I want the debate pit to be removed

[Jeric 46,834]

9 minutes ago, Darth Porgus said:

New addition to forum rules "Discussions about politics, ideologies, religions, ethics and morals are not allowed here"? It will make us look incredibly dumb to say the least. 

Everything you said is pretty spot on, but I want to single out this part, because it's something that the members (non-staff and staff alike) generally agree on. Even though this site has a population of younger people, and some who feel deeply about many issues, most of us are mature enough to act civilly when we want to. 

I feel that baby proofing DP to remove politics is silly and, quite frankly, slightly off-putting to the majority of people who carry themselves like any reasonable pony loving adult should. 

I said that last line with a straight face, because I meant it. Trump debates have nothing on Starlight Glimmer debates.

 

[ChikaChan 7,320]

I just pretend that section is like coruscant's underworld

[Cwanky 17,455]

The debate pit is a place of political, social and religious discourse. Sure we disagree a lot and things can even get very nasty and personal, but that's a sacrifice we are willing and must make. Freedom includes freedom of speech and allowing even the most hateful or disagreeable forms of expression, as long as no one else is hurt. That's the beautiful part of society we can emulate in democracies. People are entitled to fair and equal treatment even if they hate each other. The alternatives are often less than desirable.

Just as there's light and dark, Discord  and Harmony, there's the good and bad we must often accept in a more tolerant peaceful world. Its a small but meaningful sacrifice to dwell upon in this global world.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[PonyMage 227]

On 10/20/2017 at 9:48 PM, Mesme Rize said:

Normally i refrain myself from saying anything bad about this forum, because i love this place and alot of people here have always been good to me.

But the debate pit is the most toxic place on this whole forum and it has been especially bad in the last few months. It seems like 80% of the time anything political comes up (especially when it comes to our current US President) it turns into a bickering and fingerpointing war on both sides and the people who try to reason for a bit are just left in the dust. In the worst case, threads are locked and users are banned from the topic, making them feel unwelcome because they might see this as an attack on their political believes.

I know that this is quite an extreme request, but how much does it actually benefit our community? I feel like it only damages this place more then it actually helps and i would love it if we all could get along together, instead of feeling distant from another.

Sadly, this is apparently the nature of debates in general on the Internet.

Actually, I guess it's real life debates too.

They usually seem to devolve into attempts by both sides to gain moral highground so they can bury the opposition. Far too often, it's just glorified crap-slinging, instead of  discussion on how a mutually beneficial solution can be found for the good of all concerned.

[Mirage 24,133]

Debate is a threatening situation to be in. This is why it often steers from 'discussion' to a 'contest'. Those of us who are experienced in debate understand that such a forum is not for everyone. This is not meant to insult anyone, it's just a fact. Even the highly trained and educated can resort to the contest, which is why any formal debate has a real-time moderator.

I personally do not feel a 'debate pit' should be part of a forum. Instead, there should be an 'off topic' forum where such edgy topics can be brought up, but as soon as the first personal attack is thrown, it's locked. Pretty soon, most get the idea and they don't bother with the contentious behavior anymore. (Obvious antagonizing is outright deleted). So as long as the forum rules are clear about what is acceptable and what is not, I have found this to be manageable.

I also believe it is important that the leadership engage in private messages with those who are getting aggressive and talk it over with them - let them blow off steam in PM. As an admin on another forum - I get lots of mud thrown at me - but it's all good. It preserves the serenity of the forum as a whole.

[Jeric 46,834]

2 hours ago, SpookySpoop said:

Actually, I guess it's real life debates too.

Only in non-academic circles. Family and friend IRL debates will usually have some form of built in brake, even if it's simple fear motivated. I wouldn't call what Politicians do ... debate. At least not modern politicians. In academic debate ... it's civil to the point it's almost adorable. XD

 

You are right about internet discourse. That is likely never going to change as long as one individual feels safe from legitimate social reprisal of his or her approach. This is further helped by the fact that you many many people you aren't a person. On the internet you are an avatar to most people. A representation of a person. Its hard to get past the abstraction that is part and parcel of the method of rapid textual communication. 

