestria. The former three (yes even Discord; he hasn't been fully reformed) are born to be evil and cold-hearted and cannot be changed (Chrysalis too).

Edited by TheGOAT

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15 minutes ago, TheGOAT said:

You mean like blowing Sombra up? Or them actually putting Tirek into prison? Or turning Discord into stone?

The difference between them and let's say Starlight or Trixie is that the latter two are just normal ponies that have large ambitions. They can be changed into one of the good side of  Equestria. The former three (yes even Discord; he hasn't been fully reformed) are born to be evil and cold-hearted and cannot be changed (Chrysalis too).

Discord has been fully reformed after Tirek.

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8 minutes ago, Hebbocake said:

Discord has been fully reformed after Tirek.

Uh even in his standalone episodes he hasn't been fully reformed. And he shouldn't be. He's still the cynical master of chaos. That's like saying Batman has fully reformed Joker.

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Just now, TheGOAT said:

Uh even in his standalone episodes he hasn't been fully reformed. And he shouldn't be. He's still the cynical master of chaos. That's like saying Batman has fully reformed Joker.

There's a different between being a general asshole and being reformed. He is reformed, just still a major dick. 

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Starlight Glimmer was the last straw for me for villain reformations in FIM.

I really, really, really don't want to see anymore at this point in time.

Especially Chrysalis, seeing how she has literally shown zero sympathetic/redeeming qualities, and has invaded Equestria multiple times at this point.

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(edited)
Spoiler

I believe it is a good thing that there are many villains who have traveled another way, but I think there are some characters who always should stay rival or villain. Like Lightning Dust. I want her to stay a rival of Rainbow.

Also do I want new characters or Equestria Girls characters, like Juniper Montage. I think she would be a great rival for one of the mane 7. :orly: Maybe can uses a magic item to get what she wanted like her mirror or maybe just a crystal. 

 

Edited by Hierok

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The show is about friendship , forgiveness, after all... but yeah, I think they really overused it. I mean, I'm not talking about torturing the villain, but stopping him/her can be done by putting the villain into prison; not torture, it's not a light punishement as well, but too much redemption kills the vibe of having a villain, because we know that at one time, the villain will become good. Plus, we have Tirek in prison; why not the others?

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I love reformations, and I do hope they reform Chrysalis. I don't really see why others wouldn't want it. She can be redeemed, and had a reason for her attacks. she just doesn't know what to do at the moment, and I know she will become good later most likely.

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14 minutes ago, Foxy Socks said:

I love reformations, and I do hope they reform Chrysalis. I don't really see why others wouldn't want it. She can be redeemed, and had a reason for her attacks. she just doesn't know what to do at the moment, and I know she will become good later most likely.

I will honestly search for a table to flip if that happens.

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4 hours ago, Xeltor said:

The show is about friendship , forgiveness, after all... but yeah, I think they really overused it. I mean, I'm not talking about torturing the villain, but stopping him/her can be done by putting the villain into prison; not torture, it's not a light punishement as well, but too much redemption kills the vibe of having a villain, because we know that at one time, the villain will become good. Plus, we have Tirek in prison; why not the others?

Yeah the show also taught us that no matter that if you try hard enough you could be friends with ANYBODY that's not a villain. I'm trying to be friends with alot of people I meet and some don't want that, so does that mean they're villains? :P 

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1 hour ago, Hebbocake said:

I will honestly search for a table to flip if that happens.

How come? I think she would be wonderful redeemed. She seems like she needs help to me.

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5 hours ago, Hierok said:
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I believe it is a good thing that there are many villains who have traveled another way, but I think there are some characters who always should stay rival or villain. Like Lightning Dust. I want her to stay a rival of Rainbow.

Also do I want new characters or Equestria Girls characters, like Juniper Montage. I think she would be a great rival for one of the mane 7. :orly: Maybe can uses a magic item to get what she wanted like her mirror or maybe just a crystal. 

 

Juniper kind of went the whole reform route in the last one though :P And given how they reformed the shadowbolts hardcore in the first one despite them being pretty douchey in their actions and motivations, I doubt we'll get any good rivals in the future, sadly >.<

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7 minutes ago, Foxy Socks said:

How come? I think she would be wonderful redeemed. She seems like she needs help to me.

She's just not a character that's good or interesting if redeemed. I already shudder from thinking about a reformed Tirek.

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Personally i don't see the big deal, it is not like there have been that many.. just two that I officially count. (others may see if differently i suppose)

Those being Discord and Starlight. I don't watch EQG so can't comment there. We can count Sombra if you include the comics. That would make 3.

I do not consider Luna a redemption, nor Trixie or Gilda since I never saw them as evil, just jealous or petty. I also would not count characters that just have miserable personalities or douchy character flaws as "redeemed" if they stop being miserable douchy jerks. I.E. Lightning Dust, Suri, Wind Rider, Garble, 

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Gonna link this thread .... DAMNIT

 

Sorry the character counter overlay got in the way. Where was I? Oh yeah. This topic delves into the reasons I disagree with the idea of 'too many redemptions'. It also has the benefit of having both a Criminal Justice professional and my late wife (A PsyD holding clinician) discussing it in detail. 

The number is not an issue with me. It's how they are redeemed, and how much of their old traits are allowed to be retained. I admit they made some minor mistakes with Starlight's redemption (also with Sunset), but I'm fine with where they both stand now. 

 

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Someone on ponychan posted a thread similiar to this, and thoguht I'd link a quote about it:

In the official guidebook My Little Pony: The Elements of Harmony, Meghan McCarthy stated this about Discord regarding his reformation:

"I don't think I'd want to reform all of our villains. I don't think that would be realistic. No matter how hard you try, some people (or evil alicorns) just aren't going to change their ways. But for a character like Discord, 'reforming' him allows us to tell more stories with his character. He gets to be the not-always-reliable ally instead of the known enemy."

This rather well highlights a big issue with reforming so many characters: its unrealistic. Having the show resort to reforming villains instead of beating them goes into the realm of naivete and DEVALUSES the message of friendship by treating it in an unrealistic "silver bullet" manner.

From a narrative point of view, it also hurts the show: antagonists are a spice that help to keep a show and narrative working well. It provides for more plots, and interesting ways to conclude things: when the way that an episode can end can be a fight, or tricking them, or whatnot, it keeps the options open. but when you KNOW that its just going to boil down to "Give a speech, everyone becomes friends", you kill the suspense and anticipation of plots, because EVERYTHING is just going to boil down to the exact same conclusion, every single time.

Plus, whether or not you think its "good" doesn't mean that its ENJOYABLE for everything to always just end in the antagonists turning good: Look at gauntlet of fire: Its just SO cathartic to see Garble get the crap pummeled out of him by the obstacles over and OVER again, because seeing a villain get punished is ENJOYABLE. Evil being punished is not "wrong", its an often neccessary aspect of social function after all: if there's no repercussions for wrongful actions, it encourages doing evil since redemption is easy. If Garble hadn't been utterly humiliated and gotten punched around, but had just shaken their hands and said "We're friends now!", I guarantee that Episode would not have been as beloved as it is. We as a species Desire to see wrongdoers get their  comeuppance: and once more, so long as its not EXCESSIVE, there's nothing wrong with punishment of evil occuring either.

 

2 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

Personally i don't see the big deal, it is not like there have been that many.. just two that I officially count. (others may see if differently i suppose)

There's the changeling race as well.

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