Choosing between Sunset and Starlight?

[Princess Book Horse 350]

I actually love both Starlight and Sunset equally. 

- Both add a great new perspective to the MLP franchise as a whole.

- Both are extremely interesting to watch whenever they are the focus.

- This made seeing them meet in "Mirror Magic" MUCH more satisfying.

However, there are a few things that I feel was better about one than the other.

- Starlight was a much better villain than Sunset.

- Starlight had a better backstory than Sunset. (Yeah, I know Starlight's backstory was rushed and not that good, but it was still more in depth than "Sunset was Celestia's former student" and only having it brought up a few times throughout the series.)

- Starlight's reformation scene was better. (Twilight had to talk her down and show her what she was doing was wrong instead of just blasting her with a rainbow like with Sunset.)

-Starlight still has remnants of her old self and didn't do a complete 180 right away.

However...

- Sunset interacts with the Remane 5 more.

- Sunset actually works WITH the Mane 6, rather than saving the day by herself or with a bunch of secondary characters.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Princess Book Horse

[Hierok 11,829]

Just now, Princess Book Horse said:

However, there are a few things that I feel was better about one than the other.

- Starlight was a much better villain than Sunset.

- Starlight had a better backstory than Sunset. (Yeah, I know Starlight's backstory was rushed and not that good, but it was still more in depth than "Sunset was Celestia's former student" and only having it brought up a few times throughout the series.)

- Starlight's reformation scene was better. (Twilight had to talk her down and show her what she was doing was wrong instead of just blasting her with a rainbow like with Sunset.)

However...

- Sunset's POST reformation story arc is done better. (It feels like there is an invisible barrier between Starlight and the Mane 6.)

- Sunset interacts with the Remane 5 more.

- Sunset actually works WITH the Mane 6, rather than saving the day by herself or with a bunch of secondary characters.

It not only feels like there is a barriere. The good thing of that is that Starlight is more independent and can easier make her own friendgroup, but she isn't really making friends since they don't interact with each other. 

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

5 hours ago, Hierok said:

It not only feels like there is a barriere. The good thing of that is that Starlight is more independent and can easier make her own friendgroup, but she isn't really making friends since they don't interact with each other. 

She really needs more slice of life episodes instead of epic two parters.

[Hierok 11,829]

9 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

She really needs more slice of life episodes instead of epic two parters.

I think she rather needs to spent her time with the mane 6. 

[DonMaguz 1,023]

4 minutes ago, Hierok said:

I think she rather needs to spent her time with the mane 6. 

She doesn't seem to be that comfortable among them, my guess is that she feels intimated by their close friendship which makes her feel as an outsider when they're all together.

I think she's fine with them as her friends, while at the same time she can become closer to other friends (Maud and Trixie at the moment).

[Hierok 11,829]

Just now, DonMaguz said:

She doesn't seem to be that comfortable among them, my guess is that she feels intimated by their close friendship which makes her feel as an outsider when they're all together.

I think she's fine with them as her friends, while at the same time she can become closer to other friends (Maud and Trixie at the moment).

I said that already in my earlier post, but I think it would be nice for her to have an episode with one or two of the mane 6.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

15 hours ago, Princess Book Horse said:

- Sunset's POST reformation story arc is done better. (It feels like there is an invisible barrier between Starlight and the Mane 6.)

I disagree. Mainly because unlike Starlight Sunset doesn't feel like she's the same character as she was before she were reformed. 

[Princess Book Horse 350]

1 hour ago, Yamet said:

I disagree. Mainly because unlike Starlight Sunset doesn't feel like she's the same character as she was before she were reformed. 

That's a pretty fair point. Starlight feels more realistic because she still has remnants of her old self. Sunset's whole personality changed too fast. Editing my original post now.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Princess Book Horse

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

4 hours ago, Yamet said:

I disagree. Mainly because unlike Starlight Sunset doesn't feel like she's the same character as she was before she were reformed.

There are few moments in Friendship Games and Rainbow Rocks, we see some part of Sunset still remain (when she angry with SciTwi, or her face when Dazzling sang Battle of the Band), but then... they completely vanished in Legend of Everfree, become a very lovely girl that not her.

