Starlight, the Villager

[KH7672 1,604]

There's been discussion about Starlight the villain or Starlight, Twilight's student.  However I want to go back to very beginning, "The Cutie Map," and see things through the eyes of those she effected. Mainly the villagers and the simple fact that she was one of them at one point.

In truth that is a huge difference between her time as a villain and almost every other villain. She did not come in and disrupt peace with her villainy, she created a peaceful place that others chose to adopt. Albeit, not thinking through the consequences of lacking a unique cutie mark.

Looking back at some villains and antagonists. Discord comes in and transforms the pony's peaceful world into a world of chaos. Sunset comes in and bullies the students ruining their peaceful high-school existence. Even Trixie technically ruined Ponyville's peace with a boastful performance they didn't ask for. Discord was never one of the ponies, Sunset was never one of the students, and Trixie was not close enough to feel like a member of Ponyville. However, Starlight was always "one of the villagers."

Throughout the episode all the character's lines show how much they really felt that way. She was their "founder" not their leader. It was "our village" not hers. She was not watching over them, they watched over each other because they truly felt like a community.

Even when Starlight's deception is revealed Sugar Belle says "We're all equal or none are" and then there's emphasis on how much blame they have on the situation as well "We gave up everything for you, because we thought you were our friend" and  "We all came to this village because we were searching for something missing from our lives. We thought Starlight had given it to us..." Starlight offered that escape and they were blind enough to take it. And why not Fluttershy said it best what the village looks like to an outsider "But that's because everypony's so nice and their village is so pretty, and, and..." This isn't solely Starlight's deception because the villagers really do feel that way about the village, they just deceived themselves by believing it to be true through the philosophy they were told.  They are as much to blame for their current situation as Starlight and they know it.

Double Diamond's final line says it all "This is a chance for all of us to get to know each other again for the very first time!" They stay because they do care about each other and if anyone is willing to join the village again all they ask is to cut the deception, cut the same philosophy, and treat each villager like the individual they are, now that they have the chance.

So in all seriousness why should Starlight be treated any different. She was and still is a villager, she does not want to cause any harm to their cutie mark identities. I mean they literally changed nothing about the village except now they all have cutie marks and if Starlight is willing to accept this new lifestyle without deceiving them through false acceptance, why shouldn't they accept her?  What more does she have to prove? In their mind her only real crime was deception every other crime-to an outsider-they agreed to or look past because in the end it brought them together to the life they have now.

[The Starchild 14]

Well, I'm unfamiliar with the "discussion about Starlight the villain or Starlight, Twilight's student," but she has returned to the village since the incident and they did indeed all forgive her.  They were glad to see her come back and honestly, I think they'd welcome her with open hooves if she wanted to move back. She wasn't treated any differently and since she did repent, she shouldn't be.

[StrawCherry 1,673]

Wow. Preach, man. Preach.

[CypherHoof 26,482]

I do feel she owes them a debt, and should at least attempt to make amends, but I can also see that, despite the removal of the cutie marks that they eventually rejected, they built a village together and built a life together, and they still have that. That time wasn't wasted, but she did hold them back from being their true selves. That they bought into her manifesto until her hypocrisy was revealed parallels many cults in our own world, and even if she DID hide her mark instead of removing it, she did live day-to-day as though she didn't have it, because she believed in that twisted ideal too.

[KH7672 1,604]

4 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I do feel she owes them a debt, and should at least attempt to make amends

But then what does she owe them? Like I said her only crime in their eyes was lying to them, and in real life when you lie to a person the only solution is to ask for an apology and give them time to think it over. They definitely had the time, the only thing left was to see if she was genuinely sorry. I think leaving them live their own lives and not try to take over the town is all the proof they needed to accept her sincerity. She lowered herself not just to their level but even below it by passively submitting herself to their judgement. It was up to them to make the call not her.

If she were to come back and show no remorse for her actions and claim that she's willing to put this all behind her if they do I think they would be a lot more hesitant because she doesn't care about them and only herself. That is the way Trixie approached Twilight and Discord approached the Mane 6. Heck even Twilight is guilty of this when reconciling with Moondancer caring less about her feelings and more about HER being the friend she should have been.  Also Sunset even had this approach, she confronted other students with a "look I'm not evil I'm one of you now" approach which is a problem when she never was one of them so she doesn't seem to empathize with what they went through with her.

[Mirage 24,741]

On 11/23/2017 at 9:16 AM, KH7672 said:

In truth that is a huge difference between her time as a villain and almost every other villain. She did not come in and disrupt peace with her villainy, she created a peaceful place that others chose to adopt. Albeit, not thinking through the consequences of lacking a unique cutie mark.