2 hours ago, Mirage said:

I also believe it is important that the leadership engage in private messages with those who are getting aggressive and talk it over with them - let them blow off steam in PM. As an admin on another forum - I get lots of mud thrown at me - but it's all good. It preserves the serenity of the forum as a whole.

You ... you get out of my philosophy!

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I actually still have mud on me from my day as an Admin here ... and that was some time ago. 

 

[Phill 1,285]

You could always avoid it

[Libra 11,690]

Actually, i disagree now.

as much as i hate the debate pit with every fiber in my body, its pretty much a containment board for provative posts. If we remove that, then all that will be free to go to wherever. I dont like it, but with the debate pit, that political hostility is at least contained into one section, much to our delight, and since debate pit posts no longer appear on stuff, its best to just leave it be.

[Fhaolan 4,468]

Just as a note, every time IP.B issues a significant 'update' to their software a lot of the various add-ons and apps connected to it also need to be updated, and sometimes the configuration stuff gets automatically reset to 'default' conditions. So if you notice debate pit/life advice stuff showing up in the New Post and New Topics again, or similar stuff, ping me to let me know. There's some things that we just have to manually mess with every time IP.B does their thing.

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

Here's my view.

1. I say, don't remove the forum. Maybe put in a subforum purely for political discussion? I have to agree with those who are saying that if the forum is removed, then the threads will be posted all over. At least if there's a specific forum for contentious topics, you have the option to avoid it like the plague, which you wouldn't have if the threads were posted randomly on forums.

2. Toxic? Haha. The Debate Pit compared to some other sites I have been on is like comparing Britney Spears to Blackie Lawless. I have been on some debate forums where the fighting is severe; one just has one rule, that of "no personal information or dragging arguments into RL" and back in the forum's heydey, was a veritable snake pit of scrapping and scratching people's eyes out. Most of the people here who post disagreeable topics seem to be more on the level of petulant children than trolls.

3. Excessive moderation is not the answer. I have left sites where the mods have gripped the forums with a stranglehold, making it impossible to have a debate, as any opinions that differ to those of the forum owner were savagely excised, and people were even banned for the paltry reason of posting negative threads. It's not a good state to have.

[Here No Longer 5,270]

Yes, get rid of it. Please. While your at it, remove any posts that have such potential to cause such toxicity. My opinion on this since I posted on my old account has become far more against its existence.

On 1/21/2018 at 1:03 PM, Pripyat Pony said:

2. Toxic? Haha. The Debate Pit compared to some other sites I have been on is like comparing Britney Spears to Blackie Lawless. I have been on some debate forums where the fighting is severe; one just has one rule, that of "no personal information or dragging arguments into RL" and back in the forum's heydey, was a veritable snake pit of scrapping and scratching people's eyes out. Most of the people here who post disagreeable topics seem to be more on the level of petulant children than trolls.

I've been to some of the most toxic places on the internet, and I must say the debate pit on here is literally the worst thing I've ever seen. Literally half of the time when I post something, I get verbally attacked for having the opinion I do, and then the poster tries in a childish attempt to act like I'm the toxic one. It's gotten far worse over the time I've spent on this forum between both of my accounts. It used to be only as bad as you described one time (it was a good few years back). Wish it could have stayed that way, personally. Instead, the debate pit became a hub full of temperamental toddlers (aside from a couple of regulars) where everyone tries to act like their opinion is 100% fact and attack anybody who disagrees with them. Literally every other thread ends up getting so bad that mods have to intervene and a lot of the time even lock the threads entirely. It's even worse there than it is on the Paladins subreddit where there was a whole thread attacking me for disagreeing with the general consensus on the game there. Still worse in the Debate Pit, at least there it wasn't every other thread it gets so bad as it does here. Worse than even YouTube comments, because at least most of the time the comments sections aren't filled with people who get their feelings hurt so easily that they feel the need to launch verbal assaults on other people. 

