Justice For All: Starlight's Inclusion is Unbalanced

[KH7672 1,604]

OBJECTION!

Whoops, sorry, wrong kind of forum commentary...ahem so I recently came across a very well thought out argument among the nonsense that is Equestria Daily's comment section:

People don't like Starlight Glimmer because she was never given any justice for her actions from the beginning. Now this is not saying they want her thrown jail, (they know the show they're dealing with), however the justice they want is a balance scale from the show's characterization to give her inclusion worthwhile meaning. She's given a second chance yet all she does with it is purposely halt development, mess things up, and ride by on minor victories. If the show wants to deal with her mental issues fine but the balance should not be continuously thrown off against other characters lives to do it.

I find it interesting this idea that Starlight is seen as not benefiting others lives and instead is now another burden to be dealt with in her episodes never once making her inclusion anything worthwhile. I would argue that she never displayed any physically harmful ideas until "To Change A Changeling" and even in her first appearence in "The Crystalling" she contributed to the situation by getting over her anxiety herself and talking to Sunburst for help.

Still this is a solid argument that I'd love to hear more from both sides on. The idea that justice has not been properly given to the audience for Starlight's inclusion in the show.

Edited November 8, 2017 by KH7672

[Photon Jet 5,491]

Despite everything, Starlight Glimmer's still a fantastic character.

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

So, this idea is, of course, nothing new. It’s been thrown around since day one. I do have some problems with the argument, and they’re pretty ironic given your post title.

Justice for All: The main six and Spike have done things worthy of punishment, yet they always get away with it, sometimes without even a lecture or word of censure.

Applejack gave more than a dozen ponies food poisoning through negligence, Twilight had her infamous “lesson zero” moment where she brainwashed the whole town into a full on brawl, Dash sabotaged the weather factory, potentially causing a drought and starving millions. These are just examples off the top of my head, I can go and find more examples if I wanted, but the point is that ponies escaping “justice” is nothing new. It would actually be unjust for Twilight and the others to punish Starlight when they themselves have gotten away with so much.

The second problem is that the absolute worst thing we know Starlight did was lie and steal. (Oh, and stalking)

Starlight built her village from the ground up as we saw in Rock Solid Friendship. Her villagers came to her and joined her village because they wanted somewhere to belong bad enough that they were willing to live by the rules she set forth, and one of those rules was no Cutie marks. They weren’t mad about her rules, they were mad about how she wasn’t following them herself. So, the only ones she has really wronged was Twilight and her friends. Which leads me to my final point.

Twilights willingness to forgive Starlight, and I do mean forgive, without preconditions like a punishment, is why she is the Princess of Friendship. I have always been of the opinion that while Twilight claimed for herself the title “Princess of Friendship” in  Twilights Kingdom, The Cutie Remark is where she earned that title. By forgiving someone who didn’t deserve it, and, by offering her friendship, Twilight was able to create a way they both won. And with everything Starlight accomplishes, Twilight is proven right.

Forgiveness and understanding are the most important parts of friendship, it’s how Twilight earned her key, how she talked down Starlight, how she saved Stygian, and I imagine it’s a trend that is going to continue.

[KH7672 1,604]

17 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

So, this idea is, of course, nothing new. It’s been thrown around since day one. I do have some problems with the argument, and they’re pretty ironic given your post title.

Etc...

It's actually why I brought this post up again. I get that you feel she has no need for punishment and plenty of people have moved past that. What the issue I'm seeing now is, what has that show done to merit Starlight's inclusion. This argument is less for character motivations and more the show.

This argument stems from all the other reformed character:

Sunset-Rose to the occasion to join the team in Rainbow Rocks and has since become the designated leader.

Discord-Rightfully untrusted until he redeems himself in "Twilight's Kingdom" for the good of his friends and not his benefit

Even Tempest Shadow-

Spoiler

Willingly sacrificed her life being turned to stone to save the Mane 6.

There is a overwhelming lack in Starlight's appearences that show any good being brought upon the characters that instead have to deal with her than benefit from her.