I'm sorry but that is just not true about Starlight's intentions. The Mane 6 were sent there because there was a 'friendship problem'. Please pay careful attention to how the episodes are told - the village had the appearance of peace, they had the appearance of being happy, etc. But it was all appearances, it wasn't genuine. The ponies there were controlled with fierce discipline, and brainwashed into compliance. It was a village ruled by fear and insanity. This is not the pony way.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I think that story illustrates that idea very well. So the ponies may have initially chose Starlight's way but they really didn't know what they were getting into, did they? It's called good salesmanship. Make them feel like it's their idea - bait and switch - leave them no options after. Checkmate.

Moreover, Starlight's character was portrayed as the worst kind of villain...a villain hard to challenge precisely because she brilliantly set up a system that for all appearances seemed completely peaceful and just. But it wasn't - not by any genuine measure, and Pinkie Pie made sure the audience knew about this fact from the very beginning.

On 11/23/2017 at 9:16 AM, KH7672 said:

Throughout the episode all the character's lines show how much they really felt that way. She was their "founder" not their leader. It was "our village" not hers. She was not watching over them, they watched over each other because they truly felt like a community.

But these were all lies. Starlight admits in later shows that she 'oppressed' her village. She feels tremendous guilt over it, and rightly so. Her intention was to rule, but not be perceived as 'the ruler'. Have you never heard of Social Engineering and Propaganda? By being perceived as 'one of them' they would have no credible reason to challenge her would they? A good defense is a good offense. However, they felt absolute fear in opposing Starlight...why would that be if they were 'just a peaceful community'? Well, they were trained to look over the many contradictions they were taught...I really hope you can see this.

Starlight forced insanity upon them...she realizes that now. Can you even imagine what that would feel like for both victim and oppressor? Just because the damages are not apparent (dead bodies, burnt houses, etc) doesn't mean there were no real casualties. What about the inner damage? It's a very big deal man. Ask anyone who grew up in an abusive house and maybe you'll see how serious it is.

(Is there anything wrong at home? Oh no, everything is just fine...)

23 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

But then what does she owe them?

She owes them the truth.

[Castle Bleck 19,291]

And here I was, thinking this was about some kind of crossover with Starlight Glimmer and this guy:

 

[KH7672 1,604]

1 hour ago, Mirage said:

I'm sorry but that is just not true about Starlight's intentions. The Mane 6 were sent there because there was a 'friendship problem'. Please pay careful attention to how the episodes are told - the village had the appearance of peace, they had the appearance of being happy, etc. But it was all appearances, it wasn't genuine. The ponies there were controlled with fierce discipline, and brainwashed into compliance. It was a village ruled by fear and insanity. This is not the pony way.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I think that story illustrates that idea very well. So the ponies may have initially chose Starlight's way but they really didn't know what they were getting into, did they? It's called good salesmanship. Make them feel like it's their idea - bait and switch - leave them no options after. Checkmate.

I'm not talking about her intentions when the Mane 6 arrived, I'm talking about her intentions to get to this point.  Are you saying Starlight genuinely did not want to be friends with others and merely thought that friendship could not be achieved with different cutie marks, that it was all a ruse just to fill boost her own friendless ego?  That she didn't believe in her own philosophy and just preached what she knew others wanted to hear. No, she preached what she wanted to believe and others were brought in. That is what I'm alluding to as a founder and disrupting the peace. Starlight did not come up with a philosophy, found a village full of ponies and forced her beliefs on them. She created the village and stubbled across ponies who were open enough to this lifestyle choice she was proposing. And if you want to claim she took ponies away from their happy lives with this setup, then why didn't they go back. I'm serious, if this little village really was nothing but her oppression camp they were coaxed into unfairly, then why didn't they leave. Maybe because Starlight wasn't lying when she said they were lost, they didn't really fit into a community where they came from, but then they stumble across a community bred to be welcoming and inviting even if it was for a messed up thinking it still felt like a community and one they had no desire to leave when they realized the error of their philosophy.

This is a problem I have with the Mane 6's execution in The Cutie Map. We see Starlight has to force friendship on them through the brainwashing, but only because they're resisting, and why are they resisting, because they see the problem with the town's philosophy, and why could they see the problem so easily, because they were sent there with the mindset they're looking for a problem. The episode does not give the viewer the experience of a pony stubbling across this town unknown to Equestria or that they'd even find it out here. Instead the episode has our characters know before hand something is wrong and are constantly wary of it. If you really stumbled across this town out in the middle of nowhere, then you're out in the middle of nowhere for a reason and Starlight's village is not your destination but a chance encounter that becomes your escape from the isolation.  With this mindset it is not hard to see how inviting such a village can be even with its bizarre philosophy.

