general media Broken/Clueless Aesops

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

I.e., any moral contradicted, mishandled, etc., by its actual story.

 

Kingdom Hearts:

 

Aesop: "Darkness isn't automatically bad, and Light isn't automatically good."

 

Problem: All the major problems so far have been Dark, and all the major solutions so far have been Light. And any rare Dark Is Not Evil examples tend to be more Light-leaning anyway, and any rare Light Is Not Good examples tend to be more Darkness-driven anyway.

 

Suggested Solution: Be more like Final Fantasy 3, dammit.

[Discordian 6,013]

But...Final Fantasy 3's final boss is literally a being of absolute darkness and you combat it with the light of the crystals.

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

8 minutes ago, Discordian said:

But...Final Fantasy 3's final boss is literally a being of absolute darkness and you combat it with the light of the crystals.

 

Yet the backstory had the Warriors Of Darkness having to do the same against absolute Light.

 

KH's backstory = just more "LIGHT GOOD; DARK BAD! OOGA-BOOGA-BOOGA!"

Edited July 23, 2017 by A.V.

[Discordian 6,013]

Just now, A.V. said:

 

Yet the backstory had the Warriors Of Dark having to do the same against absolute Light.

 

KH's backstory = just more "LIGHT GOOD, DARK BAD!"

Kingdom Hearts has never been absolute about it. The closest thing we get to it is that Xehanort readily uses the power of darkness...but so does Riku and Terra. Proven time and again to be nothing more than a tool and it's weakness in their hearts that allows them to succumb to evil influences that just so happen to be in the dark.

 

The games do heavily favor light but they've made it clear that this is partly thanks to superstition and partly due to past events proving how volatile the power of darkness is.

 

We still don't even know Xehanort's true intentions so we can't say with any certainty that his connection with the darkness is specifically evil.

[Megas 27,045]

Gonna go with an easy one

The Mysterious Mare Do Well - "A Hero doesn't brag", shortly before we had the same people who told that moral, well, bragging about how great MDW was....bragging about their own accomplishments at that

My Little Pony: Hypocrisy is Magic

Edited July 23, 2017 by Whompy Whomperson

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

10 minutes ago, Discordian said:

Kingdom Hearts has never been absolute about it. The closest thing we get to it is that Xehanort readily uses the power of darkness...but so does Riku and Terra. Proven time and again to be nothing more than a tool and it's weakness in their hearts that allows them to succumb to evil influences that just so happen to be in the dark.

 

The games do heavily favor light but they've made it clear that this is partly thanks to superstition and partly due to past events proving how volatile the power of darkness is.

 

We still don't even know Xehanort's true intentions so we can't say with any certainty that his connection with the darkness is specifically evil.

 

It's the series itself that should've convinced me... and so far, it's had quite the show-don't-tell problem (especially since, like I just said, Riku and Terra still favor the Light anyway).

 

IMO, Master Xehanort's been the worst guy for the job (i.e., "I'MMA USE DARKNESS FOR WIDESPREAD DESTRUCTION AS PART OF MY NONSENSICAL PLAN TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT IT!"); the closest we got was Xemnas back in KH2 (at least before DDD kicked in).

Edited July 23, 2017 by A.V.

[Discordian 6,013]

16 minutes ago, A.V. said:

 

It's the series itself that should've convinced me... and so far, it's had quite the show-don't-tell problem (especially since Riku and Terra still favor the Light anyway).

 

IMO, Master Xehanort's been the worst guy for the job (i.e., "I'MMA USE DARKNESS FOR WIDESPREAD DESTRUCTION AS PART OF MY NONSENSICAL PLAN TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT IT!"); the closest we got was Xemnas back in KH2 (at least before DDD kicked in).

The series doesn't have to spell everything out for you. Inferences can be made.

 

We don't actually know what Xehanort is trying to do. He uses the power of darkness because he sees power in it but in DDD he was also using the light, if indirectly. By gathering the thirteen darknesses and the seven lights he's trying to get to Kingdom Hearts. Why? We don't know. What we do know is Kingdom Hearts is often described as a source of absolute light. If he's so bent on using darkness why would he go for such a thing? Mark my words. Kingdom Hearts itself is a part of  his plan and if he truly has evil intentions then he is using light for those purposes just as Riku uses the darkness.

 

On the note of Riku, you saw what the darkness did to him on multiple occasions. Of course he prefers the light. Terra, also, has had terrible experiences where darkness was involved. It says nothing of darkness but the circumstances they were in.