[Jeric 46,834]

@Duzzkey it is not more toxic than YouTube comments on political videos. Dig through Ben Shapiro or TYT for about an hour. Yikes. Even Facebook is pretty bad in any political page. The reason that YT and 4chan have more bite is because there is far less accountability on there. Here, you can and will be suspended or banned if you continue being abusive. 

Though I doubt that the 50% rate of staff intervention per topic you mentioned is accurate, a higher than average presence there makes sense since they read everything in debate pit and often preemptively address issues far more in DP than any other area. Another thing to factor in is that the community often reports posts in that area at a higher rate seemingly because they get their jimmies rustled when someone is a bit more aggressive though not abusive. That alone would prompt a staff post to remind people to relax a little. 

If DP isn't your thing, just stay clear of it. That's a measure of control that each member here possesses that more need to apply. 

 

This thread has been up since October. This isn't the only one to request the removal of DP. There have been many requests to can that area. It hasn't happened yet, and it likely never will. 

[Here No Longer 5,270]

6 minutes ago, Jeric said:

@Duzzkey it is not more toxic than YouTube comments on political videos. Dig through Ben Shapiro or TYT for about an hour. Yikes. Even Facebook is pretty bad in any political page. The reason that YT and 4chan have more bite is because there is far less accountability on there. Here, you can and will be suspended or banned if you continue being abusive. 

 

If DP isn't your thing, just stay clear of it. That's a measure of control that each member here possesses that more need to apply. 

 

This thread has been up since October. This isn't the only one to request the removal of DP. There have been many requests to can that area. It hasn't happened yet, and it likely never will. 

I've dug through TYT videos for an eternity and have gone through little as bad as I and others have here trying to say anything. I've seen less vocal attacks there than here. I used to watch a channel that was sponsored by TYT, and get almost every video they posted in my recommended videos lists.  There's some serious children there, but comparatively, not as bad as the Debate Pit on this otherwise relatively friendly site.

DP would be my thing if I didn't have to deal with children in there that knew how to have a proper, civilized discussion and not toddlers, as is the case. People who likely (though I admit not provably) have committed enough offenses there alone to get banned twice over, launching a vocal attack every time somebody disagrees with them on anything. I've only posted in about 12 topics there, and out of those 12, 5 times has the discussion be derailed by that very problem. Really, none of those have been my issue, it's everyone else bashing my opinion because it's apparently not okay to disagree with them whatsoever. At least on TYT and the subreddit where I'd get attacked by people for similar reasons, it wasn't this bad. Heck, even League of Legends toxicity is barely worse than this.

That's a shame really, because that cesspool is a serious stain on this site. Post your opinion and get attacked. I only post there to post an opinion on something and then some thin-skinned crybaby acts like I'm insulting them and goes out on the attack.

 

[honk friend 1,972]

On 12/21/2017 at 12:26 PM, Fennekin said:

Actually, i disagree now.

as much as i hate the debate pit with every fiber in my body, its pretty much a containment board for provative posts. If we remove that, then all that will be free to go to wherever. I dont like it, but with the debate pit, that political hostility is at least contained into one section, much to our delight, and since debate pit posts no longer appear on stuff, its best to just leave it be.

On 1/21/2018 at 12:03 PM, Pripyat Pony said:

I say, don't remove the forum. Maybe put in a subforum purely for political discussion? I have to agree with those who are saying that if the forum is removed, then the threads will be posted all over. At least if there's a specific forum for contentious topics, you have the option to avoid it like the plague, which you wouldn't have if the threads were posted randomly on forums.

The debate pit isn't a containment board. If it gets removed that doesn't give people free reign to post whatever provocative or political horse shit they want in other sections. It's as simple as adding a new rule if the board gets deleted, and even then I'm pretty sure that rule is already in place. At best I could say it gives argumentative people an outlet, which is a plenty valid reason to keep it going, but if being provocative or starting debates out in the open is clearly against the rules then folks can learn to deal with it or leave. Nobody likes unwarranted opinions.

