too many redemptions in the show?

[Firedog 320]

I mean I don't really like the amount of redemption happening. 

It's a bit much.

 

I don't think it is really bad on more "morally justified" characters. By this I mean, the character thinks they are morally justified in doing what they are doing. This would include characters like, Starlight, Trixie, Diamond Tiara, and maybe Discord. But on characters that are straight out evil demons that don't care about ponies emotions shouldn't get redeemed.

______________________________________________________________________________

 

However the show is called "Friendship is magic". so I suppose you can justifiy redeeming any character by saying it was a magical event that transformed them.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Firedog

[GrimGrimoire 4,970]

27 minutes ago, Unlikeable Pony said:

There's the changeling race as well.

That is stretching it for me really. Just like Thorax, who is to say how the individuals in the changeling kingdom felt. At the end of the day they were following Chrysalis whom they felt had their best interests at heart.... after all they fed upon love not to be malicious, so much as to survive it would seem... Chrysalis misused that need and deceived them for her own benefit, and as such she was the real culprit. I do not consider them a true redemption in the manner we are discussing since I see them following a leader who offers them salvation through lies and trickery. It is not like they had people beating down their doors to get to know them and help them... no matter what they individually were like, it seems the rest of Equestria was like OMG! A CHANGELING! DESTROY IT BEFORE IT EATS YOU!

I am glad Chrysalis was not reformed though.... she is a much more interesting villain.

[Steve Piranha 28,770]

It's not how many they are reformed, it's how increasingly simplified it's becoming. Hell, at this point I'm not ruling out Chrysy and Tirek being reformed  

[Le Trotteur Sauvage 13,049]

17 hours ago, Unlikeable Pony said:

Do you think there's too much redemption, not enough, ect?

I Remember an old thread whi was kinda asking the same question. Ans all the reqpond were clear, this show is about making friend so you have to reform/redempt everyone. Plus it's for little girl so villain aren't supposed ti stay bad very long...

But if you ask me YES there is too much reforming, villain are nearly as important as heroes and this show is killing every villain to transform them into friends !

It sometime bother me, I wan't a real villain !

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

43 minutes ago, GrimGrimoire said:

 after all they fed upon love not to be malicious, so much as to survive it would seem.

I disagree though; the body language of the changelings, laughing and whatnot when they were engaged in villainy (like the group in twilight's castle in to where and back again, to say nothing of their actions in the comics) indicates that they didn't just do it for Survival, they ENJOYED being evil d***s. they didn't ever give off an air of tragic monsters until the reformation bit at the end.

it just strikes me as if the Dark eldar of 40k suddenly started being 100% good and had their enjoyment of their actions swept under the rug as just "survival" instead of enjoying their lifestyles as well.

 

27 minutes ago, Trotteur Funeste said:

. Plus it's for little girl so villain aren't supposed ti stay bad very long...

That kind of logic is what faust was fighting against when she made the show though; I remember one thing she really disliked in "traditional" girls shows was how the villains would always end up becoming best friends at the drop of a hat instead of coming into real conflict with the heroes.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Unlikeable Pony

[Thrond 3,257]

Most of the best episodes of this show don't even have a villain. So the argument that "villains are important" holds little water for me. 

I like reformations for two reasons. First, it's a rehabilitation over punishment ideology which, even at its most naive, is something I'd like to see more of in the world. I think the idea that people should be allowed to see the error of their ways and then be given a second chance is simply a good message. Second, it allows for more complex villains who aren't evil just because they're evil. Starlight had a vision. Trixie and Gilda weren't the nicest people, but they weren't evil. The changelings were just following orders. Diamond Tiara was taking out her own personal issues on others. Discord is the exception, but he never really stopped being a jerk.

I wouldn't want this from Chrysalis, firstly because I find the idea that she's well-intentioned to be inconsistent with her depiction in the show, and secondly because having an outright jerk learn to accept friendship, while heartwearming, would feel a little like a rehash of how Discord would reformed. The same is true of Suri or Wind Rider, but I find Lightning Dust a little more ambiguous, as she never meant to hurt anyone. If anyone is next to be reformed, I'd call for her, because she fulfils the criteria which make me like reformations.

In any case, it's worth nothing that reformations were predominantly a season 5 thing. Aside from the changelings, which I will never understand the issue with, season 6 didn't really have any, and it had unreformed antagonists in the form of Garble, Zesty Gourmand, Gladmane, and Chrysalis. Personally, I found those episodes with clear villains (excepting the finale) to be relatively uninspired, and frankly, I think the simplicity of their antagonists had a lot to do with that. But they do serve as a counterbalance for the "reformation issue" which you lot seem to think exists, no? So I don't really think there's too many redemptions.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

The path of the irredeemable is DEATH , look at Sombra and the Goat Cyclop that rot in the pit, i wonder how many dangerous creatures in tartarus that wont see the day ;). I am hungry to see more villain asskickings...

