episode S07:E18 - Daring Done

[Dark Qiviut 22,160]

Began watching.

Hey, welcome back, Haber! Long time, no see!

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Daring Done, another super 'meh' episode of S7, written by the G.M Berrow, the same writer who wrote FLUTTERSHY LEANS IN  After The One Where Pinkie Pie Knows, there is no DECENT episodes i got from this writer. Visually amazing but shallow stories, kudo to the animators but a thumb down to the writer. I just got a good episode after one 'meh' Spike episode then i got this, that quality control right there, people shitting on Josh Haber as story-editor but our lady story-editor didnt do their job that well (i love their eps but what wrong with the inconsistency this season?). 

Thanks to early release, i dont have to wait for this episode.

Worst Daring Do episode.

[Truffles 2,033]

 

7 hours ago, Jeric said:

It felt like an unedited fanfiction from a capable storyteller who forgot to reread their own story.

I was thinking the same thing, though from a different angle: How did some of the plot points get through the revision process, and even more so, how did it get through storyboarding? If the big issues at the capture scene somehow escaped the scripting process, they should have been plainly apparent when the storyboards were drawn up. I don't get it, and it's a shame because there's a lot to like here.

 

5 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

Daring Done, another super 'meh' episode of S7, written by the G.M Berrow, the same writer who wrote FLUTTERSHY LEANS IN  After The One Where Pinkie Pie Knows, there is no DECENT episodes i got from this writer.

After complaining about the contrivances in this episode, I went back and looked at my final comments for "FLI":

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 8:03 PM, Truffles said:

Sigh. There's just too many contrivances for this episode to be believable.

Which is exactly how I felt about the last act of this episode. I'm beginning to wonder too, what's up with GM Berrow and contrived plot devices? "TOWPPK" was an awesome episode, but this season she's been missing the mark. What @Jeric said above is correct, this episode and from what I recall of "FLI" - her previous episode -  seem like they went straight from first draft to production, overlooking some obvious plot issues that take viewers like me completely out of the story. Again, I don't get it... 

[DJ_Bonebraker 182]

I rather enjoyed this episode, aside from some minor issues with the writing (but then again, the way I see it, if I had any talent whatsoever, I'd be on the writing staff rather than working as a faceless goon for the military-industrial complex, so I try to not be too critical ), I really dug the story.

Here I was speculating about whether it would be about Daring Do actually retiring for this reason or that, only to be blind-sided by the reason being that Daring's Hero Insurance(tm) had essentially expired & it was kinda like what happened at the beginning of Hancock, The Incredibles or The Legend of Korra where they deconstruct the whole thing about how the heroes can destroy half the city & nopony complains or is upset about it.  I especially liked the part at the end where Daring Do uses her massive fortune from the novels she wrote to make good on all the stuff she messed up in the process of saving the town.

Now, aside from all that, I must say that I REALLY liked the story of Somnambula & the Sphynx and I really like Somnambula's design and the theme of hope behind the story.  Furthermore, when they mentioned Glowpaz, that immediately got my attention, since I own a copy of Trixie and the Razzle-Dazzle Ruse, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that this episode was written by the same person.  Nice to see that Glowpaz is fully canon, though.

Definitely going to watch it again.

[Jeric 46,834]

52 minutes ago, Truffles said:

Which is exactly how I felt about the last act of this episode. I'm beginning to wonder too, what's up with GM Berrow and contrived plot devices? "TOWPPK" was an awesome episode, but this season she's been missing the mark. What @Jeric said above is correct, this episode and from what I recall of "FLI" - her previous episode -  seem like they went straight from first draft to production, overlooking some obvious plot issues that take viewers like me completely out of the story. Again, I don't get it... 

I agree. Part of this issue is the editor which is apparently Haber again. Capable writer who is a mixed bag in editing. A good editor can take a loose draft and make it shine. Here is an example of what I mean: imagine this is the first draft. Berrow sends it in and gets a content comment with this question

"I see we are ending on a theme of hope and taking a leap of faith. Can we tie that into the first act somehow in dialogue?"

