S07:E25+E26 - Shadow Play

[Steve Piranha 28,778]

You know, I think there's actually a connection with Stygian with Castlevania, specifically Lords of Shadow's Gabriel Belmont. Apart of Pony of Shadows is a shout out from Castle-Mane-Ia as we all know, Stygian's turning to evil due to feeling of betrayal rings a bell on Gabriel becoming Dracula 

[The Blueberry Writer 278]

On 6/30/2018 at 6:15 PM, Senko said:

Interesting theory on Alicorn though I can't really comment on it as I didn't realise there were books. I'll need to look into that, right now like I said I'm leaning towards the theory what makes an Alicorn special is they have the gifts of all 3 races and a certain social cachet because looking back they've not really done anything especially powerful. Celestia and Luna's sun/moon link is their cutie mark talent, Twilight's big battles have used either the power of friendship or when all the Alicorn combined their powers in her. Aside from the Tiax fight (4 Alicorn vs ? absorbed pony's + discord and even here we don't know how much Tiax could use of the stolen power) there's not been a lot of huge ability use. Yes cadence shielded the crystal empire for a time but shining armour did the same for canterlot while actively being drained and the princesses do keep getting captured. It would make a fair amount of sense if we go with the idea their power is generally impressive because their strong unicorns but what makes them special is they also have pegasus and earth pony gifts. Flurry Heart could just be an insanely powerful unicorn she did have an easier time stacking those other babies than Sweetie Bell did using the broom.

I do like the theories about the darkness working in the background to kill off all life would explain that barren world Twilight saw in the alternate universes episode, an enemy she doesn't even know exists won there. Also going by what we see what Luna really wants is the same respect/admiration as her big sister. She went for nighttime to force the other ponies to be active in her part of the clock but if she's the only ruler she's actually happy to rule the day.

I am very sorry it took me so long to get back to you, I never saw a notification that you quoted me.  Whats your thoughts on why Alicorns don't have other pony races mixed with there powers, like Bat Ponies, or Hippogriffs, I guess technically Crystal Ponies, I think theres more all over imo.

Also in a bio for Shining, it say he is "the other barer of the Magic of Love," which I think it why he also has powerful magic barriers, while Tia and Luna don't have magic barriers anywhere near as powerful.

[bigbertha 410]

I don't care about the lore of the show. This is a two parter all about the lore of the show. Obviously I feel more bored than intrigued at all of the exposition (most of part 1), but the two parter also annoys me.

Twilight is blinded by her love of Starswirl and can't see that reversing a spell Starswirl cast won't end well. The only reason for this is so Starlight can be right. Then the pillars are released and everyone needs a way to stop the Pony of Shadows. Instead of listening to Starlight after she already didn't listen to Starlight, which lead to the Pony of Shadows being released, she listens to Starswirl. Again, this is only done so Starlight can be sympathetic and right. Everything everyone does is so Starlight can be the only one who was right the whole time. None of the rest of the mane six realize that releasing the pillars is a bad idea because Starlight needs to be sympathetic.

The Pony of Shadows is a worse antagonist than Nightmare Moon. At least Nightmare Moon tried to stop the mane six. The Pony of Shadows does nothing. He's not even a constant looming presence like Sombra. He just appears at the end of part 1, monologues at the start of part 2, and disappears until the end. His backstory is on par with Nightmare Moon's as being boring and cliche.

None of the pillars except Starswirl serve any purpose until the end. They never have any personalities and most of the few lines they get are exposition. And there's no reason to care about any of them. This entire arc only started in the second half of the season, 3 pillars were shoved into one episode, and none of their legends did anything to make them worth caring about aside from Mage Meadowbrook. I think this could've been improved if:

1. This arc started in the beginning of the season. That way, 3 pillars wouldn't need to be shoved into one episode. They would all get the time they need.

2. There was one episode focused on each pillar. The audience would learn what their personality is and why they matter in Equestrian history. Instead of a 3 minute legend in an episode, Rockhoof could get a full episode to show what the Mighty Helm were, what Rockhoof was like aside from "strong and determined" and maybe some hints at the Legends of Magic. And this could be done for all of the pillars.