...

Seriously, i dont think there are too many reformations but i think there are ENOUGH of them. However, power-hungry villains like Tirek is freaking lame, i hope the writers can come up with better villains than Tirek (i am looking at you Stormking). 

Random: The next villain should be Eldritch Horror level if they want to be an irredeemable, because we see results with those kind of them in this show. 

[Marimo 555]

I think it may tie in with the need for some character development. This is a show that is driven by characters and their development, so the key to defeating a major enemy should be character based. This is easy early on when the characters are new and have much to learn. Twilight learns about friendship and that defeats NMM, or Twilight and the others learn that friendships aren't easy but they're worth fighting for which helps them to defeat Discord and his brainwashing, or Twilight choosing to prioritize saving the Empire and lets Spike help bring back the Crystal Heart despite it meaning failing the test.

The longer the show goes on, the harder it is to have these characters who have been learning lessons for seasons learn or develop in some way that ties into defeating a major villain, so the show has shifted to teaching others. The keys were about reaching others the elements of harmony, Starlight's village were shown the truth and stopped her from getting away with the mane six cutie marks, Sunburst actually did have value despite his failures. And sometimes the one to develop is the villain themselves, especially if written in a way where the heroes are in such a position where if they can't overcome the villain then they need to make the villain defeat themselves, like getting Starlight to stop trying to mess up time, or having the changelings themselves revolt by having them find a different way to feel full.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Marimo

[BlinkZ 1,151]

This is Freindship is magic ,not dragon ball Z stop expecting epic villains with overarching schems that span a season..it just isn't FIM formula never has been.

if you have to use the "no everyone your friend card" well the Cranky episode is pretyt much that lesson just not blunt about it.

[Marimo 555]

1 hour ago, BlinkZ said:

if you have to use the "no everyone your friend card" well the Cranky episode is pretyt much that lesson just not blunt about it.

But that still wound up with Cranky becoming Pinkie's friend. She just had to go about it differently.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Marimo

[Steve Piranha 28,770]

20 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

 

Random: The next villain should be Eldritch Horror level if they want to be an irredeemable, because we see results with those kind of them in this show. 

Maybe, a being indifferent and callous by nature makes a perfect villain to be killed off, but they are hardly interesting villains

21 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

 

In any case, it's worth nothing that reformations were predominantly a season 5 thing. Aside from the changelings, which I will never understand the issue with, season 6 didn't really have any, and it had unreformed antagonists in the form of Garble, Zesty Gourmand, Gladmane, and Chrysalis. Personally, I found those episodes with clear villains (excepting the finale) to be relatively uninspired, and frankly, I think the simplicity of their antagonists had a lot to do with that. But they do serve as a counterbalance for the "reformation issue" which you lot seem to think exists, no? So I don't really think there's too many redemptions.

You forgot the Flim Flam bros. They were on the side of AJ and Flutters in their last appearance, but they quickly go back on being the scamming and dishonest douches  

[digit112 89]

Well it seems like one of the main themes of the show has become unrealized potential. It's all been about ponies who had amazing potential but didn't wield it properly. Because they didn't know how, or didn't want to, etc. So I feel like redemptions are a natural consequence of this ideal. It's the philosophy of the show, Fighting gets us nowhere, but if we choose to work together, we'll both be more powerful than ever before. That kind of reasoning.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

1 hour ago, Steve Piranha said:

Maybe, a being indifferent and callous by nature makes a perfect villain to be killed off, but they are hardly interesting villains

Agreed there. The villains we've had who've been "eldritch abomination" encroaching horrors  have been sombra and the windigos, and neither of them ranks very highly on the villain meter.

In order to have a villain be a proper villain they have to be a character-- hence usually when you have an eldritch abomination threat, they usually introduce an underling to the eldritch abomination in order to fill the void, like Porky to Gigyas, or the high priest cultist to the eldritch abomination.

Otherwise, you need to humanize the eldritch abomination to the point that it stops really being an unknowable being and starts being a character.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

4 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

Maybe, a being indifferent and callous by nature makes a perfect villain to be killed off, but they are hardly interesting villains

Eldritch Horrors dont need characters, they just need to be THREATNING and Mysterious, that's their purposes. As a fan of Lovecraftian Horrors, i would love to see the true terrifying cosmic villain

Random: If they reference some Lovecraft entities in the show, i will scream happily xD

 

[Shrug 9,922]

At some point I do think that there is such a thing as too many, but generally it should the quality of the redemption. I just really hope they don't redeem Queen Crysilis. She has just been shown to be way too evil for a redemption to make sense.

[CastletonSnob 3,025]

I still say Starlight should kill Chrysalis. Like, vaporize her with a magic blast. 

[cmarston1 5,951]

I get that the show's title is Friendship is Magic and all and that it is targeted for children, but I don't think having all of the villains being reformed is a good thing for the show to have.