"Maybe have Pinkie and Daring distracted by a merchant complaining while Rainbow discovers it's Cabelleron."

"Did we address the Journal entry?"

"The first act set-up feels too close to Dating Don't. How do we make it distinct? If we keep it, perhaps a humorous reference?"

"Pinkie feels mostly invisible until the third act, outside of a few Pinkie  jokes. Add some unique interaction between her and Daring that couldn't be between other characters in the main cast."

That's the job of an editor. This was barely touched.  And no, I am not saying that all of the above were problems, but that is what a content editor would be considering. Haber just isn't that good at that particular role. He really is better at just handling writing assignments. 

[Steve Piranha 28,752]

11 hours ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

*sigh* Fine. Sorry for sounding angry.

I'm just sick of people focusing on the negative like this Damsel in Distress moment instead of the positive like the lesson of Hope in that awesome middle part!

I hope you understand my view.

Well, I guess another Fame and Misfortune is in order  

 

Well, I'm happy we got an early release of this episode. I'm happy we've seen a more vulnerable side of Daring Do, and as I've foresaw, Janise Jaud voiced in this episode, but not Somnambula as I've expected  

[Dark Qiviut 22,160]

And everyone's upset at Daring for destroying an intelligible statue.

If that's true, then the townsponies are absolutely justified to feel upset. That statue must've been really important to their culture, and losing it means losing a part of their ancestry.

A little disappointing how it feels a little more like a half-gag at this point.

Just now, Steve Piranha said:

Well, I guess another Fame and Misfortune is in order  

Nah, one failed satire is enough.

---

Well, well, well, long time, no, see, CABALLERON! How's that disguise of yours workin' out?

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

Good episode really. Found it pretty good, and while I think it IS a weaker Daring do episode (Stranger than fan fiction is so much better... but stranger than fanfiction is also one of the best in the show IMO), still very serviceable.

Really enjoy them trying to showcase Pinkie's element as representing hope a bit more, since that's pretty vauge in the show apart from one line from celestia.

 

12 hours ago, A.V. said:

Caballeron is an underrated Magnificent B*****d, and Somnambula and Sphinx are waifu material.

 

Just saying.

Cabelleron is much better than azuihotl honestly; Azuhiotl is a pretty crappy villain who comes off as just a raging (literal) retard most of the time, while cabelleron actually seems to plot things out and works better as a foil/villain to daring do. (especially in the novels where azuihotl almost defeats himself multiple times and only gets by due to having someone else to think for him)

 

10 hours ago, JH24 said:

Daring Do episodes usually don't really do it for me. The same goes for this one. Lots of worldbuilding and I loved the new locations, but the episode also felt slow to me. At the same time I did like the moral in the end.

Rainbow's capture was... odd. Normally I shouldn't be bothered by this but here it felt a little off. 

The mane six being useless or easily capturable when the plot calls for it is a bit of a running issue in the show currently really; I mean, even going past the mane six, Starlight was pretty incompetent in yesterday's episode too when push came to shove. (Its like ponies are leprechauns, capture them in a bag and they're indebted to not use their magic to escape without your wishes)

 

19 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

And everyone's upset at Daring for destroying an intelligible statue.

If that's true, then the townsponies are absolutely justified to feel upset. That statue must've been really important to their culture, and losing it means losing a part of their ancestry.

A little disappointing how it feels a little more like a half-gag at this point.

Nah, one failed satire is enough.

 

---

Well, well, well, long time, no, see, CABALLERON! How's that disguise of yours workin' out?

 

I would honestly have liked a scene where dash chews them out for worrying about the physical object and not the INTENT of the object-- Somnambula would have prioritized helping others over any physical object no matter how precious after all, so being upset about the statue being destroyed without looking at WHY is missing the point of having it IMO.

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Unlikeable Pony

[Dark Qiviut 22,160]

Somnambula and the sphinx. Isn't that from the Legends of Magic?