It's crazy because the characters still have to deal with Discord, albeit after his redemption so that may be the key. Starlight is messing around before she properly redeemed in the audience's eyes (which most agree is in To Where and Back Again but was that too little too late)

I want to say this idea of character balance is not something that should be applied as a set in stone show method and instead a trope that can be messed with using an interesting unsympathetic character but maybe I'm being too optimistic.

[Victoria Sponge 1,017]

She doesn't mean to mess up but she can't help it, it's not a bad thing that she does either because her flaws stop her from being generic or overpowered. I think she's a great addition to the cast and she's definitely not a burden since she's actually saved the day in quite a few situations, most notably the season 7 finale where she was the only one who questioned Starswirl and realised that Stygian was misunderstood.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Battenberg

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

25 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

There is a overwhelming lack in Starlight's appearences that show any good being brought upon the characters that instead have to deal with her than benefit from her.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but this seems like an awfully cold-blooded approach to character developement. Starlight might mess up more than she helps, but... so what? She has a lot to learn, and in a show where the goal of each episode is to learn something, she’s going to be the lesson punching bag for a while. I’m not really sure what it is you’re implying. That Starlight doesn’t deserve the forgiveness she was given?

Edited November 8, 2017 by ShootingStar159

[KH7672 1,604]

15 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but this seems like an awfully cold-blooded approach to character developement.

I apologize these aren't entirely my thoughts. I'm trying to approach these arguments from the opposite side as unbiased as possible so let me try to give the argument more concise.

17 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

She has a lot to learn, and in a show where the goal of each episode is to learn something, she’s going to be the lesson punching bag for a while. I’m not really sure what it is you’re implying. That Starlight doesn’t deserve the forgiveness she was given?

The argument is not that she doesn't deserve forgiveness but that she's not doing much with that forgiveness. Slacking on lessons, relying too much on magic, and jumping to conclusions too often. We are seeing all these redemptions from Sunset, Discord, and Tempest and how they prove themselves to the main characters but Starlight's characterization has been more of building herself back up and less building up other characters like Discord with Fluttershy and Twilight or Sunset with Human Twilight. But when she does (Trixie, Princesses, Pharynx) she is still messing up the dynamic making mistakes.

[Jeric 46,867]

Considering Starlight willingly submitted herself for punishment, shouldn't the annoyance be focused on the character that didn't dole out said punishment? I mean, Starlight herself agreed that she likely deserved something ... but ... Twilight does the forgiveness with no penalty thing. 

Honestly ... when I see this complaint it comes across as not wanting lightsabers in Star Wars, magic in Harry Potter, time travel in Quantum Leap, etc. Redemption with few ramifications is a recurring theme in FiM. So why do people focus on Starlight? I posit that a few people in the fandom suggested that this is how they look at it. Humans are so easily persuaded when they are in the process of forming an opinion, that sometimes they don't realize they jacked another's opinion without being aware of it.

Now, I continue to maintain that the motivation for her Town and Cutie Mark free approach was not as skillfully developed and presented as it could have been, but I can't fault the redemption without punishment unless I'm willing to reject a clear and established tenet of the show. Basically, I believe that there were issues with Starlight at one point, so don't think I'm defending the character simply because I like her current development. I call it as I see it, not how others see it..

Basically, I am not a Borg. 

Just now, KH7672 said:

I apologize these aren't entirely my thoughts

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

I apologize these aren't entirely my thoughts. I'm trying to approach these arguments from the opposite side as unbiased as possible so let me try to give the argument more concise.

Fair enough.

1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

The argument is not that she doesn't deserve forgiveness but that she's not doing much with that forgiveness. Slacking on lessons, relying too much on magic, and jumping to conclusions too often. We are seeing all these redemptions from Sunset, Discord, and Tempest and how they prove themselves to the main characters but Starlight's characterization has been more of building herself back up and less building up other characters like Discord with Fluttershy and Twilight or Sunset with Human Twilight. But when she does (Trixie, Princesses, Pharynx) she is still messing up the dynamic making mistakes.

First off, I’m in the camp that says Discord is a tool who isn’t trying to be better at all, and that Discordant Harmony was the show’s first attempt to cast him in any sort of decent light. Discord might not be trying to control Equestria anymore, but I find the idea that he’s trying to work for any sort of redemption like Starlight or Sunset to be optimistic. But let’s go past that.