In fact it teaches kids the dangerous message that literally everyone no matter how morally bankrupt and evil, can be reasoned with, even if they are cruel tyrants who have invaded the country multiple times and have tried to kill you.

Even Steven Universe, another popular cartoon airing on a children's network, with themes of love and friendship has shown that not everyone can be reasoned with and that friendship is the magical key that can save the day all the time.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,274]

I have always had this viewpoint; For a show where the basis is friendship, redemptions don't bother me. A big part of friendship is the ability to forgive and the ability stop being bad, both of those fit into redemption, which fits into the theme of the show. Plus, not every villain has had a redemption, so its not like it is something that is guaranteed outright. 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

I mean no. Sure, I don't like reformations, but it is a kids show about ponies and friendship, don't expect harsh punishments. THe fact that Chrysalis promised such a harsh revenge was crazy enough.

[blackstarraven 142]

Well let's see....

 

Luna.. Driven mad... Clearly evil in mad form... fixed.. redemption.

Trixie... Not really evil.. but gets redemption.

Gilda. Not evil... Redemption.

Discord. Not really evil. just cruel because of lack of empathy... Redemption. Twice...

Sombra.... ~clears throat~ Evil and.. they killed him...

TRek... ~nots~ Imprisonment....

Crystalis... They are clearly working on it.

 

But to be fair, it seams like the theme is simply that you get redemption if you actually evil.. and don't have a real choice in the matter...

Even in EG...

 

Sunset.. maybe evil.. but pretty low on the evil table.

The Dazzlings... that's literally a dietary need. (Kind of like changelings) Evil but not 100% there fault.

Sci-Twi... poor thing.. not even remotely evil.. And her jerk-flank principle didn't even get redemption and she was just being a jerk....

[Xeltor23 704]

On 01/06/2017 at 7:48 PM, MegaSean45 said:

Yeah the show also taught us that no matter that if you try hard enough you could be friends with ANYBODY that's not a villain. I'm trying to be friends with alot of people I meet and some don't want that, so does that mean they're villains?  

Well, we're talking about villains here, not people who don't want to be friends; Maud didn't become a friend with any member of the Mane 6 in the beggining (not counting Pinkie), and that doesn't make her a villain. I actually don't see how your response adds something, we're talking about villains

[ManaMinori 4,143]

On 6/5/2017 at 8:51 AM, cmarston1 said:

I get that the show's title is Friendship is Magic and all and that it is targeted for children, but I don't think having all of the villains being reformed is a good thing for the show to have.

In fact it teaches kids the dangerous message that literally everyone no matter how morally bankrupt and evil, can be reasoned with, even if they are cruel tyrants who have invaded the country multiple times and have tried to kill you.

Even Steven Universe, another popular cartoon airing on a children's network, with themes of love and friendship has shown that not everyone can be reasoned with and that friendship is the magical key that can save the day all the time.

Sombra and Tirek weren't reformed. The Sirens weren't reformed. Chrysalis isn't. Principal Cinch wasn't befriended. Starlight still really isn't reformed.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Nightmare Muffin

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:51 AM, cmarston1 said:

I get that the show's title is Friendship is Magic and all and that it is targeted for children, but I don't think having all of the villains being reformed is a good thing for the show to have.

In fact it teaches kids the dangerous message that literally everyone no matter how morally bankrupt and evil, can be reasoned with, even if they are cruel tyrants who have invaded the country multiple times and have tried to kill you.

Even Steven Universe, another popular cartoon airing on a children's network, with themes of love and friendship has shown that not everyone can be reasoned with and that friendship is the magical key that can save the day all the time.

My big issue is that when you befriend everyone, you limit the villains and get crappy villains.
Specifically, if you're planning on redeeming everyone and having them be good friends with the characters, you can't have them do anything TOO villainous or else the audience won't accept their Heel face turn, and you end up having the villains all be given Freudian excuses of "Oh, they aren't TRULY evil just they had a bad childhood!" or "They weren't TRULY evil they were insane due to ANOTHER magical force!"
A good example of this is in EQG: the last 3 villains have all just been "they're insane due to magic, they're not in control of their actions!", and it leads to REALLY weak villains (Juniper is utterly horrible as a villain for example)

 

Oftentimes to have a really good villain, you need them to be willing to engage in really "good" villainy.

[blackstarraven 142]

It should also be pointed out that some things CAN be done well, and others can't.

The IDW comic (Which is pretty hit or miss, great some times, bla others)
Actually did a really good job at a Sombra story. It was honestly more then good enough to be a season final if handled well in the show.

What the show REALLY could use is more long term episode planning.

Building up some stuff would do a lot to make it work better.

I like that they are doing that with startlght at least. It was not just a BAM she's good at being friends thing. She still kind of sucks at it in a lot of ways.

[RulesofRarity 489]

Personally, I don't have problems with redemptions(on a show like this) as long as it's done correctly.