[Jeric 46,834]

34 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Well, I guess another Fame and Misfortune is in order

Ok. This isn't the first time I've seen this tactic used without proper context. This is a general commentary on the sharing of opinions on the show, and the occasional attempts at stating one person or a group of people are somehow missing something crucial in the equine equation. This is not specifically directed at you, since you are one of the better members on this site and have always been a decent person to me. 

You see, so far this season I actually have publicly stated that just about every episode was solid to phenomenal. I've even gone so far as to refer to specific decisions as genius. I genuinely disliked just one episode. I was lukewarm on this episode and all of a sudden I find myself being referred to as a fan that was unnecessarily picky. What the hell? 

Echo chambers are bad man. People are going to have differing tastes and opinions. They certainly don't need to be quoted 'Pony Scripture' as if they haven't learned a lesson from a cartoon just because an episode doesn't make them jump up and celebrate the existence of all things DHX and Hasbro. I'm a 40 year old man. I don't need moral guidance from this show. I enjoy it because it is entertaining, and it regularly goes beyond what I expect. This episode didn't. 

DQ just posted his review of Fame and it's as scathing as he felt it needed to be. It isn't an opinion I share at all, but it was a well constructed series of complaints. At know time would I ever suggest that he is incapable of analysis, or rendering an appropriate verdict based on his own council and barometer of taste. Nor would I be condescending to him by using the morals of an animated show forgetting one salient fact -- that he is an adult. He isn't ignorant of the intended themes or what other people who enjoyed it took from it. 

Fame and Misfortune isn't a weapon to brandish in an attempt to cast a reductionist verdict on someone's fandom of this show. People who don't like an episode are usually not obtuse. The episode had it's good things, it had it's bad things. I look forward to the next one and I expect it to be the show I typically and thoroughly enjoy. From time to time they may get things wrong from my perspective. 

I really wanted to like this one a lot. I really enjoy Rainbow Dash and her appearances this season have been superb. As it stands, there were a few problems I had with it. Did it ruin the whole thing for me? Not at all. I loved seeing the new lore. I wish the biggest gripe I had was that I have to learn how to spell a new character's exotic name.

Nobody needs to be told they aren't a proper fan because they don't like everything about the show or an episode. No one has to enjoy this show the same way and focus solely on one element. One can openly disagree with why a fan came to a specific conclusion, explain why things did or didn't work for them, and have a open dialog over it, but invoking anything that suggests that a person isn't capable of forming the opinion though the process that matters to then just rings hollow. 

TL;DR ... My own council will I keep on what I like and don't ... 

 

 

41 minutes ago, Unlikeable Pony said:

would honestly have liked a scene where dash chews them out for worrying about the physical object and not the INTENT of the object-- Somnambula would have prioritized helping others over any physical object no matter how precious after all, so being upset about the statue being destroyed without looking at WHY is missing the point of having it IMO.

This would have been a legitimately interesting approach, and actually kinda unique for the show. There is a cool thematic element to that considering Dating is focused on objects with some cool provenance. Is the object more important than what it represents? Would be curious to hear Dating Do's thoughts on that.

[Luminance 2,181]

We're really exploring Equestria now. There's a good amount of world building in season 7 and to also include additional new characters and their respective stories like introducing Somnambula and the Spinx, in this episode was really a cool and neat idea. Love the opportunity for the show to travel and developed other parts of Equestria that where in direly need of exploring. When did A.K. Yearling became so adorably cute all of a sudden?! 

I like how Season 7 started off strong with the concept of family and it's now ending off with the idea of mystical legends and also building new ground in the MLP universe. Really looking what's next. 

[Ganondorf8 11,118]

It makes you wonder if Hasbro should do something to curb these random blunders when it comes to the release schedule given that it leaves them with a massive headache. On the other hand, we got to see next week's episode early so I went ahead and watched it because I had nothing else to do. Now we've seen the fourth legend appear in the show and one which will be released in the comics within the coming days. I see it as a sneak preview because of these unusual circumstances.