3. There was some progression over the arc. Instead of all the arc related episodes just being legends, have the 6 legends episodes include the mane six learning about these legends (a'la A Health of Information and Daring Done) and then have them learn more about how they joined together and who Stygian is. It may limit the number of slice of life episodes, but if you're going to go for an arc like this, it has to be done right regardless of the sacrifices. If the staff really didn't want to limit the number of slice of life episodes, they shouldn't have done this arc in the first place instead of half-assing it.

The jokes mostly miss. There are a few good gags, but not enough to save the episode.

The only thing I really like is Rainbow Dash and Spike in the Dragon Lands. It's funny, entertaining, and everything the rest of the two parter isn't.

Score: 1/10

Edited March 23, 2019 by bigbertha

[Dethde 20]

This episode genuinely annoyed me, for multiple reasons.

For one, i realise that discord would completely destroy any reason for these two episodes to exist, but come on, he was literally called out by pinkie for being a defeated villain, none of the ponies thought of discord as an option, it would have been much better for the show to either address discord as being in another dimension, or address the villain as immune to chaos magic (Which to be honest doesn't really make sense.) Celestia and Luna didn't help a single bit either, they HAD to have a stronger magic than starlight right?

Secondly, the Pony of Shadows was a complete disappointment, not only did it have weaker magic than starlight (Granted, in a weakened state.), monologue and as a result giving the pillars a full chance to contain him, get defeated almost immediately upon the second sighting, it also left itself completely open to attack after clearly noticing the abilities of starlight, twilight, star swirl and the pillars.

Third of all, why did it even take the elements of harmony to completely disappear after sending the pony of shadows to limbo? The Elements didn't disappear when Discord was stoned, and discord was a FAR greater threat than the pony of shadows. Star swirl also banished the Sirens into the equestria girls universe with the Magic Mirror, couldn't he just do that again? I also have to say, Star Swirl was Really really dumb in this episode, he completely disregarded Twilight's feats, disregarded the possibilities of befriending the Pony of Shadows, and disregarded the fact that there were many other banishment spells as his disposal. That was something i'd expect Chancellor Neighsay to pull, not Beardo himself.

Though i have to say something, the parallels drawn between Starlight's actions and Stygion's actions were great in my opinion, it shows that Star Swirl couldn't accomplish as great of acts as Twilight sparkles due to him not learning the true values of Friendship, and that if he was here instead of Twilight, Starlight would have been banished instead of reformed.

[Sunlight Glisten 368]

Why is starswirl such a dick?

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

14 hours ago, Sunlight Glisten said:

Why is starswirl such a dick?

Because

1.) He never learned friendship, he can be respectful but he won't be nice to everyone just cuz
2.) He and the pillars just spent a long time battling against an all powerful being of pure darkness and finally found a way to defeat him, so they did by making the ultimate sacrifice...until some fangirl alicorn literally undid everything they accomplished and released this great evil back upon the world... to Starswirl, it feels like literally no time has passed between the sacrifice and being released... it was all for nothing.

[Sunlight Glisten 368]

6 minutes ago, RyanMahaffe said:

Because

1.) He never learned friendship, he can be respectful but he won't be nice to everyone just cuz
2.) He and the pillars just spent a long time battling against an all powerful being of pure darkness and finally found a way to defeat him, so they did by making the ultimate sacrifice...until some fangirl alicorn literally undid everything they accomplished and released this great evil back upon the world... to Starswirl, it feels like literally no time has passed between the sacrifice and being released... it was all for nothing.

I get that he was frustrated, they all were. Yet none of the others were complete jerks. It seemed so out of canon. Here is supposed to be the wisest pony ever to live, teacher of the great and kind celestial, and he's arrogant, quick to judge, does not listen to other wise council. It just seemed out of canon.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

20 minutes ago, Sunlight Glisten said:

I get that he was frustrated, they all were. Yet none of the others were complete jerks. It seemed so out of canon. Here is supposed to be the wisest pony ever to live, teacher of the great and kind celestial, and he's arrogant, quick to judge, does not listen to other wise council. It just seemed out of canon.

