Choosing between Sunset and Starlight?

[CypherHoof 26,479]

43 minutes ago, Hierok said:

So it may seem, but I can imagine it doesn't feels like that. If my friend said that to me I would be heartbroken. And if my friends were angry with me and yelled to me I would feel really depressed, even if they are gonna help you a minute later. 

Yeah, I can imagine that. In the royal sisters episode, despite her flippant conversations with Twi, you can see in her dreams just how large Twi looms in her mind, plus of course her panicked reaction to the idea of graduation. In both cases though, she had earned a rebuke, and I think she sees Twi as her teacher and moral guide, rather than a friend as such. She had to be literally ordered to go do friend things with the other ponies in ELTSD, and you saw how that turned out.

Despite Twi's assertion in Advice that you could see an entire room of Starlight's friends, I don't think that is true; she seems close only to Trixie.  In Leans In, for example, she is conspicuous in her absence while Flutters' close friends rally around.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

Starlight is being guided, not punished.

Isn't that the whole point of Twilight's realization and Starlight's pardon?

During the events of The Cutie Re-Mark Twilight saw time and again how the bonds of friendship strengthened Equestria, or rather how the lack of those bonds weakened Equestria, she had the choice to make Starlight pay for her mistakes and leave her shamed, friendless, bitter and marked forever by her past; or to show her the value of those friendship bonds Twilight is trying to spread across Equestria and show her how to form those bonds.

How could Twilight had any moral ground to teach Starlight about true friendship without offering the chance to be her friend? How could Twilight offer Starlight true friendship after punishing her for her mistakes?

It's not that Starlight didn't deserved to be punished, she wasn't punished for a reason: to strenghten Equestria.

Edited August 11, 2017 by DonMaguz

[CypherHoof 26,479]

9 minutes ago, DonMaguz said:

Isn't that the whole point of Twilight's realization and Starlight's pardon?

It's not that Starlight didn't deserved to be punished, she wasn't punished for a reason: to strenghten Equestria.

I am not sure I WANT Twi to be that cynical or calculating though. I prefer to think that she just felt it was the right thing to do, for Starlight's own development and as the Princess of Friendship.

[Thrond 3,257]

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

 I think that is meant to be the point really.  I suspect that Starlight is meant to be a bit on the Aspergers side of the line, as she clearly has difficultly understanding how to make friends or deal with emotions in general, and seems to have reacted with a full scale meltdown over the whole Sunburst thing.  Trixie seems to be a substitute for Sunburst now, given how desperately she is clinging to that friendship (hence, all bottled up) but yeah, most Starlight episodes seem to have a fair element of "WTF are you doing?"

I don't really think being autistic would explain all of Starlight's behaviour. I generally think that something went horribly wrong in her upbringing that prevented her from learning how to healthily deal with a wide range of situations. I do think Starlight's questionable behaviour is usually the point, but it's so extreme and so dangerous that I find myself growing impatient with it after a while. 

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

Trixie literally put her life on the line

I can see how people have come to that conclusion, and I haven't forced myself to watch the episode recently enough to refute it, but I still think that interpretation is too dark for this show. 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

10 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I don't really think being autistic would explain all of Starlight's behaviour.

I don't think so either, but mostly because it is a fairly exaggerated/stereotypical representation; but compare and contrast to (for another example) Moondancer, who blew off three of her friends and turned into a hermit for years because Twi didn't turn up to a party I am not sure she even knew she was invited to (after all, the background ponies in question ask her if she wants to go to Moondancer's "little get together" back in the very first episode; Spike however had a present and everything so presumably knew all about it)

[Thrond 3,257]

1 minute ago, CypherHoof said:

I don't think so either, but mostly because it is a fairly exaggerated/stereotypical representation; but compare and contrast to (for another example) Moondancer, who blew off three of her friends and turned into a hermit for years because Twi didn't turn up to a party I am not sure she even knew she was invited to (after all, the background ponies in question ask her if she wants to go to Moondancer's "little get together" back in the very first episode; Spike however had a present and everything so presumably knew all about it)

I don't sympathize with Moondancer there, but at least she's not a danger to herself and others. 

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

29 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I don't really think being autistic would explain all of Starlight's behaviour. I generally think that something went horribly wrong in her upbringing that prevented her from learning how to healthily deal with a wide range of situations. I do think Starlight's questionable behaviour is usually the point, but it's so extreme and so dangerous that I find myself growing impatient with it after a while. 