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

Kingdom hearts is just meant to be confusing. Its goal is to enable plot mystery, from vagueness. When people are confused they try to pay more attention. And people get confused more when they are lied to. But because its incomprehensible in a way, it will enable constant attention. Yet it offers no substance.

Sorta like people who say stuff like vague flowery language so they sound smart or wise, when its really just nothing at all. Its a gimmick that appeals to youth because their frontal cortexes are just developing. You know its a gimmick because nobodies were gimmicks that weren't in the first game and were added on after the fact.

The only thing they have in common is stereotyping outsiders, like a cult.

They are 'heartless' (thus evil, so they can be killed). They are 'nobodies' (hence no one will miss them if they die). They don't have emotions like normal people, they are soul-less. Don't feel bad about attacking them.

Heartless specifically do have hearts, what a coincidence. Nobodies responding with emotion. What a coincidence.

I think the drawn out slow plot enables brain atrophy honestly. And some types of brain atrophy are associated with 'divine' experience studies show.

Then how they interact with Mulan level, and etc. Its so fake and impersonal its like Sora isn't even there, right? Like, you don't change anything no matter what you are powerless over destiny. Tarzan doesn't acknowledge your existence either, and the only reason why his nemesis interacted with you is because of a heartless. Aside from Pete and Maleficent and such, you basically do not exist.

Is it bad writing? Or are they appealing to the inner brainless child and just hope nostalgia carries you through for all their titles? Sorta how Disney when they first got their cable channel only aired reruns. Monopoly is all they do.

If I had a chance on a monopoly tho, tbh, I would take it. Its just too much incentive to decline.

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

17 minutes ago, Discordian said:

The series doesn't have to spell everything out for you. Inferences can be made.

 

Problem is, it's often criticized for going the "Inferences can be made" route way too often.

 

17 minutes ago, Discordian said:

We don't actually know what Xehanort is trying to do. He uses the power of darkness because he sees power in it but in DDD he was also using the light, if indirectly. By gathering the thirty darknesses and the seven lights he's trying to get to Kingdom Hearts. Why? We don't know. What we do know is Kingdom Hearts is often described as a source of absolute light. If he's so bent on using darkness why would he go for such a thing? Mark my words. Kingdom Hearts itself is a part of  his plan and if he truly has evil intentions the he is using light for those purposes just as Riku uses the darkness.

 

In his own Reports, he explicitly demonstrates a fading morality after intentionally exposing himself to Darkness:

 

"Our Master instructed us to don armor while traveling between worlds, so that we might shield ourselves from the darkness. But there, in the Lanes Between, I could feel the force of it—the power—and from then on, I forwent my armor's "protection." I had been told the darkness would devour me, but what terrors could it possibly hold, so long as I found the strength to control it?"

 

17 minutes ago, Discordian said:

On the note of Riku, you saw what the darkness did to him on multiple occasions. Of course he prefers the light. Terra, also, has had terrible experiences where darkness was involved. It says nothing of darkness but the circumstances they were in.

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by A.V.

[Steve Piranha 28,740]

1 minute ago, A.V. said:

 

Problem is, it's often criticized for going the "Inferences can be made" route way too often.

 

I don't think the frequency they do the inferences is the problem, the problem is the amount of them. For every plot element solved, they open 3 more, and this the inferences and vagueness become too much to follow 

 

You know, I have one old trope that is "The Complainer is Always Wrong". It's an aesop trope that basically says "the like-minded group is always right, but the one who thinks differently is always wrong", to the point of being a social pest. Also the listen to your elders all the time, and anything that discourage self thinking  . Fortunately, these are mostly dead tropes nowadays

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

23 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

I don't think the frequency they do the inferences is the problem, the problem is the amount of them. For every plot element solved, they open 3 more, and this the inferences and vagueness become too much to follow

 

Yeah, that's basically the gist of what I was trying to say.

Edited July 24, 2017 by A.V.

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

30 minutes ago, A.V. said:

 

Problem is, it's often criticized for going the "Inferences can be made" route way too often.

 

 

In his own Reports, he explicitly demonstrates a fading morality after intentionally exposing himself to Darkness:

 

"Our Master instructed us to don armor while traveling between worlds, so that we might shield ourselves from the darkness. But there, in the Lanes Between, I could feel the force of it—the power—and from then on, I forwent my armor's "protection." I had been told the darkness would devour me, but what terrors could it possibly hold, so long as I found the strength to control it?"