But he did listen to his peers, he respects Meadowbrook clearly, he dismissed Twilight's spell because he had no reason to respect her, she rushed head first into a situation she can't understand to simply free her idol. When Meadowbrook tells Starswirl that Twilight's spell might work, he decides to listen to her and gives the spell another look. Starswirl is powerful, wise, and respected, but he is not nice to those he deems incompetent, which he clearly thought Twilight was. However once Twilight proved herself to him, he started actively being more kind to her and others. Saay, after the map calls them to Hollow Shades his personality seems to shift, he gives Twilight more praise and aside from Starlight is no longer constantly rude, and the only reason he is rude to Starlight is he doesn't believe in reformation.

Edited August 3, 2018 by RyanMahaffe

[Senko 459]

Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny is pretty much his mindset till he meets Twilight and realises people can change.

[MLPFanatic34 3,234]

I enjoyed both parts of the finale, I really liked the overall plot behind these episodes and seeing Stygian go down a dark path due to a misunderstanding was heartbreaking, I loved the introduction of Starswirl the Bearded and the other pillars. My real only issue was that Starswirl came off as a bit of a jerk, which at at times made it hard for me to tolerate, other than that Twilight's overall reactions with him were quite funny and cute. 10/10 

[heavens-champion 1,893]

On 10/23/2017 at 9:07 PM, Kyoshi said:

It was a team effort for the original plan of banishing him to limbo, but for talking it out, it was only Starlight who suggested it and then Twilight helped with that at the last second because she saw Stygian. That's it. So while all the other characters ignored the idea of talking it out like blind idiots, Starlight was the only one who was right in the end. To which I say, bleh.

It wasn't just Starlight who saved the day.

[qwerE 95]

Well, this was not certainly the best episode ever, but I did find it quite enjoyable. As many point out, the story wasn't well devised. Starlight was the only one with sense, and no one even considered giving her idea a thought.(Although they were being rational from a real-life perspective, this is MLP where friendship is everything) I do know that Starlight is great and all, but I think she's getting too many major roles. She's been the core part of the story in all two-parters since she came out. As much as I love Starlight Glimmer, I want to see the mane 6 do something again.

Well, besides the over-usage of Starlight in the plot, I liked the episode. I'm sure it could have been much better, but this was good enough.

[Moony the Cat 3,697]

This 2-Parter was a weird one. First of all, it was exactly as bad as Nighmare Moon, the Shadow Pony appeared way to late ( while Nightmare Moon appeared way to early ) and had way to less screen time. Specially since he really only appeared in the very last Episode. There was no real fight and there was just so many not answered questions.

How did the Shadow Pony become so strong in the first Place? I thought his ritual was interrupted? Was the shadow created out of his hatred? Or was the Shadow cast by someone else? Where did it come from? In the end it seems to be a different entity, so who is the entity? What is its Story? Can it live without its host? It seemed to have lost its power in the end, so...did they even banish anything? Did they need to banish it? I dont remember them banishing Chrysalis or Discord for that madder, so why did the shadow Pony deserve it?

Honestly im just confused. I mean i wasnt bored, that counts for me as being a good episode...but, it was weird.

[Senko 459]

11 hours ago, Nanotek said:

This 2-Parter was a weird one. First of all, it was exactly as bad as Nighmare Moon, the Shadow Pony appeared way to late ( while Nightmare Moon appeared way to early ) and had way to less screen time. Specially since he really only appeared in the very last Episode. There was no real fight and there was just so many not answered questions.

How did the Shadow Pony become so strong in the first Place? I thought his ritual was interrupted? Was the shadow created out of his hatred? Or was the Shadow cast by someone else? Where did it come from? In the end it seems to be a different entity, so who is the entity? What is its Story? Can it live without its host? It seemed to have lost its power in the end, so...did they even banish anything? Did they need to banish it? I dont remember them banishing Chrysalis or Discord for that madder, so why did the shadow Pony deserve it?

Honestly im just confused. I mean i wasnt bored, that counts for me as being a good episode...but, it was weird.