I can see how people have come to that conclusion, and I haven't forced myself to watch the episode recently enough to refute it, but I still think that interpretation is too dark for this show. 

I've always felt that Starlight has extreme abandonment anxiety. She went through two major instances of abandonment, once by Sunburst, and then again by the ponies in her village. And yes, she deserved what happened with her village, but that doesn't make feelings of abandonment go away. I'm certain she knows she was the reason they turned on her, but I think that actually makes it worse for her. She's terrified of rejection, especially that something she does, or doesn't do would lead to that rejection. It would explain why she does so well on her own, but the second friendship becomes an assignment, she starts freaking out when things don't go perfectly.

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

Yeah, I can imagine that. In the royal sisters episode, despite her flippant conversations with Twi, you can see in her dreams just how large Twi looms in her mind, plus of course her panicked reaction to the idea of graduation. In both cases though, she had earned a rebuke, and I think she sees Twi as her teacher and moral guide, rather than a friend as such. She had to be literally ordered to go do friend things with the other ponies in ELTSD, and you saw how that turned out.

Despite Twi's assertion in Advice that you could see an entire room of Starlight's friends, I don't think that is true; she seems close only to Trixie.  In Leans In, for example, she is conspicuous in her absence while Flutters' close friends rally around.

I'm pretty sure she wasn't there at the start of Leans In because Fluttershy didn't invite her. Friendship is a two way street, and I'm certain if Fluttershy asked her for help, she would have been there. I think Starlight is a passive friend, she's always there when asked or invited, but she doesn't like making the first move. Might explain why she never tried to reach out to Sunburst, she was waiting for him to make the first move, then became bitter and angry when he never did.

[CypherHoof 26,479]

21 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

I've always felt that Starlight has extreme abandonment anxiety. She went through two major instances of abandonment, once by Sunburst, and then again by the ponies in her village. And yes, she deserved what happened with her village, but that doesn't make feelings of abandonment go away. I'm certain she knows she was the reason they turned on her, but I think that actually makes it worse for her. She's terrified of rejection, especially that something she does, or doesn't do would lead to that rejection. It would explain why she does so well on her own, but the second friendship becomes an assignment, she starts freaking out when things don't go perfectly.

Sounds right to me. Fluttershy should understand that though, and it would be surprising she wouldn't at least ask - after all, it's for her precious animal friends - or that Twilight wouldn't suggest it to Starlight.

Starlight would be an incredibly loyal friend though, should you manage to get though to the real pony inside, and I would think RD would appreciate that too, it being her Element and all...

 

21 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

I'm pretty sure she wasn't there at the start of Leans In because Fluttershy didn't invite her. Friendship is a two way street, and I'm certain if Fluttershy asked her for help, she would have been there. I think Starlight is a passive friend, she's always there when asked or invited, but she doesn't like making the first move. Might explain why she never tried to reach out to Sunburst, she was waiting for him to make the first move, then became bitter and angry when he never did.

Reminds me of Sawako from Kimi ni Todoke for some reason...

[Hierok 11,829]

2 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Yeah, I can imagine that. In the royal sisters episode, despite her flippant conversations with Twi, you can see in her dreams just how large Twi looms in her mind, plus of course her panicked reaction to the idea of graduation. In both cases though, she had earned a rebuke, and I think she sees Twi as her teacher and moral guide, rather than a friend as such. She had to be literally ordered to go do friend things with the other ponies in ELTSD, and you saw how that turned out.

Despite Twi's assertion in Advice that you could see an entire room of Starlight's friends, I don't think that is true; she seems close only to Trixie.  In Leans In, for example, she is conspicuous in her absence while Flutters' close friends rally around.

But she helped in the end, so she is a definitly a friend of her. 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

11 minutes ago, Hierok said:

But she helped in the end, so she is a definitly a friend of her. 

Sure - and so did the CMC, but only at the very end.

[Hierok 11,829]

Just now, CypherHoof said:

Sure - and so did the CMC, but only at the very end.

Fair point. 

[BritishBrony2012 719]

I loved both of them.

[Princess Book Horse 350]

17 hours ago, Lambdadelta said:

My complain about Starlight: IT'S NOT ENOUGH  Her evil charisma and manipulate vocabulary disappear for no reason, she is pretty good with manipulation for years, why become a awkward post-reformation villain? By a way, her habits still there and put in good use.