45 minutes ago, Jeric said:

@Duzzkey it is not more toxic than YouTube comments on political videos. Dig through Ben Shapiro or TYT for about an hour. Yikes. Even Facebook is pretty bad in any political page. The reason that YT and 4chan have more bite is because there is far less accountability on there. Here, you can and will be suspended or banned if you continue being abusive. 

Though I doubt that the 50% rate of staff intervention per topic you mentioned is accurate, a higher than average presence there makes sense since they read everything in debate pit and often preemptively address issues far more in DP than any other area. Another thing to factor in is that the community often reports posts in that area at a higher rate seemingly because they get their jimmies rustled when someone is a bit more aggressive though not abusive. That alone would prompt a staff post to remind people to relax a little. 

If DP isn't your thing, just stay clear of it. That's a measure of control that each member here possesses that more need to apply. 

 

This thread has been up since October. This isn't the only one to request the removal of DP. There have been many requests to can that area. It hasn't happened yet, and it likely never will. 

The debate pit isn't nearly as bad as most outlets out there, but it's still a negative/toxic environment. There's no bare minimum save for a 100 post count and some basic rules to follow. Otherwise you can post whatever nonsense you want. There's no standard for honesty, there's hardly a standard for kindness, and there's no standard for the actual quality of the discussion that goes on there. The debate pit could be a decent place if it didn't FEEL like a containment area as people suggest it to be. It has this pervasive culture I've seen in so many other unregulated debate communities, where victory is the end-goal and people are constantly looking for opportunities to shut their opponents down. Essentially I'm sick of posting in the debate pit fearing I'll get stuck in a reply chain that I have nothing to intellectually gain from, I'm sick of feeling like I can't just throw in the towel when that happens, I'm sick of the constant narrative being pushed there by cis people that trans people (and me, by extension) are mentally ill, don't deserve to have their identities recognized, are sexually confused, or don't have a basic understanding of biology, and I'm sick of baseless claims, petty semantics, intellectual dishonesty, personal accusations, and the debate pit overall. I think the forum would be better off without it but I understand it's not going anywhere and I'm probably going to continue to use it despite everything.

[Libra 11,690]

2 minutes ago, Annie said:

The debate pit isn't a containment board. If it gets removed that doesn't give people free reign to post whatever provocative or political horse shit they want in other sections. It's as simple as adding a new rule if the board gets deleted, and even then I'm pretty sure that rule is already in place. At best I could say it gives argumentative people an outlet, which is a plenty valid reason to keep it going, but if being provocative or starting debates out in the open is clearly against the rules then folks can learn to deal with it or leave. Nobody likes unwarranted opinions.

The debate pit isn't nearly as bad as most outlets out there, but it's still a negative/toxic environment. There's no bare minimum save for a 100 post count and some basic rules to follow. Otherwise you can post whatever nonsense you want. There's no standard for honesty, there's hardly a standard for kindness, and there's no standard for the actual quality of the discussion that goes on there. The debate pit could be a decent place if it didn't FEEL like a containment area as people suggest it to be. It has this pervasive culture I've seen in so many other unregulated debate communities, where victory is the end-goal and people are constantly looking for opportunities to shut their opponents down. Essentially I'm sick of posting in the debate pit fearing I'll get stuck in a reply chain that I have nothing to intellectually gain from, I'm sick of feeling like I can't just throw in the towel when that happens, I'm sick of the constant narrative being pushed there by cis people that trans people (and me, by extension) are mentally ill, don't deserve to have their identities recognized, are sexually confused, or don't have a basic understanding of biology, and I'm sick of baseless claims, petty semantics, intellectual dishonesty, personal accusations, and the debate pit overall. I think the forum would be better off without it but I understand it's not going anywhere and I'm probably going to continue to use it despite everything.

good point.

im sorry.