I think it was meant to show the contrast between the pillars and elements. The pillars were all about banishing/destroying their enemies as shown by their different connections e.g. strenght, hope, sorcery whereas the elements from a modern, more peaceful time have not only grown stronger but changed to friendship, laughter, generosity. The shadow pony was no more deserving of being banished than Discord or Nightmare moon but the pillars never gave him a chance. They assumed the worst and drove him to oppose them in a way the modern elements wouldn't and at the end he was redeemed because Twilight listened to Starlight rather than Starswirl when she saw Stygian. To the pillars Stygian didn't matter the pony of shadows had to be banished whereas to the elements the important thing was that there was a pony who could potentially be saved.

[Moony the Cat 3,697]

2 hours ago, Senko said:

I think it was meant to show the contrast between the pillars and elements. The pillars were all about banishing/destroying their enemies as shown by their different connections e.g. strenght, hope, sorcery whereas the elements from a modern, more peaceful time have not only grown stronger but changed to friendship, laughter, generosity. The shadow pony was no more deserving of being banished than Discord or Nightmare moon but the pillars never gave him a chance. They assumed the worst and drove him to oppose them in a way the modern elements wouldn't and at the end he was redeemed because Twilight listened to Starlight rather than Starswirl when she saw Stygian. To the pillars Stygian didn't matter the pony of shadows had to be banished whereas to the elements the important thing was that there was a pony who could potentially be saved.

Well, yes, i understood that but i still dont understand what the Shadow was , apparently it didnt let Stygian go, so the Shadow actually was a different Entity or not? But where did it come from? I meant with my question that, if the Shadow was just Stygian´s evil side, why did they have to banish anything? If they would just change Stygians personality, shouldnt he transform back, like Nightmare Moon and the shadow should just disappear?

But the Shadow still lasted while Stygian already was out and the fact that it still existed and they actually still banished it makes it seem like the Shadow was a different entity. And that is where my Questions come from, where did this Entity come from? It was never shown or even mentioned, the shadow was just there and infected him.

Unless i forgot something.

[Hierok 11,829]

On 12/15/2018 at 11:02 AM, Nanotek said:

Well, yes, i understood that but i still dont understand what the Shadow was , apparently it didnt let Stygian go, so the Shadow actually was a different Entity or not? But where did it come from? I meant with my question that, if the Shadow was just Stygian´s evil side, why did they have to banish anything? If they would just change Stygians personality, shouldnt he transform back, like Nightmare Moon and the shadow should just disappear?

But the Shadow still lasted while Stygian already was out and the fact that it still existed and they actually still banished it makes it seem like the Shadow was a different entity. And that is where my Questions come from, where did this Entity come from? It was never shown or even mentioned, the shadow was just there and infected him.

Unless i forgot something.

I think it was an Umbrum. They are locked in a shadow world, but with the help of Stygian it could break into the material world.

He didn't last long without Stygian. A couple of seconds, and it was all over for him...

Edited December 17, 2018 by Hierok

[Rushing cash 824]

This episode is huge, it brings back starswirl(a character that was mentioned a lot since what? season 2?), the legends we learned about this season(one of them was mentioned in season 5) and the pony of shadows who was referenced before, so they had to put a lot in 40 minutes and they did a great job, the story was engaging and makes sense and they managed to make most of the characters shine. It was nice to see starlight trying to save stygion, it shows how she has grown, she really shined in this episode. I have to say I liked starswirl portrayal here, he is smart and stern, that how I envisioned him to be, so I was really satisfied with his characterization.    

However, the episode had its problems, why no one pointed out that by bringing the pillars they will bring TPOS back to? It was so obvious, and all of the characters were so oblivious to it that it managed to annoy me(but considering that he was pretty weak villain it was the right choice), and twilight of all ponies should have thought of talking to stygion and talk him down like she did with starlight, so it felt like she was dumbed down a bit for this. The pony of shadows was a disappointing villain and to be honest my least favorite major antagonist in the show(excluding the storm king), but the point was not if they can defeat him, but in which way so it kind of understandable. 8\10

[SunburstRainbow2019 3]

These two episodes, I was ECSTATIC too see Starswirl return after we haven't seen him for years (7 seasons at least :p), but after the "daring" rescue from Twilight, it was at that moment that she knew... she bucked up. In the end though, I felt happy that Stygian got closure even though he was considered the pony of shadows, but the shadows didn't wanna let him go. Spider-Man 3 reference much?