1 hour ago, Mirage said:

But these were all lies. Starlight admits in later shows that she 'oppressed' her village. She feels tremendous guilt over it, and rightly so. Her intention was to rule, but not be perceived as 'the ruler'. Have you never heard of Social Engineering and Propaganda? By being perceived as 'one of them' they would have no credible reason to challenge her would they? A good defense is a good offense. However, they felt absolute fear in opposing Starlight...why would that be if they were 'just a peaceful community'? Well, they were trained to look over the many contradictions they were taught...I really hope you can see this.

Starlight forced insanity upon them...she realizes that now. Can you even imagine what that would feel like for both victim and oppressor? Just because the damages are not apparent (dead bodies, burnt houses, etc) doesn't mean there were no real casualties. What about the inner damage? It's a very big deal man. Ask anyone who grew up in an abusive house and maybe you'll see how serious it is.

I'm sorry but it seems we've had different perceptions of Starlight as a villain. Yes she oppressed them.....of their special talents, not as basic ponies who she sees lower than her. Why do I believe that because through the entire run of the episode she truly sees the village as "Our Town" it's not just hers it's ours, even when she is not speaking to anyone "a boost to our community....to join us....what we're trying to accomplish" She truly feels like the community is equal as one, she is no better than anypony else and neither are they. Hence the stress on not talking about cutie marks because she's not wrong, it's selfish to desire your mark back when the sentiment is not unanimous.

Starlight I feel is over-exaggerating herself as to differentiate what she feels is her old life. She feels guilty because she fed a false idea of friendship into them which she now realizes was ridiculously stupid. I guess what you saw as a malevolent cult leader bent on ruling over others with her twisted ways determined to force that philosophy as supreme perfection. I saw a lost confused woman who thinks she found the solution to her friendship problems now that she garnered a community willing to follow her philosophy that she's dis-alluded herself into believing is the only way and now she doesn't want to lose this little corner of happiness she's created herself. Because when she does you know she's going to go after that pony who took away her happiness.

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

28 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Starlight did not come up with a philosophy, found a village full of ponies and forced her beliefs on them.

If I recall correctly, she kind of did the last part. I mean, she did seem awfully quick to let Party Favor revive the same kind of brainwashing that the mane six had to suffer through after he admitted to telling them about the place where they stored everybody's cutie marks.   

 

[KH7672 1,604]

5 minutes ago, Yamet said:

If I recall correctly, she kind of did the last part. I mean, she did seem awfully quick to let Party Favor revive the same kind of brainwashing that the mane six had to suffer through after he admitted to telling them about the place where they stored everybody's cutie marks.   

 

I will admit you are correct in her harshness of the situation, but looking back it was less her punishment and more the town's. He says "I'm sorry, everypony" not "I'm sorry, Starlight" He conspired against the town's one major rule, and they feel he should amend for it one can see by looking at their dissatisfied faces as he admits his shame. Like I said the town is still a community looking out for each other just following a belief system that isn't the strongest but with nothing more for them they purposely leave themselves no other option.

[Mirage 24,741]

@KH7672 You are trying to prove something that just isn't there. It's fine to speculate what you think, but I'm afraid the show just doesn't support your claim that Starlight was doing a 'good thing' that was misunderstood. Consider that in order for your speculation to stand, the Mane 6 would have to be bias, and have a disingenuous intent themselves. That's rather outrageous if you would consider how relieved and totally reformed Starlight has become. She has learned to accept the pain and happiness that friendship, rather than compliance, really means. Personal relationships are messy - but they are still more fulfilling than indoctrination.

A pony's cutie mark is central to their being. It's what makes a pony, well, a pony in Equestria. It's their birthright and ultimate goal and it is their good - that is, their cutie mark is how they work on and reach their proper end. This is not under discussion in Equestria - their cutie marks are their essential identity.

Starlight removed cutie marks for the same villainous reason Syndrome tried to make everyone a super hero - 'if everyone is special, no one is'. It's revenge. Starlight didn't want real friends - she felt betrayed by such relationships. So she concocted an artificial philosophy that backfired - drastically. This is the whole point of the episodes - an artificial philosophy that denies ponies their one and only indisputable mark of who they are is total hell.

