Starlight getting off scot-free?

[KH7672 1,604]

Now I'm not talking about "The Cutie Re-mark," that's villain Starlight's actions and can be argued and discussed until the end. No, I'm talking about reformed, main character Starlight the show wants us to see succeed, despite messing things up all too often. So I've seen this brought up in Starlight's episodes regarding her character progression and the idea that there is an illusion of progress. After Starlight messes something up, in the end it all works out, she sees the lesson but she doesn't get much punishment-external not internal-for her actions, resulting in her okay to do it again. While I do see this connotation in "A Royal Problem" and while she did try to weasel out in "To Change a Changeling" that is the last time we've yet seen her make such a potentially dangerous impulse desicion, so I say we can't assume she didn't learn her lesson (especially with her characterization in Shadow Play).

Still, is the show letting her get away with too much; is there something more that should have been done? How should have Twilight and the Re-Mane 5 acted in "Every Little Thing She Does?" How could have the Princesses reacted better in "A Royal Problem?" What more would Thorax have to have done to get her to understand the consequences of such actions?

[Jeric 46,834]

Second verse ... same as the first. 

 

8 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

What more would Thorax have to have done to get her to understand the consequences of such actions?

Tell her she screwed up, it was her fault, and that she has to help him fix it. 

 

 

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

I’m actually impressed Thorax even told her off at all, she’s a very close friend to him. He knows she would never intentionally hurt the hive, but he still didn’t let her slide with her mistake. It was nice to see him still asserting himself when necessary.

[KH7672 1,604]

48 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Second verse ... same as the first. 

*Scoff* What?! I have no idea what you're referring to.  

Still just trying to understand the writting legitimacy behind more complaints on her character, but yeah, I know this is pretty much like my last thread.

54 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Tell her she screwed up, it was her fault, and that she has to help him fix it. 

 

 

So you think there (and "A Royal Problem" from the last time) the show is handling her actions better and this criticism doesn't hold up, but what about ELTSD handling her or was it done well enough as well?

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Scott free? Twilight was pretty much telling her how bad her idea was in A Royal Problem and we soon find out that it was a good thing, Starlight made the right call, what she did was bad but it was good she had the guts to do it in the first place, it needed to happen. Punishing her for that would make me think less of the princesses.

Thorax did tell off Starlight in To Change a Changeling and she quickly realized she was wrong and tried to remedy the situation. 

In Every Little Things she does, she not only acknowledges her mistake, but corrects it by doing what she should have done in the first place.

 

This isn't a flaw with Starlights character, we have seen it done with many characters, Twilight got off with no punishment for starting a ponyville civil war, which is worse than what Starlight was doing in The Cutie Map, Rainbow Dash got off with no punishment for sabotaging the weather factory, and even Fluttershy got off scott free for sending dozens of animals into a very important annual party. 

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

I am always surprised how fixated people are about starlight not getting any punishment, when the other characters are just as guilty as well. Characters like Discord, Spike, Twilight, Rainbow Dash all screwed up at somepoint and i never seen them getting punishment.

I think Starlight has been handled very well last season and i like her status as a main character. Yeah, she does screw up, but i think making her perfect would be even worse then anything she has done before, because nobody can relate to a perfect and flawless character.

This show was made with the idea that characters learn from their mistakes, since every episode has a moral behind it. That's why no one gets any sort of heavy punishment, especially since this is a very idealistic show.

[Goat-kun 2,495]

Do not waver. They all shall answer for their sins soon enough. No god, no message, no moral can stave off the ultimate judgment. First comes winter, then comes twilight, then it's our turn.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Goat-kun

[Castle Bleck 19,163]

In All Bottled Up, her only target was herself, and everypony else affected were only accidents; furthermore, it gave her a "hangover" similar to what she caused the Mane 5 in Every Little Thing She Does (so she did pay for that, even if it was delayed), and she unhesitantly offered to help fix any property damage (e.g., Bulk Biceps's nut-cart).

 

And in A Royal Problem, her switching the Sisters' Marks was clearly heat-of-the-moment instead of calculated, and she received one Tartarus of a nervous breakdown during the fight between NMM and Daybreaker.

 

So, not really seeing any "scot-free" here.

Edited December 13, 2017 by A.V.

[KH7672 1,604]

20 minutes ago, A.V. said:

So, not really seeing any "scot-free" here.

I see, and that is what I'm trying to figure out. I've come to understand the logic behind many complaints about her so far, but this one...from what I've seen it seems to come just from a mindset of those that dislike her but no actual issues in the show's execution.