 

 

This symbology is easy enough to understand.

Just it has literally no substance. Its like the vaguest way possible to say something to express your emotions and motives etc, without exposing what you actually did. The game makes it as a loosely defined catch-all, like some vague music. We make our own meaning. This prevents political or personal conflicts with the audience entirely for their own internal struggles.

Personally, real fiction should be challenging. Not always though. But substance is just, idk. Alot faster.

But that speed causes a disgust to the audience like. Lets replace darkness with something. Like, I went through the tides of hatred wearing my insulated scuba gear to protect me. But I thought, what if I could focus my anger? There is potential here. I could gain anger magic power, and direct it if I have control.

But the thing is anger is faster to the brain stem than the prefrontal cortex (the logic regions) so its far easier to cave than people realize. Its not just a race its convincing the other person in a race who is twice as fast as you to stop and turn around, while they are still in shouting distance. Normally you can set up traps for this sprinter, but in said ocean that's not likely to happen. Its like eating berserker root. Then again that was used historically so, its possible.

15 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

I don't think the frequency they do the inferences is the problem, the problem is the amount of them. For every plot element solved, they open 3 more, and this the inferences and vagueness become too much to follow 

 

You know, I have one old trope that is "The Complainer is Always Wrong". It's an aesop trope that basically says "the like-minded group is always right, but the one who thinks differently is always wrong", to the point of being a social pest. Also the listen to your elders all the time, and anything that discourage self thinking  . Fortunately, these are mostly dead tropes nowadays

Its just like a cult. Lets start with a group that's knows nothing, a bunch of uneducated kids. So you tell them a 'fact'. That's all they know. They cannot make a line with their brains (connect the dots) because its only one point. They are lost like they are on an island.

Now you give a second dot, what do they do? The predictable conclusion, connect the dots. You lead them on a path. But when you introduce a third dot, suddenly they have three routes they can take not one. And if you let them travel that's six different direction you need to keep track of. In order to manipulate this cult into doing what you want, you need to prep for every single possibility. Which is easy, its only six things.

Each one is intentionally vague, or their options would increase faster. Having this symbology ensures they don't learn at a faster rate because its such a disconnected context only that context can easily answer itself. Hence the idea of the supernatural or divine being separate from reality. God can defy physics and logic and doesn't have to make sense, ever hear that before?

So the goal is to direct the sheep where you want them to go. You give them motivation, and set out what they want in front of them intentionally.

Is fear of the light or of the dark? Is then, killing heartless of the light or the dark? But then they have hearts? Its not of either, its of fear. It conditioned Sora to battle them then in other games you learn killing the heartless fueled that old guy's heart spell thing that is bad, right?

You were manipulated the whole game. Or that's how I see it anyways.

Which makes sense, sheep are easier for monopolies.

Then again connecting it back to the berserker root stuffs. Like, fear is of the darkness too then, right? Its impulsive. Sora never went to protect his family tho, he went in search of who knows what. So, he went off avoiding and abandoning his own family for the sake of a sad petty nostalgia kick and would attack others as being heartless or nobodies when they told him to stop.

Its the ultimate fanboy.

Edited July 23, 2017 by CuriUndersXeno

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

Um like, feel free to disagree with me tho. I don't like this awkward silence lol.

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

Naruto:

 

 

Aesop: "Revenge is bad."

 

Problem: Not always; I mean, Shikamaru's revenge against Hidan is treated as an unambiguously good thing.

 

Suggested Solution: Change it to "Revenge is bad if you go overboard with it like Sasuke does."

 

 

Aesop #2: "Stand up for yourself."

 

Problem: Every time some timid underdog (e.g., Hinata) finally does so, they tend to get near-killed (or even full-killed) in the process, thus forcing Naruto to come to the rescue anyway.

 

Suggested Solution: Stop reinforcing their insecurities, dammit.

Edited August 14, 2017 by A.V.

[cmarston1 5,951]

Feeling Pinkie Keen: If something doesn't make sense to you, than you should just accept it and not try to understand it

Over a Barrel: The Native Americans should have compromised and tried to share with the white settlers who would proceed to steal their land, kill them and exterminate their culture through many generations.

Pokemon: Losing is okay has turned into "You will never achieve any of your hopes and dreams no matter how hard you try"

[Steve Piranha 28,740]

On 7/24/2017 at 11:28 AM, A.V. said:

Naruto:

 

 

Aesop: "Revenge is bad."

