Would you let you or your loved ones have a back-up clone?

[Brony Number 42 9,899]

27 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Yeah, but what about the soul? It may have the memories of the deceased person, but not their soul. The clone would have a soul of it's own, and let's not get started once they figure out that the memories of the passed person are not it's own, and shit will go over the edge at various degrees if it start to rebel 

I don't know this "soul" You speak of. Why would a person rebel if they learned they were a clone? What would they rebel against and what would they gain?

[Steve Piranha 28,751]

Just now, BronyNumber42 said:

I don't know this "soul" You speak of. Why would a person rebel if they learned they were a clone? What would they rebel against and what would they gain?

I don't think being a clone is the problem, problem is being forced a role from birth of replacing another person. They may follow their role without question, but they may not. They are still people, you can't expect to kill a person's free will just because you assign them a role and expectations you want them to follow from birth

[Vulcan 3,254]

21 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

I don't think being a clone is the problem, problem is being forced a role from birth of replacing another person. They may follow their role without question, but they may not. They are still people, you can't expect to kill a person's free will just because you assign them a role and expectations you want them to follow from birth

I don't think they'd even need to be forced into it, since they do have the memories and mind of the original, It's likely they'd just do it voluntarily. I mean, If I suddenly woke up one day in some weird future tanning bed and someone came up to me telling me I was a clone, They need not force me to go back to what I feel is my normal life. 

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

Christ, that would be horrible for the clone. 

I mean, imagine going to sleep one night only to wake up and discover that your entire life has been nothing but someone else's memories. And that you are nothing but a replacement. That'd be freaking terrifying. 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

One of the scifi comic strips is discussing this same question this week - http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-06-13

[Vulcan 3,254]

10 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

 

One of the scifi comic strips is discussing this same question this week - http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-06-13

 

 

I haven't to admit...This was really good XD 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

1 minute ago, Coffee said:

I haven't to admit...This was really good XD 

It is unusual I have to select from schlock to make a geeky point well - it's usually XKCD or SMBC

[Steve Piranha 28,751]

1 hour ago, Coffee said:

I don't think they'd even need to be forced into it, since they do have the memories and mind of the original, It's likely they'd just do it voluntarily. I mean, If I suddenly woke up one day in some weird future tanning bed and someone came up to me telling me I was a clone, They need not force me to go back to what I feel is my normal life. 

Yes, they are. From birth they are only made to live another's life altogether from birth, and no choice. You won't be implanting the deceased's personality into his clone, you'd be giving the clone artificial memories 

[Vulcan 3,254]

26 minutes ago, Yamet said:

Christ, that would be horrible for the clone. 

I mean, imagine going to sleep one night only to wake up and discover that your entire life has been nothing but someone else's memories. And that you are nothing but a replacement. That'd be freaking terrifying. 

A bit grim, but if it were me , I'd actually be kind of relieved that I wasn't the first guy. .-.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Coffee
typo

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

Just now, Coffee said:

I bit grim, but if it were me , I'd actually be kind of relieved that I wasn't the first guy. .-.

But wouldn't you feel a bit betrayed knowing that everything in you thought was your life was actually someone else's? 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Yamet

[Vulcan 3,254]

3 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Yes, they are. From birth they are only made to live another's life altogether from birth, and no choice. You won't be implanting the deceased's personality into his clone, you'd be giving the clone artificial memories 

Ah I see now! and yeah that does sound like an ethical gray area o_o 

(Though now that I think about it, The ethics of implanted or omitted memories, even if done voluntarily or for medical reasons would make for an interesting topic, On one hand it could certainly help PTSD and trauma patients...but It just wouldn't be real...Would fake good memories be better that horrible real ones? ...eh...I'm rambling -_-)

[Roughshod 719]

6 hours ago, BronyNumber42 said:

It seems the objections to the idea are based on the notion that the clone would not have the same memories. That it would be grown from a tube and hyper aged. But cloning, for the purposes discussed, would be pointless of it couldn't have the same memories.

I understand that the clone in this scenario would have the memories and I assumed that it would also be grown at an accelerated rate from a tube or whatever place would suffice.

6 hours ago, BronyNumber42 said:

There was a Star Trek Enterprise episode where they did this.

This isn't Star Trek. We don't have such technological capabilities, if they are even feasible to begin with. You've introduced a new element to the discussion that wasn't part of the original premise. That's fine, but it changes the nature of the debate to something that I and others here weren't basing our points on. I was arguing from the position relating to technologies the present or the foreseeable future, since cloning is possible albeit imperfect, not those from a science fiction series set in the 23rd century.

