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Fame and Misfortune: Bad feels


Steel Accord

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READ FIRST!: If you have complaints about the episode or those who wrote it, take it somewhere else!

Wow, been a looooong while since I was in this part of the forum. Now let me make it clear, this is NOT a review or reaction to the episode or quality of it. Just sharing something on my mind and wanting a second thought.

I have to say, I feel a little . . . hurt almost. Yes, one can point out "you know who you are." At the same time though, I've always been one to cry foul when people accosted the writers or one of the characters at the expense of the others. I've been to two cons and never talked to anypony on the writing staff there, and all my comments here on the forum regarding the show itself have been nothing but glowing praise with maybe the occasional joke or jab. The last even remotely negative thing I can say I said about the show was a critique of "28 Pranks Later" and even that was lambasting in-universe character logic which I didn't even have a huge problem with. All in all, I've never expressed significant disfavor with the show, if you ask my friends here they'll tell you I'm almost defiant in my continued enjoyment and praise of it.

So to have proxy representations of me be exactly the kind of negative-nancy I disagree with and not the "I have learned lessons, enjoy ALL of the characters, and love this show dearly" type of fan. It hit home kind of hard. I'm not going to loose sleep over it or anything, but the reaction has left a bad feeling sitting deep in my gut. Like some mild indigestion. It's not torture, but you feel a little off your game and wish it would just pass.

What do you guys think? Is there a more positive spin to this that I'm not considering?

Edited by Steel Accord
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From what I see, there is no positive spin for it. The episode bathes itself in negativity, negativity that it didn't need to bring up. It left me with a feeling of irritation and grumpyness, when most episodes make me feel happy upon watching them.

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Personally, I have and still do take the episode as the writers simply saying, "hey, adult fans, this show isn't perfect and you should stop taking so seriously, try to enjoy it for what it is, an entertaining cartoon." I loved it and still do, and no one will convince me otherwise.

Personally, I think you might be looking a bit too deep into it in my opinion.

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@Steel Accord

Here's what I wrote on the discussion page for it:

Okay, I especially love how meta this gets! 

Let me sum up how each of the Mane 5 were treated:

Rarity was being hated for (in the eyes of haters,) never learning anything.

Pinkie fans think everything she does is worth laughing about when there's more to her than just smiles and laughter

Rainbow Dash can't even do her job even when she tries to get her fans to appreciate Twilight's lessons for one

Fluttershy is criticized for apparently learning the same lesson over and over

Applejack is so popular, that every Brony pony wanted to be part of the Apple Family

Apparently, Twilight was loved before she had wings!

I especially love the song too! Even if it didn't changed the Critical Bronies townponies' minds

I'm going to have to re-watch the episode to make sure my post, but I'll need to wait for a better video.

EDIT: Forgot Applejack! And Twilight!

Seriously, If I was in that episode as Unicorn Will Guide, at the boiling point where the Mane 6 were hiding in the castle, I would tell them something that counters the harshness of what I Quoted up there earlier.

I love all you girls, even you Rarity.

I know that even you have your sad moments, Pinkie.

I know that it's not all about you Rainbow Dash, and I especially loved the one where Twilight helped you study, because it was also about her as much as it was about you.

Fluttershy, I don't mind that you're "learning the same lesson over and over". There was always some small step that kept each episode, or lesson, from being exactly the same!

Applejack, I love your family, but I wouldn't go that far to be a part of it! Heck, someday, I want to be a part of the Disneyland cast members, but even I have interests outside Disney!

And Twilight, to satarize a line from a certain popular, yet overexposed song from a Disney Snow Queen: I don't care what the Hate-filled Fandom say. Let the storm rage on! The wings never bother me anyway!

Don't forget the two little fillies that Starlight brought in who saw the friendships lessons for what they were.

TL:DR: Despite all the negativity, I think the positive reactions like what I and the fillies had are worth it! 

The Mane 6 even came to the conclusion to not let all the negativity get in the way of the fact that there are at least some people taking positive things from the Journal.

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I think this ep is fun. The dark corner of the fandom should not be covered up, i like the show when everything is not always good and nice, there are raining before the rainbow.

If you think this ep is made just to insult you, i think you are missing the point.

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@Kyoshi

16 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

From what I see, there is no positive spin for it. The episode bathes itself in negativity, negativity that it didn't need to bring up. It left me with a feeling of irritation and grumpyness, when most episodes make me feel happy upon watching them.