If you don't understand the nature of a being, you will necessarily misuse or abuse it. Take for instance a dog. If you try to train a dog to behave like a human you will have removed the dog's strongest attributes to be a dog. That is, it will no longer track and hunt prey for its survival, and bond with other dogs. Its keen senses and abilities to alert real danger and react swiftly and appropriately will become dull and unused. It won't be able to mate when it burns to do so. Instead it will lay around and wait to be fed. Tame. Insane. Boring. And not because it has been redeemed but rather oppressed into slavery for its master and his comfort. Sure, the dog is 'safe' - but that is not the nature of a dog is it? In reality, a dog, like its ancestor the wolf, is a fierce and terrible animal. They are dangerous and wild and beautiful. Our opinions don't matter here. That is their rightful nature, as they evolved in nature without our interference.

With that in mind, if that peaceful little village ever had to defend itself from the various ill-intentioned magical creatures that roam Equestria, they'd get annihilated. The end of the episode brilliantly shows the ponies working together with their regained special talents to defeat the powerful Starlight when trying to destroy the Mane 6 cutie marks. The point was very clearly made - ponies without their cutie marks are totally ineffective and sad, while with them, they are joyful and a force to be reckoned with to boot.

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

13 minutes ago, Mirage said:

The end of the episode brilliantly shows the ponies working together with their regained special talents to defeat the powerful Starlight when trying to destroy the Mane 6 cutie marks.

I’m pretty sure if Starlight could destroy cutie marks, she wouldn’t have needed the vault. She was probably just going to hide them away.

[KH7672 1,604]

26 minutes ago, Mirage said:

@KH7672 You are trying to prove something that just isn't there. It's fine to speculate what you think, but I'm afraid the show just doesn't support your claim that Starlight was doing a 'good thing' that was misunderstood. Consider that in order for your speculation to stand, the Mane 6 would have to be bias, and have a disingenuous intent themselves. That's rather outrageous if you would consider how relieved and totally reformed Starlight has become. She has learned to accept the pain and happiness that friendship, rather than compliance, really means. Personal relationships are messy - but they are still more fulfilling than indoctrination.

When did I say what Starlight was doing was a "good thing" for ponies. I said ponies who were lost in life (which the episode says they were unless that was a lie then I ask again why don't they leave?) latched onto her philosophy. They were too smitten to think through if this change would be a good idea, which it isn't as the Mane 6 have shown. And the Mane 6 are biased with themselves as heroes of Equestria. They are called to this village by their reward for being heroes and they are seeking out why they are called as heroes of Equestria who know they are here to help. That's literally the mindset of every map episode. The pony called knows there is a problem and only they can solve it albeit with a little help. When did I imply they're intent was disingenuous, like they were only there to ruin what somepony thinks is real friendship? I've said Starlight was wrong in her reasoning but she was genuine in her beliefs, she was happy with her place in life. If she really wanted more like she truly believed her philosophy would be good enough to dupe others into all over Equestria then why didn't she expand? Why did she just stay there and let the "new friends" find her? Because that's where she was happy. There never was a bigger picture and yes I remember that quote.

"Well, this will certainly provide a boost to our little community. When the rest of Equestria sees that a princess gave up her cutie mark to join us, they'll finally understand what we're trying to accomplish."

Sounds pretty sinister and power hungry, well....I see the boost she talks about as a boost in the public eye. This is like having the President back your product for life. The following this person has is going to provide so much publicity that more and more will want it. And what have you accomplished? That your product is as good as you say it is, that Starlight's idea of friendship works as well as she believes it does, because she believes in it and the happiness it brings her. Why else would she want to destroy Twilight's friendship, because Twilight destroyed hers. Twilight didn't destroy her plan for Equestrian domination, no she just destroyed her little spot of happiness (which is why she is quick to take the chance of happiness Twilight is willing to offer).

[Mirage 24,741]

@KH7672 I can see you're trying really hard to differentiate your perspective from my response, so this is becoming too argumentative. Let me try to roll it back a bit.

I never claimed you said it was a quote 'good thing', the quotes were used to denote that you implied that - and you continue to do so. In the end things turn out good, but that is the spirit of the show isn't it?

Your angle throughout seems to be that you don't think Starlight is as bad as she is portrayed, or maybe as some perceive her. And while you admit that her philosophy was wrong, you have incredible sympathy for it. Frankly, I don't even understand what your point is, other than to attempt to show that Starlight's village was an honest attempt at making things better - for Starlight and for the ponies that were 'lost'. That Starlight couldn't really be a villain because she was only doing what she believed was the right thing to do, however imperfect that was. Well, that just makes Starlight like everyone else! Obviously, there was something quite a bit more sinister about her than just following what she believed was right.