6 hours ago, BronyNumber42 said:

A duplicate that was an exact, transporter copy, as opposed to a tube grown copy, would be you. It is you just as much as if you used the transporter. People can debate whether or not a transporter you is you, but at the end of the day nobody cares.

Uh, yeah... I would care. If I had decided to clone myself, or found out I was a clone, that would be pretty important in my view. And no, it isn't me. Not from my perspective. Once my physical matter is disintegrated I'm killed instantly, even if it is reassembled my consciousness is gone. Living matter is a bit different from inanimate objects.

7 hours ago, BronyNumber42 said:

I'm not talking about a situation where you super age a child by 40 years in 1 week and implant memories into his brain. I think that would be wrong.

Well that's the only way we've got at the moment. Actually, the super aging process probably isn't even practicable at this point which means in order to have a true clone ready at a moments notice, you'd have to grow it from the moment of the original's conception and keep it in stasis(so as to not form it's own conflicting memories), pumped with transferred memories until it's ready for use. In other words, a slave. Actually less than that, a product.

Very ethical proposition you've got there.

 

 

[Vulcan 3,254]

10 minutes ago, Yamet said:

But wouldn't you feel a bit betrayed knowing that everything in you thought was your life was actually someone else's? 

Not really, I mean, I'd just think of the first guy as well...Me no. 1 and I would just be Me no.2, I wouldn't feel like I'm living someone else's life because to me it'd just feel like...well...my life .-. 

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

He wouldn't be me, though; he'd essentially be my twin brother, Anti-Hero.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Anti-Villain

[Vulcan 3,254]

5 minutes ago, Roughshod said:

Well that's the only way we've got at the moment. Actually, the super aging process probably isn't even practicable at this point which means in order to have a true clone ready at a moments notice, you'd have to grow it from the moment of the original's conception and keep it in stasis(so as to not form it's own conflicting memories), pumped with transferred memories until it's ready for use. In other words, a slave. Actually less than that, a product.

In the circumstance of the original post, I made it that the duplicate is created in like a huge 3-d printeresque machine...afterall, I think we've already managed to use 3-d printers to create organs if I recall, so It wouldn't be too much of a stretch that some future could create a full human using the same technology with the memories already in tact. 

[Roughshod 719]

24 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Yes, they are. From birth they are only made to live another's life altogether from birth, and no choice. You won't be implanting the deceased's personality into his clone, you'd be giving the clone artificial memories

Really puts into question what it means to be an individual human being, to have an 'identity'. None of us choose to be born, or have the parents and genes we do. Even much of our memories, while affected by some choices, are still also dependent on many factors we have no control over like our surroundings and the time we live in. But finding out you're just a replacement of someone who's died and meant to continue living so others won't have to deal with the reality of death could be earth-shattering to one's psyche. Or maybe not, depends on the person perhaps.

13 minutes ago, Coffee said:

In the circumstance of the original post, I made it that the duplicate is created in like a huge 3-d printeresque machine...afterall, I think we've already managed to use 3-d printers to create organs if I recall, so It wouldn't be too much of a stretch that some future could create a full human using the same technology with the memories already in tact. 

Like I said, a product.

But I guess at the end of the day we're all products built for the strict purpose of perpetuating ourselves.

[CypherHoof 26,479]

7 minutes ago, Coffee said:

In the circumstance of the original post, I made it that the duplicate is created in like a huge 3-d printeresque machine...afterall, I think we've already managed to use 3-d printers to create organs if I recall, so It wouldn't be too much of a stretch that some future could create a full human using the same technology with the memories already in tact. 

Would pretty much have to. A human brain starts out wired at random, with a LOT of neurons connected to a bunch of other neurons; the brain then learns which connections are useful and which aren't, and breaks the ones that aren't, leaving a unique configuration that would be required before any "backup" could be written back. (massive oversimplification of course, but accurate enough for this purpose)

[Brony Number 42 9,899]

49 minutes ago, Roughshod said:

Well that's the only way we've got at the moment. Actually, the super aging process probably isn't even practicable at this point which means in order to have a true clone ready at a moments notice, you'd have to grow it from the moment of the original's conception and keep it in stasis(so as to not form it's own conflicting memories), pumped with transferred memories until it's ready for use. In other words, a slave. Actually less than that, a product.

Very ethical proposition you've got there.

 

 

No, you constructed a scenario and attributed that to me. That's the proposition you made.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

57 minutes ago, Coffee said:

Not really, I mean, I'd just think of the first guy as well...Me no. 1 and I would just be Me no.2, I wouldn't feel like I'm living someone else's life because to me it'd just feel like...well...my life .-. 