The argument that she isn’t doing enough with the chance she’s been given is highly subjective, and largely depends on what you want to see from a character. Some people prefer Sunset’s instant turn around, even if it meant large negative parts of her character needed to be erased. Some prefer Starlight’s constant mistakes, that even though she’s trying, she still fails.

I don’t have a preference either way, I just want to see both characters to try. And at the very least, I don’t think anyone can say Starlight isn’t trying. The idea that she has to do more good than harm is, as I said, pretty cold-blooded, so it isn’t so much that I think she’s done enough good to offset any bad she’s done, I straight out reject the premise that she has to.

Edited November 8, 2017 by ShootingStar159

[Concerned Bystander 2,904]

2 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

The second problem is that the absolute worst thing we know Starlight did was lie and steal. (Oh, and stalking)

I would have said the worst thing she did was take pleasure in inflicting pain on others, rather worse than stealing and lying I think.  And of course she used mind control magic on her friends, although that was after her reformation but apparently before she had learned anything about not being an utterly reprehensible pony.

[KH7672 1,604]

9 minutes ago, Concerned Bystander said:

I would have said the worst thing she did was take pleasure in inflicting pain on others, rather worse than stealing and lying I think. 

I'm sorry what pain? Do you mean the cutie mark removal spell? I'm pretty sure it's only painful if the subject is resisting, which I doubt most of the village ponies did as she said she only offered an escape for those that wanted...unless you get too curious to be able to leave freely.

[Ivan The Adorable 304]

Before even approaching the debate about justice being necessary, I'm not sure I understand this argument at all. Even from Season 6 where I thought her inclusion into the main cast was clunky and poorly supported until very late in the season, my opinion is that she has learned from her mistakes and contributed positively in most episodes.

-She has helped Twilight get over her own failures as a teacher by being a student with a strong sense of purpose

-She has contributed actively to a more full and sincere reformation of Trixie

-She has provided enrichment in character and bridged connections for much of the supporting cast, including Spike, Maud Pie, Ember, Discord, Thorax, Celestia and Luna

The major weakness of the character is that she kind of exists separately from the Mane 6 and doesn't benefit from or interact with them much, but individually she's done more than enough by my count to register as a worthwhile character.

[Concerned Bystander 2,904]

12 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I'm sorry what pain? Do you mean the cutie mark removal spell? I'm pretty sure it's only painful if the subject is resisting, which I doubt most of the village ponies did as she said she only offered an escape for those that wanted...unless you get too curious to be able to leave freely.

Allow me to present you with exhibit A.  The picture on the left is Twilight's face during the cutie mark removal procedure, I'm sure you'd agree that she does not look happy.  On the right is Starlight's face while she is administering said procedure, this is not the face of somepony that is thinking 'I'm so sorry I have to do this, but it's for the greater good'.  That is the expression of a pony that is reveling in the suffering that she is inflicting on another.

I would not be inclined to have sympathy for Starlight if she had (as she ought to) been sentenced to a couple of years in the dungeons of Canterlot Palace.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Concerned Bystander

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

4 minutes ago, Concerned Bystander said:

Allow me to present you with exhibit A.  The picture on the left is Twilight's face during the cutie mark removal procedure, I'm sure you'd agree that she does not look happy.  On the right is Starlight's face while she is administering said procedure, this is not the face of somepony that is thinking 'I'm so sorry I have to do this, but it's for the greater good'.  That is the expression of a pony that is reveling in the suffering that she is inflicting on another.

I would not be inclined to have sympathy for Starlight if she had (as she ought to) been sentenced to a couple of years in the dungeons of Canterlot Palace.

Or, you know, that could just be her relishing her victory, and you’re letting your dislike of her here color you perception. I’m pretty sure the writers weren’t implying she’s a sadist, and that’s just you projecting.

[Hierok 11,832]

The only thing bothering me is that the ponies of 'our town' just forgive her for everything in less then 2 seconds. An episode dedicated to that would be better.

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

2 minutes ago, Hierok said:

The only thing bothering me is that the ponies of 'our town' just forgive her for everything in less then 2 seconds. An episode dedicated to that would be better.