 

 

She still does manipulate others. Look at Every Little Thing She Does and Royal Problem.

It irritates me to no end when people act as if Starlight is the only one who gets off scott free without being punished. Look at Discord, he messes up and causes mischief ALL THE TIME and get's easily forgiven every time.

[CypherHoof 26,479]

6 minutes ago, Princess Book Horse said:

She still does manipulate others. Look at Every Little Thing She Does and Royal Problem.

It irritates me to no end when people act as if Starlight is the only one who gets off scott free without being punished. Look at Discord, he messes up and causes mischief ALL THE TIME and get's easily forgiven every time.

To be fair, there is almost certainly nothing they can do about Discord in the absence of the Elements (other than have Flutters look sad, which IS apparently effective)

After ELTSD and to a lesser extent All Bottled Up Starlight acknowledges she messed up and apologises, which is progress. In Royal Problem her eventual success is more a side effect of her own nightmare than of her actions,  but the rather excessive stress Twilight put her (allegedly former) pupil under is a contributing factor.

Starlight is learning, but slowly; she is still someplace between "loose cannon" and "sweating dynamite".

Sunset by contrast appears to have grown into a well adjusted and integrated member of the EqG team, their gradual drift to being a team of Magical Girls notwithstanding.

[Princess Book Horse 350]

6 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

To be fair, there is almost certainly nothing they can do about Discord in the absence of the Elements (other than have Flutters look sad, which IS apparently effective)

After ELTSD and to a lesser extent All Bottled Up Starlight acknowledges she messed up and apologises, which is progress. In Royal Problem her eventual success is more a side effect of her own nightmare than of her actions,  but the rather excessive stress Twilight put her (allegedly former) pupil under is a contributing factor.

Starlight is learning, but slowly; she is still someplace between "loose cannon" and "sweating dynamite".

Sunset by contrast appears to have grown into a well adjusted and integrated member of the EqG team, their gradual drift to being a team of Magical Girls notwithstanding.

I agree. Like, I always say, if the writers give us stories about Starlight interacting and working WITH the Mane 6, her character will become much better as a result.

[Tao 6,719]

I have faults with both and ones that make me love Starlight and Sunset for different reasons.   Also given Sunset has come a long way and we have seen that,  watching Starlight still learning and growing has also been fun on and off.  Yah some eps did not show the best of her learning these lessons,  but with Starlight, we get this theme "we all make mistakes".  While with Sunset,  we see growth and she is a very strong cannon who can stand on her own two feet these days with no prob!  So won't pick one!

[Thrond 3,257]

1 hour ago, Princess Book Horse said:

She still does manipulate others. Look at Every Little Thing She Does and Royal Problem.

It irritates me to no end when people act as if Starlight is the only one who gets off scott free without being punished. Look at Discord, he messes up and causes mischief ALL THE TIME and get's easily forgiven every time.

I understand why Starlight gets forgiven more than Discord, tbh. At least she's trying not to be a jerk.

1 hour ago, Princess Book Horse said:

I agree. Like, I always say, if the writers give us stories about Starlight interacting and working WITH the Mane 6, her character will become much better as a result.

Starlight's presence feels more pronounced than it is primarily because she's so separate from the main friend group. Makes Starlight's presence feel like it's taking the place of the mane six, even though she technically gets just as many episodes as the others. I always found her distance from the mane six interesting, though, so I'm not sure what you could do about the problem without losing something.

 

[Princess Book Horse 350]

1 hour ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I understand why Starlight gets forgiven more than Discord, tbh. At least she's trying not to be a jerk.

Starlight's presence feels more pronounced than it is primarily because she's so separate from the main friend group. Makes Starlight's presence feel like it's taking the place of the mane six, even though she technically gets just as many episodes as the others. I always found her distance from the mane six interesting, though, so I'm not sure what you could do about the problem without losing something.

 

I feel like it would be good for both her fans and her haters if they made her fit in with the rest of the main cast more. As of right now, she either overshadows the Mane Six or she's completely forgotten about. The song at the end of the S5 finale made me excited for all the of the story possibilities they could have between her and the Mane Six, but so far, it's been disappointing. (Even though I like her episodes.)

[SaburoDaimando 1,196]

Why go with one of them when you can go with both?  Besides, they both have tummies to buzz.  XP

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

6 hours ago, Princess Book Horse said:

She still does manipulate others. Look at Every Little Thing She Does and Royal Problem.