Don't forget that there were those two fillies who saw the positive in the Journal. They're the little girls and Bronys who know the show has its positive side as well as its negative side. So it's not ALL bad.

I just hope @Steel Accord and @Kyoshi will see the point of positivity I'm making here soon. 'Cause it seems they'd just logged out. :P

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20 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

I think this ep is fun. The dark corner of the fandom should not be covered up, i like the show when everything is not always good and nice, there are raining before the rainbow.

If you think this ep is made just to insult you, i think you are missing the point.

I didn’t think that at all. As I said in the beginning, the post was just a gut reaction, not a critique of the episode.

25 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

@Steel Accord

Here's what I wrote on the discussion page for it:

Okay, I especially love how meta this gets! 

Let me sum up how each of the Mane 5 were treated:

Rarity was being hated for (in the eyes of haters,) never learning anything.

Pinkie fans think everything she does is worth laughing about when there's more to her than just smiles and laughter

Rainbow Dash can't even do her job even when she tries to get her fans to appreciate Twilight's lessons for one

Fluttershy is criticized for apparently learning the same lesson over and over

Applejack is so popular, that every Brony pony wanted to be part of the Apple Family

Apparently, Twilight was loved before she had wings!

I especially love the song too! Even if it didn't changed the Critical Bronies townponies' minds

I'm going to have to re-watch the episode to make sure my post, but I'll need to wait for a better video.

EDIT: Forgot Applejack! And Twilight!

Seriously, If I was in that episode as Unicorn Will Guide, at the boiling point where the Mane 6 were hiding in the castle, I would tell them something that counters the harshness of what I Quoted up there earlier.

I love all you girls, even you Rarity.

I know that even you have your sad moments, Pinkie.

I know that it's not all about you Rainbow Dash, and I especially loved the one where Twilight helped you study, because it was also about her as much as it was about you.

Fluttershy, I don't mind that you're "learning the same lesson over and over". There was always some small step that kept each episode, or lesson, from being exactly the same!

Applejack, I love your family, but I wouldn't go that far to be a part of it! Heck, someday, I want to be a part of the Disneyland cast members, but even I have interests outside Disney!

And Twilight, to satarize a line from a certain popular, yet overexposed song from a Disney Snow Queen: I don't care what the Hate-filled Fandom say. Let the storm rage on! The wings never bother me anyway!

Don't forget the two little fillies that Starlight brought in who saw the friendships lessons for what they were.

TL:DR: Despite all the negativity, I think the positive reactions like what I and the fillies had are worth it! 

The Mane 6 even came to the conclusion to not let all the negativity get in the way of the fact that there are at least some people taking positive things from the Journal.

This. 

That actually makes me feel a whole let better. Thanks, buddy.

17 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

@Kyoshi

Don't forget that there were those two fillies who saw the positive in the Journal. They're the little girls and Bronys who know the show has its positive side as well as its negative side. So it's not ALL bad.

I just hope @Steel Accord and @Kyoshi will see the point of positivity I'm making here soon. 'Cause it seems they'd just logged out. :P

Hey it’s past midnight where I am. I need my sleep! XD

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1 minute ago, Steel Accord said:

This. 

That actually makes me feel a whole let better. Thanks, buddy.

Now that's the way for me to end my day: Making someone feel a whole lot better! That means so much coming from you! Heck even if tomorrow turns out bad for me, I'm going to be happy all weekend because I'd helped improve someone! :D^_^:pinkie::squee::icwudt::wub:

Plus the song is awesome! Even if in-universe, it fell on deaf ears with the townponies.

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I still don't get it why people are so angry or disappointed in this episode. Where Slice of Life was an episode to congrats the fandom, was this an episode to protect the writers. And then you of course would say: "But I didn't accuse any of them", but let's be fair. All over the fandom there is negativity to the writers. This was not well made and that was bad. This is a message in a fun manner that not everything is perfect and that we should not try to get it perfect, because you will chase a neverending dream.

My advice: Try to see the fun part of this episode and don't be offended by anything against you. :orly:

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1 hour ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

@Kyoshi

Don't forget that there were those two fillies who saw the positive in the Journal. They're the little girls and Bronys who know the show has its positive side as well as its negative side. So it's not ALL bad.