2 hours ago, Princess Book Horse said:

That's a pretty fair point. Starlight feels more realistic because she still has remnants of her old self. Sunset's whole personality changed too fast. Editing my original post now.

My complain about Starlight: IT'S NOT ENOUGH  Her evil charisma and manipulate vocabulary disappear for no reason, she is pretty good with manipulation for years, why become a awkward post-reformation villain? By a way, her habits still there and put in good use.

4 hours ago, Hierok said:

I said that already in my earlier post, but I think it would be nice for her to have an episode with one or two of the mane 6

She need a redemption arc for killing Pinkie's CAKE , i realized she learned her lesson by making tea cakes with non-instant-magic methods but that not ENOUGH, you killed a cake and CAKE's LIFE MATTER.

 

[Thrond 3,257]

59 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

There are few moments in Friendship Games and Rainbow Rocks, we see some part of Sunset still remain (when she angry with SciTwi, or her face when Dazzling sang Battle of the Band), but then... they completely vanished in Legend of Everfree, become a very lovely girl that not her.

That part in "Friendship Games" especially strikes me as something which could have been developed into some continuity with her former self, but which never got the attention it deserved after Sunset's character arc was cut out of that movie. 

[Hierok 11,829]

4 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

There are few moments in Friendship Games and Rainbow Rocks, we see some part of Sunset still remain (when she angry with SciTwi, or her face when Dazzling sang Battle of the Band), but then... they completely vanished in Legend of Everfree, become a very lovely girl that not her.

If you noticed that, you also noticed that it was when she was angry with someone. In legend of Everfree she didn't saw Gloriosa until she was stopped. That could be the reason why she didn't became angry like she used to be. 

5 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

She need a redemption arc for killing Pinkie's CAKE , i realized she learned her lesson by making tea cakes with non-instant-magic methods but that not ENOUGH, you killed a cake and CAKE's LIFE MATTER.

Celestia approves. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

5 hours ago, Hierok said:

That could be the reason why she didn't became angry like she used to be. 

Reasonable, there is no reason to become angry in the first place. However, what i want to say is, there is no glimmer of her former self, just like she became a complete different person, if you count the comic "Fall of Sunset Shimmer", and tell me that Sunset in that Comic  

and that Sunset in Legend of Everfree are the same people? Heh, when i saw Battle of the Band promote song, i thought Sunset will betray mane 6 to side with Dazzling. One of reasons i think Starlight's reformation is believable is Starlight's motivation based on ideology but Twilight had already break her ideology (Cutie Map) and deconstructed her view worlds (Cutie Remark), Starlight without her equal ideology is just empty inside but Twilight filled it with her friendship ideology, Starlight never had any ambitious plan to take over Equestria or sth, if she had such things, she would just do more just messing with Twilight. 

Sunset was an ambitious person, i dont think she can be easy to give up, she was stopped by force not by enlightenment or sth, that why Discord betrayed mane 6 in Twilight Kingdom when he had a chance, you defeated him by force but you didnt defeat his inner demon that always want to do bad things again. Well, my point can be shitty if you dont count comics as canon, so i will say this: Sunset has no link to her former self because writers try to ignore it. 

10 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

That part in "Friendship Games" especially strikes me as something which could have been developed into some continuity with her former self, but which never got the attention it deserved after Sunset's character arc was cut out of that movie. 

Yeah, that animatics. Friendship Games could potentially be the best EQG or tied with Rainbow Rocks, but they decide to waste that opportunity and then we got Legend of Everfree, there is no going back, because if they try to do something drastic to her character right now, it can be a risk.

Sunset right now is a very lovely character and waifu material that everyone will love (include me) ... if they decide to ignore Equestria Girls 1.

 

I want make sure to everyone just in case,  dont think me as Sunset hater or Starlight fanboy or sth because i enjoy them both... for different reasons and hope they will keep getting better.

On 10/8/2017 at 3:16 PM, Princess Book Horse said:

Sunset actually works WITH the Mane 6

Sunset's role is very clear from the beginning, she is the Missing Color of the Rainbow, the Red One. Starlight is purple, and Twilight is purple, they are redundant in term of design anyway, Starlight is not supposed to be with the Mane 6, shoving her into mane 6 was a mistake, she is just a Twilight personal Friend/student and the leader of her own group of friends, her own combination of colors.