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

58 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I see, and that is what I'm trying to figure out. I've come to understand the logic behind many complaints about her so far, but this one...from what I've seen it seems to come just from a mindset of those that dislike her but no actual issues in the show's execution.

That’s actually why I have a hard time taking people who say Starlight is a bad character seriously. I’ve yet to see one criticism of her that isn't either just a matter of opinion, or has been present in the show long before she was introduced, but it’s only an issue when she does it.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

50 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I see, and that is what I'm trying to figure out. I've come to understand the logic behind many complaints about her so far, but this one...from what I've seen it seems to come just from a mindset of those that dislike her but no actual issues in the show's execution.

People want the 'actual' punishment for her reckless behaviors, like some physical punishment, i guess? Like 'taste your own medicine' or 'karma is a bitch' or 'redemption means death' or 'an eye to an eye' etc, just pick one.

In ELTSD, Starlight realized her mistake, apologized and made up for that (do all friendship activities) and she learned her lessons about how not to use magic for friendship activities, she actually learn to make the tea cake by recipes from Pinikie Pie (All Bottled Up) and just test the spell when Mane 6 are not at home... She learned her lessons and is that the point of Friendship is Magic? Learn a lesson and keep becoming a better person? Nah, people just expect more than just some childish lesson learning episodes...

[Jeric 46,834]

14 hours ago, KH7672 said:

but what about ELTSD handling her or was it done well enough as well?

I'm not a huge fan of ELTSD, personally. I think the criticisms of the episode's execution we're valid, but in the conflict and in the animation designed to convey the thoughts and emotional state of the characters. It's a decidedly mixed bag for me. 

All that said, I'm certainly not going to let one bad showing up a character define how I see that character. My favorites on the show have had some stinkers. For instance, Rarity got off with no punishment in S&E, and I don't use that episode to define how I look at her characterization overall. There is a lot of selective criticism with Starlight that permeates this fandom. 

That's really the difference between me and some who are persistent in their criticism of Starlight. I can recognize when a character isn't executed effectively and say I didn't like it. Most people that have a favorite will tell you that they hate some moments of them in the show. Yet, I've seen more people that dislike a character to the point of obsession that do not give not one inch of ground conceding that they recognize a proper or effective execution of the character. 

It comes down to Psychology and a lot of biases and the general tendency to find it easier to criticize instead of praise. I mean, that very thing is why the chains have been moved on the use of words like average and mediocre which do not mean 'bad' ... but seemingly carry the connotation that something that something described as mediocre is bad.

The communal impact of sharing opinions is also in play here. I guarantee you that if you watch an episode and did not ever engage in reading or discussing it, your opinion would wind up being different than if you did. I watched enough of this show in a vacuum to even witness that happening to me ... and it takes effort to stop it. 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Jeric said:

I'm not a huge fan of ELTSD, personally. I think the criticisms of the episode's execution we're valid, but in the conflict and in the animation designed to convey the thoughts and emotional state of the characters. It's a decidedly mixed bag for me. 

All that said, I'm certainly not going to let one bad showing up a character define how I see that character. My favorites on the show have had some stinkers. For instance, Rarity got off with no punishment in S&E, and I don't use that episode to define how I look at her characterization overall. There is a lot of selective criticism with Starlight that permeates this fandom. 

That's really the difference between me and some who are persistent in their criticism of Starlight. I can recognize when a character isn't executed effectively and say I didn't like it. Most people that have a favorite will tell you that they hate some moments of them in the show. Yet, I've seen more people that dislike a character to the point of obsession that do not give not one inch of ground conceding that they recognize a proper or effective execution of the character. 

It comes down to Psychology and a lot of biases and the general tendency to find it easier to criticize instead of praise. I mean, that very thing is why the chains have been moved on the use of words like average and mediocre which do not mean 'bad' ... but seemingly carry the connotation that something that something described as mediocre is bad.

The communal impact of sharing opinions is also in play here. I guarantee you that if you watch an episode and did not ever engage in reading or discussing it, your opinion would wind up being different than if you did. I watched enough of this show in a vacuum to even witness that happening to me ... and it takes effort to stop it. 

 

That's exactly what changed my opinion of Starlight, actually. There are things I really don't like about her, but those things don't necessarily make her a bad character. Originally, the same thing explained how I felt about Rarity, and after a few years of hearing why my judgement wasn't really fair she became my number two favorite. Understanding that it isn't rational doesn't make it any easier to let a character encroach on your preferences but it does do them justice. 