I do have a soft spot for Egyptian mythology so the story of Sonambula and the overall setting were an extra treat for me. The writers and animators were spot on when it came to the lore of Egypt and those Egyptian styled ponies were something else. Dr. Caballeron was an obvious dead giveaway as his stubble on his chin is so easy to recognize and the overall plot was once again predictable but these are minor points at best. A.K. Yearling was given a lot of character development and even questioned her own sense of self in relation to how she behaves as her alter-ego, Daring Do. Hope is something we all need in our lives especially when things are so bad yet some take it for granted while others share it with those who lack it.

Rainbow Dash really came through with her loyalty towards A.K. in that she refused to accept that she had done anything wrong, and of course, we can't forget all of those geek-out moments she continues using whenever it comes to Daring Do. Odd that Rainbow got kidnapped so easily without putting up a fight. It seemed very out of place though it was most likely done for plot convenience and to get things moving. Pinkie Pie was once again random in her behaviour and it appears she has a connection with Sonambula given how she tapped into the legend by using it to convince Daring Do to never give up hope. I was worried that Pinkie would have no purpose other than just being there for comedy but she ended up being the one who pulled everyone together resulting in their success.

I'll admit it. I loved this episode because of the Egyptian background and the legend of Sonambula adding both lore to Equestria and embracing its roots. Everything else... aside from one or two things here and there... contributed in their own way making this one pretty good.

[Dark Qiviut 22,160]

Since I'm tired physically and emotionally, my comments will be brief:

Strengths:

1. For the most part, Pinkie and Dash were really good. Pinkie's best and Dash's second-best appearances this season. Their opposing personalities created a great dynamic that provided some of the episode's best comedy.
2. Daring was really good, too. She regretted destroying that statue and realized the possible collateral damage her journeys might cause.
3. The story of Somnambula. The town is a ponified Egypt, so it makes sense to have an Ancient Egyptian-inspired legend here.
4. Pinkie interrupting Dash and stating that if Daring doesn't wanna talk about why she retired, she's fine. Apparently, this is a reference to her character development from Rock Solid Friendship; if true, then kudos for keeping it stuck. Credit to Tangerine from the EQD Discord for catching this.
5. In the village is a pony wearing a hijab, a nice representation to Muslim culture. It makes sense contextually, as Egypt's home to a prominent Muslim population. Secondly, it  gives a representation to Muslims who watch the show. I think it's in good taste, but being Jewish, I won't speak for them.
6. The morals are good: don't give up hope when beaten down, and understand how even the best of intentions could cause more harm than good.
7. The townsponies had real reason to feel upset at Daring. She destroyed the statue, and Caballeron (who they don't know of) baited them into convincing them she was a thief and vandal. Somnambula's statue represented the town's history and sanctity.

Weaknesses:

1. AK, Pinkie, and Dash lost some of their IQ when Caballeron was around. His voice is so distinctive, disguise terrible. How could they NOT notice him this whole time?
2. Caballeron = mega-idiot. And we wondered why Quibble loved him until he became a dumbass.
3. Dash was OOC when confronted by the Dr. She may be brokenhearted, but why would she, the most aggressive and headstrong of the M8, just give up and let Dr. capture her easily??
   
   And how the hell could neither AK nor Pinkie hear them when they were only a few yards away?
4. After the Story of Somnambula, the episode hammered in the word "hope" way too many times. The story may be simple, but this takes them for granted. Lessening the use would do better.
5. The tone confused itself. This episode played the conflict rather straight until the climax. Then it decided to go full ham by having Pinkie and Daring take a leap of faith into the molten slime pit. I understand that Daring's ingrained climate isn't exactly that serious, but we as an audience are supposed to take AK's conflict seriously, and the townsponies played it straight, too.
6. Dash stating that nopony really knows Daring's real.
   
   Uh, Dash, you, Pinkie, and your friends outed her in Fame. Work on your continuity, please.

This is Haber's return to the show, and it kinda shows. Done doesn't have the polish that many episodes prior have, and the careless mistakes hurt it. No, it's not bad, but could've been better. It's an above-average episode.