 

 

[Hierok 11,829]

13 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

Reasonable, there is no reason to become angry in the first place. However, what i want to say is, there is no glimmer of her former self, just like she became a complete different person, if you count the comic "Fall of Sunset Shimmer", and tell me that Sunset in that Comic  

and that Sunset in Legend of Everfree are the same people? Heh, when i saw Battle of the Band promote song, i thought Sunset will betray mane 6 to side with Dazzling. One of reasons i think Starlight's reformation is believable is Starlight's motivation based on ideology but Twilight had already break her ideology (Cutie Map) and deconstructed her view worlds (Cutie Remark), Starlight without her equal ideology is just empty inside but Twilight filled it with her friendship ideology, Starlight never had any ambitious plan to take over Equestria or sth, if she had such things, she would just do more just messing with Twilight. 

Sunset was an ambitious person, i dont think she can be easy to give up, she was stopped by force not by enlightenment or sth, that why Discord betrayed mane 6 in Twilight Kingdom when he had a chance, you defeated him by force but you didnt defeat his inner demon that always want to do bad things again. Well, my point can be shitty if you dont count comics as canon, so i will say this: Sunset has no link to her former self because writers try to ignore it. 

Teh mayor reason why Sunset is reformed in spirit were her own actions. If you look at here where she turned into a demon, you will see her crying. This could suggest that the moment when she had everything, she would not actually have it anymore. And she grows, so she let's go of her former self more and more to be another person. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Hierok

[Sunny Fox 5,929]

Sunset Shimmer is tops. I don't really dislike Starlight, but as far as "foil for Main Protagonist Twilight" goes, Sunset is "original and best". I consider the act of comparing their situations to be an intellectual non-starter, but comparing their characters just leaves Sunny as triumphant. And Starlight pretty much stole Rarity's manestyle post Season 5... so yeah, not a fan.

 

PS - I wouldn't say the comics are non-canon, but I consider them not really worthy of inclusion in show discussions.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

34 minutes ago, Hierok said:

Teh mayor reason why Sunset is reformed in spirit were her own actions. If you look at here where she turned into a demon, you will see her crying. This could suggest that the moment when she had everything, she would not actually have it anymore. And she grows, so she let's go of her former self more and more to be another person. 

Like i said, my point could be shitty if you decide comic Sunset is not-canon, oh well, let say if i ignore comics...

... Your points are reasonable because Sunset may not as bad as a villain i thought she would be. There are some decencies of her in EQG like she didnt hurt Spike and gave up until Twilight made her pissed off, if it was Starlight, i CANT imagine how far she could go in that situation because her conviction is far stronger than Sunset so maybe Sunset is just a rebellious angry teenager and somehow hit her puberty after taste the rainbow and finally can calm down?  

21 minutes ago, Sunny Fox said:

Sunset Shimmer is tops. I don't really dislike Starlight, but as far as "foil for Main Protagonist Twilight" goes, Sunset is "original and best". I consider the act of comparing their situations to be an intellectual non-starter, but comparing their characters just leaves Sunny as triumphant. And Starlight pretty much stole Rarity's manestyle post Season 5... so yeah, not a fan.

Agree about design, Starlight's design is kinda inferior compare to Sunset (i think her Equal mane is better than her reformed mane). About originality, i have no argument, Sunset come first and Starlight is created for some "Sunset replacement" agendas of writting staffs so it kinda hinder her appealing. About the best character, i disagree with you but i dont come here to argue with you who are the best, because i like them both and seeing them in the same screen is my wet dream. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Lambdadelta

[Hierok 11,829]

Just now, Lambdadelta said:

Like i said, my point could be shitty if you decide comic Sunset is not-canon, oh well, let say if i ignore comics...

... Your points are reasonable because Sunset may not as bad as a villain i thought she would be. There are some decencies of her in EQG like she didnt hurt Spike and gave up until Twilight made her pissed off, if it was Starlight, i CANT imagine how far she could go in that situation because her conviction is far stronger than Sunset so maybe Sunset is just a rebellious angry teenager and somehow hit her puberty after taste the rainbow and finally can calm down?  