Villains believe in their own madness - that's precisely what makes them creepy. A villain the starts questioning their convictions is a villain about to be defeated.

So while Starlight was nothing like Tirek or Discord in their villainous haydays, she actually did become remarkably cruel in Cutie Re-mark. One might say that 'well, all she was trying to do was break up Twilight's friendships because she broke hers'. But the consequences end up being much worse than she thought. This is just another enforcement of the village idea - what seems under control and tame and workable can spin wildly out of hoof when playing such power (taking away cutie marks, playing with time).

Great good has come from pretty much every villain. So much so that Discord takes credit for Twilight becoming a princess! So the ultimate goodness of Starlight's reformation is not a unique consequence.

That said, I don't think Starlight could be compared to the likes of Tirek or Discord. I don't think anyone makes that comparison. My point was simply that Starlight was certainly villainous, and the mane 6 did need to stop what she was doing.

So what exactly is your point? Can you juxtapose it in a sentence or two?

[KH7672 1,604]

@Mirage Okay now I see where this opposing viewpoints is coming from.

2 hours ago, Mirage said:

My point was simply that Starlight was certainly villainous, and the mane 6 did need to stop what she was doing.

I do not see Starlight as a strong villain, as in the big bad need to stop at all costs because she is going to ruin the world villain. I see now that you do consider her a good villain.

Now I know you said two sentences but I may need to elaborate on my conclusion. I do see Starlight as a regular pony. She's just Apple Bloom, she's just Moondancer, given extra power and a stronger desire to never let anything hurt her again by creating a life where she has no fear in the unknown. I see her as a regular pony gone taken to the extreme because that is exactly how the show treats her and her backstory. No one takes her backstory seriously. All throughout Season 6 either Spike or herself are constantly harping on how much she overreacted. They know she's not some villainous mastermind, she's just a pony who took her internal fears way too far and needs to be shown a better way. That's why no one fears her, she's not some dangerous terrorist, she's just a pony who used her magic for her own self centered desires to hide her insecurities. Tackle those insecurities and you have nothing to worry about with this character. That is the mindset of the Mane 6, that is the mindset of the villagers, that she is not really a danger to them once she has realized her danger in her self destructive path she was taking.

Yes the Mane 6 had to stop Starlight, and they had every right to but they were not just saving these villagers, they were also giving a pony her first step in realizing her folly but taking away what she thought was her ideal life and facing her true insecurities.

I may not see Starlight as a real villainous presense in Equestria but I understand now why you do.

[Mirage 24,741]

9 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

@Mirage Okay now I see where this opposing viewpoints is coming from.

I do not see Starlight as a strong villain, as in the big bad need to stop at all costs because she is going to ruin the world villain. I see now that you do consider her a good villain.

Now I know you said two sentences but I may need to elaborate on my conclusion. I do see Starlight as a regular pony. She's just Apple Bloom, she's just Moondancer, given extra power and a stronger desire to never let anything hurt her again by creating a life where she has no fear in the unknown. I see her as a regular pony gone taken to the extreme because that is exactly how the show treats her and her backstory. No one takes her backstory seriously. All throughout Season 6 either Spike or herself are constantly harping on how much she overreacted. They know she's not some villainous mastermind, she's just a pony who took her internal fears way too far and needs to be shown a better way. That's why no one fears her, she's not some dangerous terrorist, she's just a pony who used her magic for her own self centered desires to hide her insecurities. Tackle those insecurities and you have nothing to worry about with this character. That is the mindset of the Mane 6, that is the mindset of the villagers, that she is not really a danger to them once she has realized her danger in her self destructive path she was taking.

Yes the Mane 6 had to stop Starlight, and they had every right to but they were not just saving these villagers, they were also giving a pony her first step in realizing her folly but taking away what she thought was her ideal life and facing her true insecurities.

I may not see Starlight as a real villainous presense in Equestria but I understand now why you do.

I don't think she's a villain anymore!

Starlight is an immense talent with magic. She is also a very effective leader. She was, and still is a very dangerous character. And don't mean that in a bad way - Twilight is dangerous as well. Being dangerous is not the same as being villainous. And so when Starlight was manipulating and controlling ponies, largely for her own dominance - this was really, really bad. It could have become a total disaster for Ponyville, or even Equestria.

Starlight demands respect. No doubt about it.