 

Problem: Not always -- I mean, Shikamaru's revenge against Hidan is treated as an unambiguously good thing.

 

Suggested Solution: Change it to "Revenge is bad if you go overboard with it like Sasuke does."

That reminds me of another broken and hypocritical aesop in Valkyria Chronicles. Racism is bad unless it's towards the right race (sounds familiar  ). PLUS, it's bad to have a different talent than your peers. All of you must be equal in talent. This last one is prevalent in Japanese society, it's frowned upon to do something that makes you stand out, or be better than others. WORST OF ALL,  IT'S ALL HYPOCRITICAL WHEN WE SEE THE LIKES OF GOKU AND NARUTO SAVING THE DAY WHILE THE OTHERS ARE IN NO HOPE OF CATCHING UP  

4 hours ago, cmarston1 said:

Pokemon: Losing is okay has turned into "You will never achieve any of your hopes and dreams no matter how hard you try"

It's one of the reasons I got tired of Pokemon. For one part, we got the anime where Ash's hopes and dreams are doomed to be forever unfulfilled, and the games it's all over the place that it's ridiculous. Plus, with Ash's case it's worse because is this whole character's dream and his/her story ends cliche, while in reality, life can offer you more afterwards. It's very rare for a character's story to continue once their dreams are achieved. Few exceptions include:

-FiM: Twi became Princess of Friendship, but keeps studying and spreading friendship. Dashie is now a Wonderbolt, but keeps doing her daily life stuff in Poniville and going in adventures. What Rarity does after getting her dream Canterlot Boutique? GET ANOTHER MOTHERFUCKING BOUTIQUE OF COURSE . Will Fluttershy did Fluttershy stop getting episodes after building her animal sanctuary? Nope

-Legends of Magic: ALL of the plots so far are AFTER their legend

-Pokemon Adventures: Characters introduces, with dreams and goals and such, they reach it by the end of their arc and never be seen again... Oh, never mind, here they are in this Avengers Assemble arc. Ok, now this is the true good bye, it was nice to meet you guys :sniff: . :Two years later:, Oh, hi again Gold, there's another motherfucker using a legendary to make the world go bonkers. Wanna help? Not to mention their protagonist status is recovered in the remake arcs  

 

I had some broken aesops I wanted to share here, but forgot which ones 

 

 

[Steve Piranha 28,740]

Oh hey, I remember one big aesop that's way too broken: Rich kids are always bad, and poor ones are good. Rich kids bully the poorer, but not the other way around. Sure, my own experience agrees  

[Megas 27,045]

1 hour ago, Steve Piranha said:

Oh hey, I remember one big aesop that's way too broken: Rich kids are always bad, and poor ones are good. Rich kids bully the poorer, but not the other way around. Sure, my own experience agrees  

Oh c'mon, the trope made Kaiba exist so I can't hate it

x1000000 dead puppies

But in all seriousness, I do agree, so it's refreshing when some people make rich people the good guys for a change(Asami from Korra is a good example)

 

[Steve Piranha 28,740]

8 hours ago, Prowl said:

Oh c'mon, the trope made Kaiba exist so I can't hate it

x1000000 dead puppies

But in all seriousness, I do agree, so it's refreshing when some people make rich people the good guys for a change(Asami from Korra is a good example)

 

Nah, I think there's a decent amount of them. But I have yet to see the rich being bullied, and that happens in real life 

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

8 hours ago, Prowl said:

 

In the words of DashieXP, "Mah boi betta close dat mouf!"

[Steve Piranha 28,740]

One that's pretty recurring, and it pisses me off: It's better to be stupid than being intelligent. Smart characters normally get the short end of the stick  

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

On 2017-08-12 at 11:50 PM, Steve Piranha said:

One that's pretty recurring, and it pisses me off: It's better to be stupid than being intelligent. Smart characters normally get the short end of the stick  

Would you mind giving a few examples? Because in my experiences¸that's pretty rare. 

[Steve Piranha 28,740]

55 minutes ago, Yamet said:

Would you mind giving a few examples? Because in my experiences¸that's pretty rare. 

Really? I see smart kids getting bad stereotypes or unfit way too often  

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

Just now, Steve Piranha said:

Really? I see smart kids getting bad stereotypes or unfit way too often  

Other than that episode of the Simpsons where Homer removes a crayon from his brain I haven't noticed anything like that.