I think so. I also think Starlight really believed her goal was to make the world better so she would be far more serious and wouldn't hesitate to do things, while Sunset was there only for her own motives. She could always later succeed and was much easier to confince thanks to that. 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

3 minutes ago, Sunny Fox said:

Sunset Shimmer is tops. I don't really dislike Starlight, but as far as "foil for Main Protagonist Twilight" goes, Sunset is "original and best".

  I disagree. I think Sunset was a mediocre enemy for Twi, being mostly just an ambitious teen until the final act where she got power (and as we see repeatedly in that series, people overwhelmed by Equestrian magic tend to act out their deepest desires, not in a calm rational manner).  So, she got slapped down for it, and had to go though a period of shaming, with the humane girls there to give her the guidance she needed. RR was her final test - to choose to side with the Sirens or with the girls, and she chose the girls. By the time we get to the finale of FG, her reformation and redemption is pretty much complete - again given overwhelming power, her deepest desires? to FIX things, and to help SciTwi.

  I love what Sunset has become; she has gone from a shallow, ambitious teen to a considerate, self-deprecating member of the group, and has grown immeasurably. Her character arc is understated, shown in just a few scenes where she interacts with the girls/Twi in RR and (for example) when the girls correct her after she lashes out at SciTwi in FG, but they hit enough of the highlights so you can see her growth as she moves towards the climax of the movies - as she earns her pony form in RR and her pheonix form in FG.  I do feel trying to pull that out more explicitly would actually detract from that, as it is beautifully done.

3 minutes ago, Sunny Fox said:

I consider the act of comparing their situations to be an intellectual non-starter,

And yet, surprisingly common.

 

3 minutes ago, Sunny Fox said:

And Starlight pretty much stole Rarity's manestyle post Season 5

I assumed that was a gift, rather than theft - Rarity would TOTALLY want to give Starlight (and indeed, any pony willing to stand still long enough) a makeover

Just now, Hierok said:

I think so. I also think Starlight really believed her goal was to make the world better so she would be far more serious and wouldn't hesitate to do things, while Sunset was there only for her own motives. She could always later succeed and was much easier to confince thanks to that. 

Starlight was the more complex character - which isn't surprising really given in the series they can flesh out a character much better than they can in a limited movie run.   But equally, while she may genuinely have believed she was doing things for the "right" reasons, she was essentially doing them for selfish ones - her own pain over being abandoned by Sunburst, and then revenge.  Pre-reformation, SG was no better than Sunset, if no worse.

A key difference though is that Sunset had to be slapped down, hard, before she could change, and Starlight had to be shown the harm she was doing - because at the core, they have vastly different personalities.

[Hierok 11,829]

Just now, CypherHoof said:

Starlight was the more complex character - which isn't surprising really given in the series they can flesh out a character much better than they can in a limited movie run.   But equally, while she may genuinely have believed she was doing things for the "right" reasons, she was essentially doing them for selfish ones - her own pain over being abandoned by Sunburst, and then revenge.  Pre-reformation, SG was no better than Sunset, if no worse.

A key difference though is that Sunset had to be slapped down, hard, before she could change, and Starlight had to be shown the harm she was doing - because at the core, they have vastly different personalities.

She definitly wasn't better, but Starlight needed to be slapped down too, which happened in the following episodes.

• No second Prencess
• Everything she does is magic

But with Sunset it went far more quicker then by Starlight. That is a difference between the two. 

[ThunderCrush 1,850]

It's actually pretty hard for me choose when I don't think about, but when it comes to the tiny details, I like Sunset way better. I guess it has to do with a more social version of Twilight. She is outgoing and unlike Starlight, she isn't as crazy in taking over the world. Sunset was just a little out of place because she thought she was betrayed. But I really like both characters, but if I had to pick one, it would definitely be Sunset.

[CypherHoof 26,479]

Just now, Hierok said:

She definitly wasn't better, but Starlight needed to be slapped down too, which happened in the following episodes.