[ndogmario 81]

OK I just revisited some strange details from the show that got me asking a lot of questions. It involves the Pony of Shadows ,hollowshade, and Apple Jack ,As well as princess Luna. 

From my knowledge  , Apple Jack's family had knowledge of the Pony of Shadows and said that it reside as remnants of Nightmare Moon in  The Castle of the Two Sisters.

 Apple Jack also stated that a branch of her family came from Hollowshade, which also seemed to  Have connections with the pony of shadows as there was an entire shrine dedicated to him underground. 

 Did a distant branch of Apple jacks ancestor partook in some sort of death cult that worships some kind of dark God? 

  And  If they did, they may have  took part in introducing Princess Luna  Or Stygian  Into becoming their respected evil selves. 

[Senko 459]

Perhaps there does seem to be a lot of dark magic in Equestria. It's all sunshine, cute fuzzy ponies and friendship till you start looking closely then you see the cockatrices, villains like Tirek or flyders. Look even deeper and you get things like the personality switching pool of evil, plants that reproduce via swamp fever or villains like Sombra. As I've said before Equestria is a candy coated deathworld with a lot of dark things left unexplored even by the end of the show.

[Thrond 3,257]

On second viewing, I'm a little more open to what this is trying to do. I see the idea of Twilight's hero worship blinding her to reasonable doubts, and I see that Starlight slowly breaks her down; at least Twilight is the one who goes after Stygian at the end, if only at first. But it's just not good enough; all of the characters have been reduced to mouthpieces, so there's barely any character development. Even accounting for her hero worship, Twilight's decisions in the first half are baffling; isn't she supposed to be the smart one? Later on, she's the only character who expresses some kind of doubt, and even gets to save Stygian at the end, but she can't even do that without Starlight backing her up. She's still ready to banish the Pony of Shadows until she sees Stygian, and so her realization that "oh yeah, sometimes the villains are still people" just isn't satisfying. 

Starlight's presence here sticks out like a sore thumb, which isn't helped by the fact that she doesn't blend with the other characters at all. At this point there just wasn't much to her aside from her past, but not only does her reference to it seem self-absorbed (even when she's talking about Stygian, she's really talking about herself), it serves as a reminder of how redundant this story is. We've already been through this a few times in Friendship is Magic alone, and Equestria Girls had done it a few more times on top of that. That fact - that Twilight personally oversaw Starlight's reformation, and was also present for every step of Discord's and Luna's - makes it all the harder to accept that she wouldn't accept Starlight's point, and it's absurd that a Princess would submit so easily to a perceived authority figure. And sue me, I want the main characters of a show called Friendship is Magic to at least consider trying friendship. 

It seems kinda like the writers didn't have enough time to fully develop their ideas, but the first half is mostly pointless, so why couldn't that have just been cut? I don't have any investment in the Pillars, who at this point were characters I had barely met and whose importance to Equestria is completely unconvincing. An entire episode is spent saving them, just for us to learn that this was the wrong decision. It seems like it only exists to compensate for the fact that Twilight's friends get nothing to do in the meatier second half, but all that first half amounts to is a MacGuffin hunt where half of the MacGuffins are acquired through implausible means. The Rarity scene is especially embarrassing - what, is it so hard to figure out that an overgrown garden could use a trim? I like that the map is only responding to outside inquiries in this one, though. 