[GiFTGewEhrSCHutzen-4 8,827]

The episode is okay. Though, I dig the new designs for the ponies living in the village of Sonambula, with the Egyptian theme and all, also including the Pharaohs as well. Also, liked the  Indiana Jones map destination reference thing there as well.

[CastletonSnob 3,025]

Anyone else think the rest of the season is gonna decline in quality because Haber's back as story editor?

[Jeric 46,834]

1 hour ago, VG_Addict said:

Anyone else think the rest of the season is gonna decline in quality because Haber's back as story editor?

This depends. For the sake of argument let's say he is the editor for every episode from here to the season finale, and that all the future writers assigned to episodes that haven't aired have writing habits that tend to require a good content editor to smooth them out a bit (Berrow). In the case, the general overall quality if the remainder of the season will likely suffer. 

Haber typically doesn't knee-cap a good writer, so a scripted penned by the Lady Writers, Vogel, or Confalone tended to be fine. An editor's job is to improve upon a draft -- to help a writers vision become refined and polished, and Haber just isn't that great at it. Berrow absolutely requires a good editor, most authors that pen books will tell you that a story comes together in revision. It's such a truism that it's become ingrained in the craft, and part of the process of how almost all authors write a short story or novella. It's actually the one missing element of fimfiction in general. The editorial process and help there there seems focused on line editing and copywriting, not content editing. I digress. 

Will the remaining episodes be bad? Well ... I would have to suggest that they would probably be similar to Season 6 in quality. Some good, some bad, most average -- like this one. So yes, I'm expecting average going forward specifically because he may be back.

[Sly 236]

2 hours ago, Jeric said:

Will the the remaining episodes be bad? Well ... I would have to suggest that they would probably be similar to Season 6 in quality. Some good, some bad, most average -- like this one. So yes, I'm expecting average going forward specifically because he may be back.

I'd like to make a little objection thought: not all the remaining episodes will have him as story editor, To Change a Changeling aired as number 17th but was actually the 19th of the S7, while Daring Done was the original 17, but will air as 18th (the reason of the leak was infact due to its production number, and the employe of Hasbro's YT Channel mistakenly putted it on due to that). TCAC had only songco and lewis as story editors, so that might mean that Haber wasn't the story editor for ALL the remaining ones (althought, he will SURELY be for the finale as he's one of the involved writers).

Edited September 4, 2017 by Sly

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Of course, Haber is back so the spiral down negativity will return.

Season 7B has been really good so far, people seriously need to temper expectations with this show, it's a plague on the fandom to always expect the best. Even when people say going in they have low expectations, I still see constant nitpicking and declarations that an episode is bad based on one or two scenes.

Yeah I am probably being overly defensive here but it's because I did love this episode. It may end up being like season 6 where I come here and suddenly every episode is mediocre.

Also off topic, I assume there will be a poll when it airs officially?

[Jeric 46,834]

5 hours ago, Jeric said:

This depends. For the sake of argument let's say he is the editor for every episode from here to the season finale,

 

5 hours ago, Jeric said:

This depends

@Sly

I hope pointing that fact that my post was a hypothetical that literally started off saying it is dependent on that specific element helps with your objection. 

Usually, and logically, absent the factors that the hypothetical is based on, the conclusion changes. Obviously, if Haber only worked on a few episodes this season the potential issues will be mitigated. That is implied in a hypothetical. 

The subsequent analysis of his general editorial approach stands as an episode by episode view as it also depends on who is writing the episode (also implied in my post). 

To Where and Back Again showed that Haber can be a competent editor when paired with decent writer. You toss Vogel at Haber he is decent. 

1 hour ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

, I still see constant nitpicking and declarations that an episode is bad based on one or two scenes.

Who? I'm serious. Go through the thread and pick out the people who honestly said this was a bad episode. You have one or two. There are a few like me that have some general issues with the episode, but overall though it was average, good, or fine. 

Some of those people in the 'average' camp with this episode have been singing the seasons praises while still being able to point out something that they didn't like from time to time. 