• No second Prencess
• Everything she does is magic

But with Sunset it went far more quicker then by Starlight. That is a difference between the two. 

Not sure she was slapped down as such.  Sunset got the full Taste the Rainbow treatment which literally left her in a smoking hole in the ground; Starlight got shouted at a bit by Twilight (ok, and Trixie said some dumb stuff that hurt her a lot more) in Prances and the whole Mane 6 (with some sarcastic asides from Spike) made their feelings known in ELTSD. Perhaps at scale that is similar (Starlight is a oversensitive little snowflake, while Sunset is significantly more robust) but the bulk of the work with Sunset was though the humane girls BEING there for her when nobody else would be, while Twi seems to have tried to go it alone with SG, and not made too good a job of it.

[Hierok 11,829]

2 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Not sure she was slapped down as such.  Sunset got the full Taste the Rainbow treatment which literally left her in a smoking hole in the ground; Starlight got shouted at a bit by Twilight (ok, and Trixie said some dumb stuff that hurt her a lot more) in Prances and the whole Mane 6 (with some sarcastic asides from Spike) made their feelings known in ELTSD. Perhaps at scale that is similar (Starlight is a oversensitive little snowflake, while Sunset is significantly more robust) but the bulk of the work with Sunset was though the humane girls BEING there for her when nobody else would be, while Twi seems to have tried to go it alone with SG, and not made too good a job of it.

Well, imagine that everytime you think you have a friend or that you want to make others proud, you will be denied or told you did it wrong again. That must hurt eventually. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

7 minutes ago, Hierok said:

Everything she does is magic again

The only episode that i have to facepalm and thinking "WTF are you doing, Starlight?" , but my best friend LOVE IT AND APPROVE IT. 

11 minutes ago, Hierok said:

Starlight needed to be slapped down

Completely agree but what's done is done, we cant go back time and punish her. How about punish her by IRONY, let Spike keep remind her past until she goes insane, where the slapstick when we need them the most? Slapstick is really work when the characters deserve it, right???

 

 

[Hierok 11,829]

Just now, Lambdadelta said:

The only episode that i have to facepalm and thinking "WTF are you doing, Starlight?" , but my best friend LOVE IT AND APPROVE IT. 

Completely agree but what's done is done, we cant go back time and punish her. How about punish her by IRONY, let Spike keep remind her past until she goes insane, where the slapstick when we need them the most? Slapstick is really work when the characters deserve it, right???

 

 

You my friend, got a dark sense of humour and torture. 

But that would actually make a great episode. Lesson zero 2.0? Magic of one?

[CypherHoof 26,479]

Just now, Lambdadelta said:

The only episode that i have to facepalm and thinking "WTF are you doing, Starlight?" , but my best friend LOVE IT AND APPROVE IT. 

 I think that is meant to be the point really.  I suspect that Starlight is meant to be a bit on the Aspergers side of the line, as she clearly has difficultly understanding how to make friends or deal with emotions in general, and seems to have reacted with a full scale meltdown over the whole Sunburst thing.  Trixie seems to be a substitute for Sunburst now, given how desperately she is clinging to that friendship (hence, all bottled up) but yeah, most Starlight episodes seem to have a fair element of "WTF are you doing?"

 

13 minutes ago, Hierok said:

Well, imagine that everytime you think you have a friend or that you want to make others proud, you will be denied or told you did it wrong again. That must hurt eventually. 

But that isn't what happens. In Prances, Twilight realised her mistake, apologised, and gave Starlight the room to make her own decision, while Trixie literally put her life on the line gambling that Starlight would forgive her. Similarly, in ELTSD, Twilight made her OWN her mistake, and go apologise to the ponies she had abused - who did make their feelings known on the matter (I mean, poor Pinkie's cake... the horror!) but also showed though their actions that they were willing to forgive her (as Pinkie says, they are a reeeealy forgiving group)

Starlight is being guided, not punished.

[Hierok 11,829]

10 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Starlight is being guided, not punished.

So it may seem, but I can imagine it doesn't feels like that. If my friend said that to me I would be heartbroken. And if my friends were angry with me and yelled to me I would feel really depressed, even if they are gonna help you a minute later.