I still think this has its funny moments, and I respect its ambition. But it's just so expository and heavy-handed. More often than not, characters talk to explain the plot, often offering each other's positions. But Twilight's and Starswirl's positions are so weak, and Starlight spends so much time pushing hers, that it's hard to take the wrong arguments seriously. So all that's left is cliched spectacle, but the mythology and imagery here are generic even by My Little Pony standards. That stuff just isn't what I watch the show for, and if it has to come at the expense of character, then my standards are way higher than this. There's an interesting idea somewhere in here, but it's been carelessly buried in a contrived cookie-cutter season finale. I'm so glad the later seasons let this show breathe again. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by AlexanderThrond

[Scrying Mind 12]

I particularly enjoyed these episodes because of how they pose questions not only to the characters, but to the audience. A core element of the episodes seems to be idol worship and the difficulty of accepting when someone you've been told such great things about turns out to be wrong. Starswirl had been mythologized to the point of faultlessness, but in the same way we wouldn't recognize the real-life Horatius as the same Hero at the Bridge, the ponies in the show didn't recognize Starswirl through what had been remembered of him. They're forced to cope with that, and most of them cope poorly. Twilight follows her consistent characterization of making bad decisions when she's worried about impressing her idols (which has earlier been shown with Celestia), and the other element bearers side with her. The only pony who doesn't get swayed into trust like this is Starlight. Moreover, we're shown that Starswirl had grabbed leadership for himself and discredited the other pillars enough to be the voice for them, and that they'd do and believe what he said.

The Pony of Shadows is a disappointing villain only if we need him to be a villain. He's propped up as this huge menace, but he fails to really do much. He kind of throws a temper tantrum and runs away to hide. This was jarring to me when I was watching it for the first time, but everything clicked when I realized I couldn't trust Starswirl. Honestly, I see Starswirl as the real villain of the episode, and it is a marvelous job for this type of "villain by arrogance and accident" going on.

Only Starlight managed to really take the initiative to help Stygian, but I don't think we can completely chalk that up to her having experienced being a villain before. I definitely see it much more as her irreverent, insolent attitude putting in real work of helping her question the ponies she's told to trust. After all, if it weren't for Twilight's blind idol worship with Starswirl, I absolutely think the Mane Six would have talked to Stygian sooner.

When I mentioned before about the episode posing a similar question to the viewers as to Twilight, I mean that I see a lot of complaints about how Starswirl is portrayed as unlikable when we expected him to be likable, or that Twilight wouldn't act like that (despite consistently making bad calls throughout the show when she has a chance to impress her idols). People consistently talk about the Pony of Shadows as "the villain of Shadow Play". The episode asks us if we are able and willing to accept when we're being lied to or misled by people we otherwise trust, and a lot of us have a very hard time with that.

[Lunaholic 892]

I just re watched this episode. Has to be one of my absolute favorites! Starswirl is such a cool character. I understood very well his "selfish" behavior but he also proved he's willing to learn from his own mistakes and he is not selfish at all. Twily's "fangirling" over him was also hilarious but it taught her a lesson as well. Overall awesome episode(s)

[Props Valroa 26,039]

I think this finale has a strong concept to it but it also has a lot of interesting themes including hero worship and the realization that heroes and celebrities are just normal people. Twilight had spent all of her life admiring Starswirl - only to actually meet him and largely be disappointed for the majority of the premise. I find the concept and moral lessons to be well done - but the actual execution of it leaves much to be desired. The Pony of Shadows was rather underwhelming and not very threatening. Starswirl himself was to blame for Stygian becoming a villain because he suspected very unkind things about him and didn't bother to talk it out with someone who he spent a lot of time with working on things previously. Starswirl as to how he was done in the finale fails to live up to the expectations of what he was always was for me, personally. 

I do definitely like Somnambula and Mage Meadowbrook as well as the other pillars but I feel like they would have worked better as independent characters rather than trying to tie them into the Elements of harmony. Stygian's feeling of rejection from his friends who he supported for so long - only to be turned away and claimed to be evil by his friends was something that was rather personally relatable for me - he only wanted to help. 

The weakest part of this finale for me was how the Pillars and Mane 6 interacted - as I feel that would have been better served for one on one episodes with the pillars focusing on their interactions one at a time to give them the focus they deserved. But for what it was, I think it was a strong finale but with some obvious flaws - but none that were bad enough that took away my enjoyment of it.