There are people like me who enjoyed Season Six despite it's awkward moments and are glad to have experienced it. It could have been better. 

God forbid someone likes something and doesn't love it. 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

15 minutes ago, Jeric said:

 

@Sly

I hope pointing that fact that my post was a hypothetical that literally started off saying it is dependent on that specific element helps with your objection. 

Usually, and logically, absent the factors that the hypothetical is based on, the conclusion changes. Obviously, if Haber only worked on a few episodes this season the potential issues will be mitigated. That is implied in a hypothetical. 

The subsequent analysis of his general editorial approach stands as an episode by episode view as it also depends on who is writing the episode (also implied in my post). 

To Where and Back Again showed that Haber can be a competent editor when paired with decent writer. You toss Vogel at Haber he is decent. 

Who? I'm serious. Go through the thread and pick out the people who honestly said this was a bad episode. You have one or two. There are a few like me that have some general issues with the episode, but overall though it was average, good, or fine. 

Some of those people in the 'average' camp with this episode have been singing the seasons praises while still being able to point out something that they didn't like from time to time. 

There are people like me who enjoyed Season Six despite it's awkward moments and ate glad to have experienced it. It could have been better. 

God forbid someone likes something and doesn't love it. 

I am not specifically referring to this episode, other then the fact that it is reminding me of similar trends I saw many times in season 6. An episode considered average will be "bad" a month later.

I also think it is unfair to assume or expect most episodes will be average simply because Haber is back

It's also not just relegated to these forums. But other places where episodes are discussed. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Ryanmahaffe

[Will Guide 21,325]

@Jeric

Since I'm the one who started this episode discussion, I should be the one to add a poll, but I don't have a pun idea for all 5 choices. I know one of them should contain hope. Can you give me suggestions in a PM?

[Jeric 46,834]

5 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

I also think it is unfair to assume or expect most episodes will be average simply because Haber is back

Sure it's fair. He was the story editor of Season Six. Season Six had more episodes that I felt needed a few extra content passes to tighten plot and dialog. The season was enjoyable, it just so happens it needed a better content editor. Another episode comes out with very familiar issues with his name attached as the guy is supposed to help the writer tighten the script. It's fair to say that odds are, if his name is attached to anything other than just writer, there is an increased probability that I won't think the episode is amazing. This is me man. You know, the guy who is typically accused for not been critical enough. What I am talking about is historical trending and forecasting.

I also had no idea it was Haber until after someone brought it to my attention AFTER I said it felt like Season 6.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, Jeric said:

Sure it's fair. He was the story editor of Season Six. Season Six had more episodes that I felt needed a few extra content passes to tighten plot and dialog. The season was enjoyable, it just so happens it needed a better content editor. Another episode comes out with very familiar issues with his name attached as the guy is supposed to help the writer tighten the script. It's fair to say that odds are, if his name is attached to anything other than just writer, there is an increased probability that I won't think the episode is amazing. This is me man. You know, the guy who is typically accused for not been critical enough. What I am talking about is historical trending and forecasting.

I also had no idea it was Haber until after someone brought it to my attention AFTER I said it felt like Season 6.

Haber has had issues as editor in the past I know, but at the same time I didn't like certain writers and they I think they dramatically improved, I generally give everyone the same treatment, if Haber is returning as full story editor of course it may not be as near flawless as Lady Writers, but I do think he can improve and based on how much I like this episode he has improved.

While writer and editor isn't the same thing, I have to say though I am a bit biased towards him because he is still the writer of my favorite episode(s) in the series.

[Jeric 46,834]

4 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

@Jeric

Since I'm the one who started this episode discussion, I should be the one to add a poll, but I don't have a pun idea for all 5 choices. I know one of them should contain hope. Can you give me suggestions in a PM?

Absolutely WiiGuy. Let me mull it over for a few minutes and let the Dad Joke juice flow.

[Will Guide 21,325]

Poll is now up. Although, I'm not familiar with Indiana Quotes, so I thank my friend for coming up with them.