[honk friend 1,972]

1 minute ago, Fennekin said:

good point.

im sorry.

You have nothing to apologize for

[Jeric 46,834]

This is going to come across as elitist, but I don't really care. I mean this for people who are die-hard liberals and conservatives and libertarians that post in the debate pit. 

Most of the people that post in there aren't going to breach the boomarang effect no matter how well intentioned and reasoned their arguments are. I usually go by the four count rule. If after four posts, no ground has been given either way, I simply walk away. If I want to have a discussion of value, I have no shortage of educated friends and colleagues of varying political views that I reach out to. My knowledge and perspective grows this way. 

At one point I actually cited academic studies and research using APA or MLA rules. Even that didn't help. I tried to elevate discussion that way, but some of documents are unfortunately behind academic database paywalls that users here would only have access to if they were attending University or paid for a subscription. Hard to have a good debate when the other side can't read what I can. I also can't expect everyone here to understand the details behind concepts like GBM, and I'm not about to teach people advanced statistics. I don't have that time, and I honestly wonder how many would grasp it. 

Opinions are also fine, provided there is some manner of cogency, but if you police intelligence there .... you are playing with fire. 

[Libra 11,690]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

You have nothing to apologize for

fair enough.

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

I might come across as assuming things, but a few of the posters using the debate pit come across as snowflake millenials who hate opinions that they disagree with and therefore want it banned for that reason. O_o That is not the answer; I try to walk away if someone just isn't accepting of an opinion of mine, rather than continue with somepony who is refusing to consider another's opinion, even when backed up with sources. Maybe we need a subform for the really tough topics with only people approved allowed there, I don't know.

[Jeric 46,834]

You know what? Screw this ... I'm being way too nice. In this topic we have a person advocating for the removal of the area based on toxic discourse. That individual posted the following in debate pit ... 

Spoiler

Is there any point to this reply or did you feel like writing something disjointed for the hell of it?

That reply was to an individual who simply repeated what he said earlier, yet he was rather neutral with his statement. I'm not naming names ... but come on ... 

 

Le sigh

 

You don't get to say there is a problem if you are part of the problem. I'm snarky and salty in there. I bite when I see regurgitation and sound bites. I can pull out my verbal scalpel with similar deftness as the above quote. But ... I'm not advocating for DP to be shut down when my values run counter to someone else's. I'm not calling for it's closure because I think I'm more informed. And I'm most certainly not going to be a hypocrite and suggest that it is toxic. 

 

Walk away and be an adult if it's not for you instead of wanting to grab your ball and go home. 

[honk friend 1,972]

3 hours ago, Jeric said:

You know what? Screw this ... I'm being way too nice. In this topic we have a person advocating for the removal of the area based on toxic discourse. That individual posted the following in debate pit ... 

  Hide contents

Is there any point to this reply or did you feel like writing something disjointed for the hell of it?

That reply was to an individual who simply repeated what he said earlier, yet he was rather neutral with his statement. I'm not naming names ... but come on ... 

 

Le sigh

 

You don't get to say there is a problem if you are part of the problem. I'm snarky and salty in there. I bite when I see regurgitation and sound bites. I can pull out my verbal scalpel with similar deftness as the above quote. But ... I'm not advocating for DP to be shut down when my values run counter to someone else's. I'm not calling for it's closure because I think I'm more informed. And I'm most certainly not going to be a hypocrite and suggest that it is toxic. 

 

Walk away and be an adult if it's not for you instead of wanting to grab your ball and go home. 

I'm gonna call myself out and say yes, I am very aggressive and I treat the debate pit the same way everybody else does. I'm not gonna act like I don't contribute to the status quo there because that WOULD make me a hypocrite, I just get exhausted playing by the same rules with the same people pushing the same narrative. I don't necessarily think the section should be removed, I just don't feel like it adds anything positive to the forum.