I dislike how rushed it was, id rather it have been the plot of the season six premier. But with everything we know about the village and Starlight, I have no problem believing they could forgive her.

[Hierok 11,832]

1 minute ago, ShootingStar159 said:

I dislike how rushed it was, id rather it have been the plot of the season six premier. But with everything we know about the village and Starlight, I have no problem believing they could forgive her.

They would, but not in less then a minute please. First talk about it and show you care for each other. If they replaced "28 pranks" later with "My little town?" season would be better.

[Concerned Bystander 2,904]

3 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

Or, you know, that could just be her relishing her victory

Oh, I'm absolutely sure she was relishing her victory, she certainly wasn't letting Twilight's suffering diminish her enjoyment of the moment.

The very nature of the cartoon is about forgiveness and friendship, so it's never going to come as any kind of surprise when a villain is unconditionally forgiven and the only punishment they are given is whatever guilt (if any) that they carry within themselves.  The positive nature of the cartoon means that this will always be the case, because that is the message that they want to give to the younger audience, that nobody is so bad that they can't change given the right motivation, and that there is enough forgiveness in the world for anyone.  We may have had a couple of exceptions in the form of Sombra and Tirek, but where forgiveness is an important lesson, so is the fact that your actions have consequences, and that even in a world as perfect as Equestria you may be held to account for your actions... unless you apologise for them apparently.

[cmarston1 5,960]

I may like Starlight now, however I am still disappointed that we never got an episode focusing on her trying to earn the forgiveness of the ponies from her ex village.

It feels like a really missed opportunity and is something that could have helped me into liking her earlier.

Heck it could even given more insight into her past motivations as a villain and having her face a more external conflict for a change could have helped made her reformation more interesting.

Also we could have gotten some more insight into the ponies from the village who with the exception of Sugar Belle, haven't done anything outside of the season 5 premiere.

[Thrond 3,263]

For a while, it annoyed me that Starlight could keep messing up without affecting anyone's perception of her, and season 7 made this worse by generally giving her positive reinforcement for her mistakes. In "All Bottled Up," she gets away with lying to Twilight, and in "A Royal Problem," she inflicts physical modifications on the princesses entirely without consent, and is then told that was the right call. See, though, her misdeeds make her a more interesting character. It's the fact that they're so rarely given the gravity they deserve, that she's not treated like a danger to herself and others, that seems off to me. Forgive her, yes, but supervise her as well, please. 

But she's helped save Equestria many times, and she's a good friend to Trixie and Maud, so it's not like she's a dead weight to them. When I say she doesn't add to the show, I primarily mean that her inclusion in the show does nothing to enrich it. Plus, she feels disconnected from the mane six, so the ways she improves their lives feel largely impersonal. 

[KH7672 1,604]

40 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

For a while, it annoyed me that Starlight could keep messing up without affecting anyone's perception of her, and season 7 made this worse by generally giving her positive reinforcement for her mistakes.

It's interesting how this perception of her came about in Season 6. I'm being honest here, this is not being biased against her, she was not reprimanded for her actions ONCE; "A Royal Problem."

NSP-Immediately called out by Applejack for her use of magic. As for changing perceptions, they know the pony they are dealing with and the issues she has leading to...

ELTSD-Called out by Twilight, apologizes to the other five and does not even ask for help, they offer it themselves. They see she owns her mistakes and is not trying to excuse herself as a good idea because she was thinking too self centeredly on her getting done their lessons as best, just not going about it right

ABU-This is when she messes up because she is now thinking of others feelings and not just her own. Getting away with it because, well what's there to confess? The table is back, the three ponies understood the accident, and she even fixed her property damage, so did she really get away with anything that she didn't make up for?

ARP-Now we have the first instance of getting away with her sporadic decision making. I mean she was called out at first but I get what you mean by the end with Celestia calling it the right call.

TCAC-Thorax immediately calls her out, makes her come along, and was ready to call her out again, and rightfully so as this was the first decision that could have had dangerous consequences.  She does try to weasel out of it but this is the first time she tries so I am forgiving this once, still I won't blame you if you aren't. However remember Thorax witnessed her decision making and leadership firrst hand so I doubt one mistake that she tries to fix will sour his perception that much. Triple Threat and that episode showed how good of friends they are compared to the rest of the Mane 6 and the princesses.