But would it really be your life? I mean, it's not like you'd have any choice in how said life would look. You would have to face the consequences of every bad choice, every stupid decision, every mistake, that someone else made.
 

 

[Roughshod 719]

28 minutes ago, BronyNumber42 said:

No, you constructed a scenario and attributed that to me. That's the proposition you made.

I extrapolated from your position to the obvious conclusion of what you're advocating minus the fantastical conditions which aren't remotely feasible(presently speaking) and put it into realistic terms. You just don't want to own up to the hypothetical because you realize it makes you look bad and discredits your position.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Roughshod

[Vulcan 3,254]

6 minutes ago, Yamet said:

But would it really be your life? I mean, it's not like you'd have any choice in how said life would look. You would have to face the consequences of every bad choice, every stupid decision, every mistake, that someone else made.
 

 

That's a good point,but to me it wouldn't feel like they were someone else's choices... They would be my choices. 

It wouldn't be as different as having to wakeup every morning having to deal with the consequences that my past self has done. 

I'd consider either just extensions of me... I'd accept every mistake and every bad choice because having the memories, I know the rational and the reasoning behind all of them and having the same personality, I can symphatize. I wouldn't blame my past incarnation as much as I wouldn't blame my past self. 

[Brony Number 42 9,899]

9 minutes ago, Roughshod said:

I extrapolated from your position to the obvious conclusion of what you're advocating minus the fantastical conditions which aren't remotely feasible(presently speaking) and put it into realistic terms. You just don't want to own up to the hypothetical because you realize it makes you look bad and discredits your position.

Ah, in other words you made it up.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

13 minutes ago, Coffee said:

hat's a good point,but to me it wouldn't feel like they were someone else's choices... They would be my choices. 

It wouldn't be as different as having to wakeup every morning having to deal with the consequences that my past self has done.

Except that in one case, you actually did make said choice, and in the other you were simply implanted with the memory of making said choice.

13 minutes ago, Coffee said:

I'd consider either just extensions of me... I'd accept every mistake and every bad choice because having the memories, I know the rational and the reasoning behind all of them and having the same personality, I can symphatize

I fail to see your point. I mean, I know the rational and reasoning behind several of my friends and family's bad choices, and I can also sympathize with a lot of them. However, I'd still be very pissed if I was forced to face the consequences of their choice.  

Edited June 16, 2017 by Yamet

[GrimGrimoire 4,970]

 

I dunno... it is a really hard question with a lot of ethical stuff behind it. There is also the issue of it at the moment being science fiction. Cloning is happening right now as someone stated, but not to this level yet... and honestly it may not ever happen. I have no doubts we will be able to clone people, but memories... I dunno... and then there is of course consciousness itself which is even more iffy and in itself is debatable for many. I think if you grew an actual clone in a lab and implanted memories into it, it would be something we as a species would struggle with, since it would be you, but not in the eyes of some. I can see it being valuable for many, and of course you know many powerful people would go through with it, just to stay in power themselves. I think if it were to happen, it would be a shock to most people until a few generations later in which case it would be seen as perfectly normal and just something people do.As for myself, I find the idea a bit creepy and not something I would necessarily want to go through with. If I had a wife and children, perhaps... it would be something we as a family would have to discuss and go from there though. I could not make such a decision upon my own, and certainly not here like this as it stands now.

An older game on the Xbox (not a very good one) had the idea of memory or personalty chips. Your body is grown in a lab apparently, completely mindless and with nothing, and upon death, the chip is recovered and placed into this new clone body almost as if you were just doing a brain transplant or some such. It is still you, just in a new body apparently able to continue your mission, career, life or whatever. Apparently it was used in military affairs, but other than that, who knows... that was not the point of the game. But the first character apparently went through the process nine times. Kinda bad game, but I could actually see this sort of thing being of interest to the military in the future.

[Roughshod 719]

55 minutes ago, BronyNumber42 said:

Ah, in other words you made it up.

Yeppers! I just have this ZANY habit of thinking about things and coming to conclusions! It's so WACKY! 

 

51 minutes ago, Yamet said:

Except that in one case, you actually did make said choice, and in the other you were simply implanted with the memory of making said choice.

I fail to see your point. I mean, I know the rational and reasoning behind several of my friends and family's bad choices, and I can also sympathize with a lot of them. However, I'd still be very pissed if I was forced to face the consequences of their choice.  

This is an interesting point to consider as well. How much if any culpability does a clone have? What would be the legal parameters?