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Why do people hate good guys?


heavens-champion

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1 minute ago, Steve Piranha said:

Apart from the argument that they always win, they tend to overuse a select few sets of archetypes: naive, overidealist, over positive, dumb, etc, etc, etc. Great to appeal to children, but as an adult you see the point of well developed villains at times

There's probably a good reason why those archetypes still exist: Because they work.

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1 minute ago, heavens-champion said:

There's probably a good reason why those archetypes still exist: Because they work.

They do, but they hardly get a needed rework. Makes them feel bland compared to other characters, in fact, they usually are. 

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You also have the perpetual story elements in some mediums. You can't tell me that the Joker will ever completely lose. It's actually a recurring debate within Batman ... allowing him to live means more innocents will die. He will always survive and if locked away, will always get out. Even if Batman wins, the Joker never loses. Even if the Joker loses, Batman never wins. 

How's that for a good guys win, bad guys lose paradox? 

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Good guys aren’t always “good.” Antiheroes exist: Punisher, Wolverine, Red Hood, Winter Soldier, etc. They’ve all struggled, a lot have dark pasts, some have done foul deeds before for selfish reasons, and they’re not all goody-two-shoes. A lot of their flaws make them relatable, human. They’ve lost before and have had to make huge sacrifices or suffer at the hands of bad guys.

I don’t think people have a huge problem with good guys themselves. Dumb, Gary-Stu type characters like Goku have quite the following. (Yes, I just insulted Dragonball. Come at me.) And Superman, the worst offender in this category, has a big following as well. What people don’t like is lack of depth and personality. The characters in the previous paragraph shine in this regard. However, people also don’t like “edgy” characters, which can be associated with all of the previous. Some believe these characters to be too dark and gritty and not someone to look up to, but that’s because you can’t look up to them, you’re eye-to-eye with them. They’re incredibly human, disastrously so, they’ve made mistakes that cost lives, have made extremely questionable decisions, and live with regrets. That’s where the “bland, perfect” icons come in. People want something that represents what to strive for, a bright, shining beacon of hope. The recent success of Wonder Woman proves this.

Also, not all villains are well-developed. Lex Luthor, for example.

Basically, comes down to personal preference and preconceived notions. You had a bad day? Go with the first paragraph. You good and want to see justice handed to some baddies? Go with second. So pick your poison. Or antidote, if you’re into that.

Edited by TigerGeekGuy
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I don't dislike good guys, I just do think that all too often it's a stereotypical story, as many others here seem to feel as well.

You can't have a good story without genuine conflict, and if you know the "good" side is already going to win, there isn't much to bother with.

Just my opinion though. ^.^

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I prefer good guys who is more anti-hero or someone like captain america. Not the ones who is so self-righteous to the point they are too perfect to be broken. 

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  • 1 year later...

I always like goodguys. I hardly think it's a cliche that the goodguys always win because it seems more and more that the badguys end up the glorified ones. There's nothing glorious or admirable in being bad. It's a character flaw that shows a lack of command over one's emotional passions. It may be easy to identify with the badguys because we all have our flaws and it feels good to know we're not the only ones struggling with temptations and negative instincts. Being good may not seem sexy, because it takes more effort and gets less admiration for it. But it's for that very reason, among many others, that I'll always prefer the goodguys.  

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I'd say that everyone likes a good villain, because it's not about if they are good or evil it's what they do I guess. Like if the good guy does have a cardboard personality then it doesn't really matter if they are holier then thou. They are just boring

Let's look at this from this angle, sometimes it's really gets tiring to always root for the 'good' guy then you might want to switch sides.

Edited by R.D.Dash
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There is no true "hero" or "villain" to ANYTHING. People have and always will have different perspectives to life. What we do with our own is completely up to us and will change throughout it. I could write an entire book about the illusions of Good vs. Evil. 

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I think good guy cliches are more seen in either kid's media or in very old things (as in 20s to 50s). And even then, practically anything competent writer knows that "good, always positive = uninteresting."

But it isn't a bad thing for the hero to be nice. It's more about how you execute them. And with all these new franchises and media these days, it also means new stories with original twists and characters that don't have black/white morality. Good guy cliches keep dying down every year. 

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"The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde."