And just since she did use magic UB- Use magic AFTER Twilight tells her to use it to bond with Sunburst, and AFTER Sunburst shows interest in her spell (just unaware of how much it did) she uses magic on him and immediately after she sees his dissatisfaction, she does not try to justify the spell, she gives up and sees her mistake in herself not even in Sunburst.

Messing up and acting impulsively for different reasons everytime are different things. In all those episodes, she faltered everytime (you know like all these characters do) but she only messed up three times and is only positively reinforced once.

[Thrond 3,263]

3 hours ago, KH7672 said:

ABU-This is when she messes up because she is now thinking of others feelings and not just her own. Getting away with it because, well what's there to confess? The table is back, the three ponies understood the accident, and she even fixed her property damage, so did she really get away with anything that she didn't make up for?

What Starlight did still could have been a danger to herself and others, and saying she just "learned a friendship lesson" feels like deliberate misrepresentation. Twilight should probably know that Starlight still can't handle being left alone without doing bizarre, irresponsible things with magic. I don't really care that she "made up for it," as this is the kind of thing we saw her doing at least half of the time up to this point, so she strikes me as potentially dangerous.

The others you're of course correct about, but my issue is more that those around her don't act any more wary about her presence. I simply feel the mane six especially are too comfortable around her; Twilight used magic unethically approximately once, whereas Starlight seems to do it every other time she appears.

And, as with everything regarding Starlight, I think this is only so hard to tolerate because her personality is so slight and inconsistent. As early as "No Second Prances," I was complaining that Starlight is a hollow shell of a pony, and I genuinely feel nothing has changed in that regard. I cared enough about Twilight to forgive her for "Lesson Zero," but I only care about Starlight when she's again abusing her magic or doing something inappropriate. Which would be fine if I weren't meant to sympathize with her all the time. 

[Jeric 46,867]

4 hours ago, KH7672 said:

she was not reprimanded for her actions ONCE; "A Royal Problem."

Yes she was. Just not the way you wanted it to happen. 

[KH7672 1,604]

50 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Yes she was. Just not the way you wanted it to happen. 

Woah hey, easy on the quick draw on that statement I was just analysing the episode as unbiased as possible keeping my feelings for the character out of it. Of course I know she reprimanded herself through psychological trauma in her dreams, a great showing of how she has remorse for her actions, but I was tackling more the physical reprimanding or lack there of by the princesses. I truly feel Celestia made the right call with some positive reassurance so to build up her self-worth again after experiencing what Starlight was feeling. That does not change in the long run that this could have spiraled into a poor mindset for her character to go with her gut. Luckfully, that mindset is properly reprimanded in "To Change A Changeling" so there is nice control there.

All I was stating was who she messed with and the final outcome for said characters reacting toward her. Just trying to keep it simple about the actions and not the feelings.

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

15 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Woah hey, easy on the quick draw on that statement I was just analysing the episode as unbiased as possible keeping my feelings for the character out of it. Of course I know she reprimanded herself through psychological trauma in her dreams, a great showing of how she has remorse for her actions, but I was tackling more the physical reprimanding or lack there of by the princesses. I truly feel Celestia made the right call with some positive reassurance so to build up her self-worth again after experiencing what Starlight was feeling. That does not change in the long run that this could have spiraled into a poor mindset for her character to go with her gut. Luckfully, that mindset is properly reprimanded in "To Change A Changeling" so there is nice control there.

All I was stating was who she messed with and the final outcome for said characters reacting toward her. Just trying to keep it simple about the actions and not the feelings.

 

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

Yes she was. Just not the way you wanted it to happen. 

Jeric’s right, she was immediately ‘reprimanded’ by Twilight, unless anyone thinks giving your mentor that you look up to and respect a full on panic attack is an endorsement. Starlight was nervous after she switched the Princesses cutie marks, but it wasn’t until after she saw Twilights reaction that she started to doubt herself, and that’s self doubt is what caused her nightmare.

A Royal Problem is my favorite episode because of how perfectly it uses its characters.

Edited November 10, 2017 by ShootingStar159