I just hope @Steel Accord and @Kyoshi will see the point of positivity I'm making here soon. 'Cause it seems they'd just logged out. :P

The little girls, yeah. I saw nothing representing those in the fandom who appreciates the show in there. That makes me hate the episode twice at much.

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4 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

The little girls, yeah. I saw nothing representing those in the fandom who appreciates the show in there. That makes me hate the episode twice at much.

Sounds like You're missing the point I'm making. There ARE Bronys who, like the girls, see the positive in the show. Just look at me!

Edited by WiiGuy2014
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2 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

You're missing the point. There ARE Bronys who, like the girls, see the positive in the show. Just look at me!

Exactly. And actually, it was not a large group of ponies in the first place who caused trouble if you look at the whole of Equestria. The writers just hear less of the positive people and that's why everybody looks negative.

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We are in a weird time in entertainment. Media of yesteryear did not have to receive the unfiltered reactions of their consumers like they do nowadays. Now every writer and artist who works on a piece of entertainment can expect feedback from their fans almost immediately, be it well thought out or absolutely insane. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are people who are part of your favorite fandoms that straight up harass show creators for the stupidest reasons. There are also fans who voice their opinions and desires for a piece of media that the writers just do not care about. I would like consistent and well thought out lore in this show for example, but the writers just do not care about those kind of details. 

I think this is why we are seeing shows making episodes revolving around the fans like this now. These jabs at the critics and the fan theorists are from writers who get accosted on an hourly basis on social media, especially if they have a relatively large and active fanbase. You see it as shooting one message or making one blog post, but to them it's one of hundreds or even thousands that flood into their mentions. 

I'd say they are a bit warranted to poke some fun at our fandom personally. This coming from an avid fan theorist. 

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2 hours ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

Don't forget that there were those two fillies who saw the positive in the Journal. They're the little girls and Bronys who know the show has its positive side as well as its negative side. So it's not ALL bad.

That little detail makes it worse. The episode went out of its way to turn characters that the brony fandom loved for so many years into assholes. And then they swerve a curve by using two little girls as token characters to tell little girls (the show's primary demographic) that they matter. When you're portraying both kids and adults the entire episode as abusive, quarter-dimensional stereotypes of fans, you're not telling them they matter. You're only treating them like shit.

16 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

There ARE Bronys who, like the girls, see the positive in the show. Just look at me!

Many of us here do. The episode, though, is broken.

9 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

I'd say they are a bit warranted to poke some fun at our fandom personally. This coming from an avid fan theorist. 

The show can poke fun at the fandom without being lazy. Prior to F&M, Stranger Than Fan Fiction did that quite well. The big difference between Fame and STFF is Quibble is written as a lovable jerk and not treated as a non-fan of the Daring Do series. One episode later in S7, Zeppelin, is much smarter and cleverer than F&M.

Edited by Dark Qiviut
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6 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

I'd say they are a bit warranted to poke some fun at our fandom personally. This coming from an avid fan theorist. 

I completely agree. I think some people just like being negative honestly.

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7 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

We are in a weird time in entertainment. Media of yesteryear did not have to receive the unfiltered reactions of their consumers like they do nowadays. Now every writer and artist who works on a piece of entertainment can expect feedback from their fans almost immediately, be it well thought out or absolutely insane. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are people who are part of your favorite fandoms that straight up harass show creators for the stupidest reasons. There are also fans who voice their opinions and desires for a piece of media that the writers just do not care about. I would like consistent and well thought out lore in this show for example, but the writers just do not care about those kind of details. 

I think this is why we are seeing shows making episodes revolving around the fans like this now. These jabs at the critics and the fan theorists are from writers who get accosted on an hourly basis on social media, especially if they have a relatively large and active fanbase. You see it as shooting one message or making one blog post, but to them it's one of hundreds or even thousands that flood into their mentions. 

I'd say they are a bit warranted to poke some fun at our fandom personally. This coming from an avid fan theorist. 

Just wanted to acknowledge that this was well written and a more nuanced angle than I am used to seeing regarding this episode. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

That little detail makes it worse. The episode went out of its way to turn characters that the brony fandom loved for so many years into assholes. And then they swerve a curve by using two little girls as token characters to tell little girls (the show's primary demographic) that they matter. When you're portraying both kids and adults the entire episode as abusive, quarter-dimensional stereotypes of fans, you're not telling them they matter. You're only treating them like shit.