5 hours ago, Pripyat Pony said:

I might come across as assuming things, but a few of the posters using the debate pit come across as snowflake millenials who hate opinions that they disagree with and therefore want it banned for that reason. O_o That is not the answer; I try to walk away if someone just isn't accepting of an opinion of mine, rather than continue with somepony who is refusing to consider another's opinion, even when backed up with sources. Maybe we need a subform for the really tough topics with only people approved allowed there, I don't know.

Calling people snowflake millennials isn't the most professional way to get your point across.
I don't hate opinions I disagree with, I hate it when certain opinions become a platform to give people an excuse to spread hate. I've lost count of how many times I've been told I'm mentally ill for being trans, or that black folks are statistically inferior, or that Muslims love to rape Europeans, or whatever else have you. I get those are technically valid viewpoints, but the actual issues are a lot more nuanced. I wouldn't have as big an issue with those opinions if the point wasn't seen as the bottom line and if people would budge past them.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Annie

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

 

Calling people snowflake millennials isn't the most professional way to get your point across.

Maybe not, but it seems to have gotten the point across. If it doesn't apply to you, (I was not referring to you personally, but you seem to have taken it so) then you have no reason to be insulted. I was merely referring to people who seem to get offended at every little thing and therefore want those things banned, rather than taking the adult way and simply avoiding or ignoring those things. Basically, if the debate pit offends a person, then that person can choose to not enter it. However, I see no reason to ruin the enjoyment of everypony who likes the debate pit, and who can discuss things in a reasonable fashion.

[ZethaPonderer 2,196]

Removing the Debate Pit will only breed even more toxicity within MLP Forums as some users and legions of Anonymous will be overpowered and shall have something to fight for. Their right to express their opposing arguments under any means necessary. You essentially turn them into Freedom Fighters (or Keyboard Warriors who'll express and spread their toxicity in other places within MLP Forums same thing IMO).

 

Let's define the meaning of Debate under Noun via Oxford Dictionary,

A formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward and which usually ends with a vote. (Oxford Dictionary)

 

Another meaning of Debate under Intransitive Verb via Merriam Webster Dictionary are these,
1. obsolete : fight, contend
2. a : to contend in words
   b : to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments

 

If you have issues with Debate Pit then just understand that it was YOUR CHOICE. You don't have to feel like you're compelled or simply give in to reading anything in Debate Pit. However, you can bring in opposing viewpoints with logic and evidence to educate the unwillingly ignorant in a formal light and see where his/her argument goes from there.

 

What needs to be under control however are the insults and harassment that can occur in Debate Pit since some people are born with a mentality to win from everything (which doesn't help us perceive/tolerate/appreciate opposing arguments with their truth thus defeating the purpose of having a Debate) or just simply not give a      st and be an outright pessimistic cynical troll (which doesn't help the point of having a Debate at all ).

 

To Debate justly, you must understand that not everyone will agree to your viewpoints and they're entitled to that whether you like it or not. You can just say your peace as formally and carefully as you possibly can with logic and evidence. Don't debate to win or to troll people, you debate to learn and get schooled. I know I did.

[Jeric 46,834]

3 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

Don't debate to win or to troll people, you debate to learn and get schooled.

You may have just typed the most important sentence in this entire topic. There is a certain discipline that it takes to separate yourself and your strongly held values from the opposing view -- to step back and be able to consider it thoughtfully. 

That doesn't mean that at the end of the day you will alter your stance, but it takes a wise person to enter a discussion prior to saying a word, conceding to themselves that they might be wrong, or at the very least, there is more to discover about the topic.

[Total Lunar Eclipse 515]

I love debates. It's where I go when I feel like being challenged and thinking critically (also when I'm in the mood to deal with people who might never agree with me even if I'm right, haha). 

Even if it's not perfect, and if people squabble, it's good for people to learn the skill. Civil debating is something you learn with age if exposed. Without any exposure, without mistakes or failures, people will be less able to handle disagreement in their everyday lives. imo The MLP forum is a good place to exercise this skill.

They should get moderated if they step out of line and insulting people, but I hope the debates section can still stick around.