Now that is a good portrayal of the whole subject of good and evil in characters. Ultimately though, the portrayal of an interesting character has nothing to do with whether they are good or evil/hero or villain. It's about how the characters are created and written. You can easily get bland poorly written villains just as much as you can get bland and poorly written heroes. Just because a protagonist is nice and tries to do the right thing doesn't make them automatically boring. You can easily get "good guy" characters who have deep personalities.

Now the "good guy" characters that get hated. Are the ones that literally have no flaws. The ones that are your "Mary Sues and Gary Stus". But the hatred towards those characters have nothing to do with them being a "good guy". The problem with those characters is purely that they are badly designed and written. Regardless of whether or not a character is the hero or villain, any story writer with enough experience will tell you that a good character has virtues aswell as flaws and limitations. Things that make them relatable in some way to the reader/listener/watcher. It's easy for villains to become relatable because in a sense they are riddled with flaws. Flaws that make them do the things that they do. We all have our flaws and we tend to empathise with others who share the same flaws as us. Makes us feel a little less lonely in regards to them. Relatable.

A hero or "good guy" character that is well written will also have flaws of their own. It's usually what defines their trial throughout the story in addition to his relationship with the antagonist/villain. It's not about how it ends or who wins. It's about how the characters get to the ending. Where do they start? What problems are they faced with? How do they evolve? Where do they go? How do they overcome their ordeals? Why are they doing the things that they do? How are the hero and villain alike? Countless questions that flesh the characters out be they "good guy" or "bad guy".

But where we can relate to flaws in a character, we can also relate to their virtues. A shared ideal or a REALISTIC display of what we would like to see in ourselves can inspire us to empathise in the same way with "good guy" characters. Sometimes the villain can display those qualities also, even without realising it themselves. In some cases, being their redemption (Sunset Shimmer/Starlight Glimmer after their defeat). A similar thing with a hero. They could possess a flaw that makes them fall and lose their way (Princess Luna to Nightmare Moon).

Back to the original topic. I don't believe people hate "good guys". They just hate badly made characters.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It all depends on personal opinions and perspectives. I sometimes want the bad guys to win because I just want a change for once or that it would make the scenario more interesting. Sometimes, I want the good guys to win just because I was attracted to their behavior or they're just cool looking.

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I do hate to be patronizing, but many of the people who tend to dislike very heroic characters or protagonists in general are usually teenagers or novice writers. Thus, they don't typically understand what makes fiction timelessly appealing. Any story with a protagonist is almost always going to end with their triumph, yes, but whether or not they succeed isn't what makes their stories compelling; it's the hurdles they overcome which does.

The Hero's Journey has stood the test of time for this very reason. Typically, the entire point of a protagonist is to be the viewer or reader's central point of empathy. This is why flaws and humanity is one of the most fundamental aspects of character creation; without some form of pathos, there is noting to struggle against, thus nothing to connect the reader to the protagonist(s) in question.

Either way, it's worth mentioning that this is all subjective at the end of the day; what interests one individual in fiction won't interest another. There aren't any concrete rules in fiction, after all. I only seek to explain why standard protagonists are so prominent in fiction.

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Most people assume they are a good guy. Villans give an outlet to the dark ideas we have without engaging them. So people gravitate towards what they cant ever be. 

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It's "different", a change of pace if you will. In real life, we're all forced to be good people and thus the excitement of living through a character who is evil is appealing. It's a life that most of us will never experience. Not to mention, it's boring for a hero to defeat a villain that no one has any emotion toward. It's more rewarding for the hero to beat a villain that people have attachment toward.

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  • 1 month later...

my favorite "good guy" is captain jean-luc picard. He's a great character, even if Q is a fantastic adversary. A villain is really only as good as their protagonist-  think about the movie Unbreakable where this concept works perfectly, because both characters function as equally important elements of the story. 

When people hate protagonists it's because they're poorly written, and lack proper motivation. A great protagonist is someone like izuku midoriya from my hero academia. A bad protagonist is something like Ichigo Kurosaki from Bleach. We have to empathize with the protagonist and want to see them succeed... if we don't, naturally we gravitate toward the strongest (written) character, which is often the villain. Consider also that in fiction as in life people who possess confidence, charm, eloquence, and competence are naturally appealing. If your protagonist is constantly weak, unsure of themselves, or just plain boring, then we lose interest in them. Villains are less limited in what their motivations and such are, which gives writers more to work with as well. A bad writer can still write a decent villain, but it takes a good writer to make a good protagonist. A bad writer can never create a compelling hero. 

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