I've not heard any of the kids I know look at it this way. More importantly, these are not just fan stereotypes, but likely experiences shared among staff. You should delineate here. I have seen behavior from fans that is far worse than what the episode showed. I've seen behavior that is on par with the episode. Once you have confirmable experiences, you start to earn a pass from the complaints that x or y is only a stereotype. Art imitating life. 

And yes I know that my nieces are not a universal barometer of how all kids feel .... but .... my anecdotal evidence is better than your anecdotal evidence. ;)

 

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32 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

The little girls, yeah. I saw nothing representing those in the fandom who appreciates the show in there. That makes me hate the episode twice at much.

I saw my neices in them. Everytime I have ever said, "What do you think about <insert generally unpopular fandom thing in an episode>?" ... the oldest thinks we've list our marbles when I tell them something isn't considered good. 

2 minutes ago, Celli said:

At the end of the day, we all have differing opinions on the episode, and no one view is objectively right or wrong.

Agreed. 

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56 minutes ago, Jeric said:

I have seen behavior from fans that is far worse than what the episode showed

Not just the show, i have seen worse behaviors of fans in general that make Fame & Misfortune is just a Rainbow version of them. 

51 minutes ago, Celli said:

At the end of the day, we all have differing opinions on the episode, and no one view is objectively right or wrong.

Hahaha, of course they are, this is a forum, not a court. If an opinion was 100% right or 100% wrong, the court would not be needed at all.

1 hour ago, Celli said:

I completely agree. I think some people just like being negative honestly.

*Being nervous* No, they dont... I think its to not healthy to contain your negative feeling... Its ok to express your feeling, right right RIGHT........... 

 

 

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I have been watching the show for quite a while and been in the fandom for a while as well.

I have witnessed the Twilicorn, Equestria Girls, and Filli Vanilli fiascoes, and know about Derpygate.

So with this content, it is quite clear to me that the fandom has been pretty awful to the show staff over the years on multiple occasions, including ones that I haven't even listed here.

I would say that the fandom has been much worse than how the ponies in Fame and Misfortune were portrayed.

And I honestly view this episode as being restrained all things considered.

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Guys, just to reiterate, I don’t think this episode is bad. As a matter of fact, I couldn’t stop laughing. Joke after joke just hit it out of the park. What wasn’t a knee slapper at least got a good guffaw out of me. I’ll do a proper positive review of the episode later in the thread about it and, just keeping with my OP, hit that maximum like button and defend its merits.

My minor and easily assuaged distress, as a sincerely devoted, loving, and positive brony is (broken record) NOT a negative comment on the episode or writers. Just for instance, I haven’t gotten this chocked up for a song since . . . well, since “In My Head like a Catchy Song”, but before that “We’ll Make our Mark.” Which “Flawless” seems to me to be the Mane Six equivalent.

So by all means feel as you feel. Just don’t misconstrue my original post as negativity toward the episode, show, or writers.

Edited by Steel Accord
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Lot of good discussion here. Not even sure I need to chime in, but heck I will anyways 

We can argue that the episode would have stronger appeal to older fans who appreciate the show by broadening the representation of good fans, but I think the episode really needs the bleak contrast to make us have this discussion in the first place. 

We shouldn't be compelled to lump ourselves in with the worst elements of fandom. Honestly, we have no trouble banning idiots from communities when they are being abusive to the members, but we act all uncomfortable about raising any discussion about lesser degrees of toxicity and risking shaking the boat of friendliness. If we believe in growth and need for self-reflection we should be able to expressly condemn those activities of our fellows without remorse.

Getting back to the episode specifically, I think there's room to think the episode falters by conflating criticism of the product with direct abuse of its creator. A line that sticks out to me is where Twilight says they're or just characters in a story, and it's like: Well yeah, you are. Pointing that out by using real criticism levied specifically at the product and NOT the creator kind of makes things weirdly meta and muddled the point. (However, the fact that the writers can mirror that criticism so well tells me that they've had a lot of what should just be inter-fandom gossip directed at them, and I personally forgive any overlap)

But all the same, we should understand the point was a: creators being harassed directly is bad, b: creators should remember who they are trying to reach with their work. I don't think it does is any favors to use flaws in the episode as an escape from addressing these more important and yes uncomfortable subjects

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