It irritates me to no end when people act as if Starlight is the only one who gets off scott free without being punished. Look at Discord, he messes up and causes mischief ALL THE TIME and get's easily forgiven every time.

Yeah, another way to manipulate.

You bad-mouthed John Da Lancie, One of celebrities of brony fandom?  ahahahahaha, just kidding. To be serious, that what i call hypocrite, Discord try to toss Treehugger into another dimension and you know how mess up it is and no one bat an eyes, oh let me tell you about this, Larson's original idea is Discord turn into villain again in that episode not just a petty dragonequus, its suppose to be a dark episode, get it? That could make Starlight look tame in comparison in Every Little Things She Does.

3 hours ago, SaburoDaimando said:

Why go with one of them when you can go with both?  Besides, they both have tummies to buzz.  XP

If you have money enough to buy one of two plushie, which will you buy first, Sunset or Starlight? Answer is: Silly, WORK HARDER AND BUY THEM BOTH 

 

3 hours ago, Princess Book Horse said:

The song at the end of the S5 finale

IF NOT FOR THAT SONGS, THOSE DRAMA COULDNT BE THAT OVER THE TOP LIKE WHAT YOU SAW RIGHT NOW. Shoving her in the mane 6 is a mistake.

[CypherHoof 26,479]

42 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

If you have money enough to buy one of two plushie, which will you buy first, Sunset or Starlight? Answer is: Silly, WORK HARDER AND BUY THEM BOTH 

Ah, but too many Waifus will ruin your Laifu

42 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

IF NOT FOR THAT SONGS, THOSE DRAMA COULDNT BE THAT OVER THE TOP LIKE WHAT YOU SAW RIGHT NOW. Shoving her in the mane 6 is a mistake.

Been having a think about that. She doesn't really "fit" for friendship with any of the mane 6, but then, that's true of most combos with each other; they are an unlikely set of friends.

Perhaps that is a good reason to look forward to future EqG on youtube; While I can't really see Starlight getting close to any of the mane 6, I can TOTALLY see her forming a close friendship with Sunny, SciTwi, or even Montage as she goes though her own redemption - helping the latter work though her issues might give her some insight into her own.

Plus of course imagining double cuddles from Sunny AND GlimGlam makes more sense if they are both on the same side of the mirror

[Hierok 11,829]

10 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I understand why Starlight gets forgiven more than Discord, tbh. At least she's trying not to be a jerk.

Why is everybody thinking being funny and being yourself is being a jerk?  

3 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Ah, but too many Waifus will ruin your Laifu

Have you been watching DWK? 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

Just now, Hierok said:

Why is everybody thinking being funny and being yourself is being a jerk?  

Because while Discord IS funny and IS being himself, the himself he is being is, indeed, a jerk

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

29 minutes ago, Hierok said:

Why is everybody thinking being funny and being yourself is being a jerk?  

Have you been watching DWK? 

Trixie in Boast Buster is the first victim. She's boastful just because she is a show pony, why Rarity, or Rainbow hate her anyway??? Another example, when Starlight joked about Flurry Heart in 'A Times', Twilight stared at her, what? She just joking, why so serious? Why ponies are so serious?

DWK is awesome.

[Goat-kun 2,498]

1 hour ago, Lambdadelta said:

Trixie in Boast Buster is the first victim. She's boastful just because she is a show pony, why Rarity, or Rainbow hate her anyway??? Another example, when Starlight joked about Flurry Heart in 'A Times', Twilight stared at her, what? She just joking, why so serious? Why ponies are so serious?

DWK is awesome.

Oh, I see. So this thread finally reveals the source of our hatred! But why is none mentioning Garble? It's because deep down you know that these excuses are not an argument, and Discord is not really an example of hypocrisy but an explanation for your own actions and reasoning. Starlight or Discord, it's the same shit. The only differences are that Discord is not only less intrusive but also presented as something more unique, though if you ask me his concept has been mismanaged and thus cannot be effectively used outside inconsequential slice-o-life.

 

Why ponies so serious? It's because at the end of the day friendship has to be magic. It has to be the answer for everything. It's funny cause that is the sole reason why redeemed villains even exist in the current state. We should totally remove this hindrance and make Pony great again. Mane 6 should not only be allowed to express their dismay over Trixie or Starlight but also engage in playful verbal duels that could destroy and silence such mooks in a satisfying manner.