I think this is the third topic I've seen about Starlight not being punished for her crimes. It wouldn't suit the narrative of the show to just throw her in the dungeon for a few years. Starlight's evolution can be seen as the same level of achievement for Twilight as Discord's reformation was for Fluttershy and that's what you're meant to take it as. The duality of responsibility in the trope of the wise king was to know when to dole out punishment for a crime, and when to show mercy. Twilight showed her mercy because she saw an opportunity for Starlight to realize her decisions were wrong and change for the better. That's a show of wisdom. I imagine punishing her for that would not only feel our of character for Twilight, but it would end up making people believe their decisions of judgement should be founded in resentment and every crime should be punished regardless of all factors. 

[Jeric 46,834]

15 minutes ago, Sunset Rose said:

I think this is the third topic I've seen about Starlight not being punished for her crimes.

It's the hot trend all the cool kids are talking about! 

Seriously though, I suspect that the Starlight discussion is a corollary to the general redemption discussion that is constant in the community. It's like the sitcom neighbor that pops in and raids your fridge. 

 

19 minutes ago, Sunset Rose said:

That's exactly what changed my opinion of Starlight, actually. There are things I really don't like about her, but those things don't necessarily make her a bad character. Originally, the same thing explained how I felt about Rarity, and after a few years of hearing why my judgement wasn't really fair she became my number two favorite. Understanding that it isn't rational doesn't make it any easier to let a character encroach on your preferences but it does do them justice. 

Oh for sure. Things like that make me wonder how accurate some of the studies on the boomerang effect were. My fault for not being clear. I was thinking about the settling of an opinion after initial thoughts and reaction. When left in a vacuum an impression will settle on one general opinion that will take root. If while you are contemplating your opinion, you see a general discussion trend one way or another, it influences your own opinion. 

Of course, generally there is also the initial high we feel with things that we liked on first viewing. I lost count of the number of concerts, movies, cons, etc I've attended that I walked out of thinking, 'BEST THING EVER!' I try and factor that in as well. 

In your case, and in mine with Rarity as well (I dismissed her after lipstick pone scene in Sonic Rainboom back in 2011), it sounds as if your opinion on the character settled and rooted taking some effort for a reconsideration. 

 

[KH7672 1,604]

3 hours ago, Sunset Rose said:

 I think this is the third topic I've seen about Starlight not being punished for her crimes.

Yeah, sorry....don't worry it's also my last one. I was just hoping to maybe get the mindset from those that dislike her, and I wanted to start fresh since I got too aggressive in my last one. Oh well glad to know this environment is so wonderfully open minded.

 

Hmm, maybe I could try a soap-box on EQD. They definitely have some diverse opinions. Or at least figure out if they really are expecting way too much than this show could and should give.

Edited December 4, 2017 by KH7672

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jeric said:

Oh for sure. Things like that make me wonder how accurate some of the studies on the boomerang effect were. My fault for not being clear. I was thinking about the settling of an opinion after initial thoughts and reaction. When left in a vacuum an impression will settle on one general opinion that will take root. If while you are contemplating your opinion, you see a general discussion trend one way or another, it influences your own opinion. 

Of course, generally there is also the initial high we feel with things that we liked on first viewing. I lost count of the number of concerts, movies, cons, etc I've attended that I walked out of thinking, 'BEST THING EVER!' I try and factor that in as well. 

In your case, and in mine with Rarity as well (I dismissed her after lipstick pone scene in Sonic Rainboom back in 2011), it sounds as if your opinion on the character settled and rooted taking some effort for a reconsideration. 

 

Well, I still have my sacred favorites so... I'm not exactly rational. (BUT I DON'T HAVE TO BE AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!)

I can't really call Starlight Twilight 2.0 anymore since her character has come into its own, but that sure was my less-than-flattering dismissal for her before I started trying to work out what it was people liked about her. Her hair is still really silly though.

 

9 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Yeah, sorry....don't worry it's also my last one. I was just hoping to maybe get the mindset from those that dislike her, and I wanted to start fresh since I got too agressive in my last one. Oh well glad to know this environment is so wonderfully open minded.

 

Hmm, maybe I could try a soap-box on EQD. They definitely have some diverse opinions. Or at least figure out if they really are expecting way too much than this show could and should give.

I don't like her because she takes focus from my favorite character and that's pretty much it. She did help introduce Sunburst as a character and in my opinion, that almost makes up for it as far as my arbitrary reasonings for liking or disliking characters go.

[Jeric 46,834]

54 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Or at least figure out if they really are expecting way too much than this show could and should give.

I always thought that was a natural symptom of any fandom involving adults. 

Anyway, there is generally nothing wrong with wanting something to be done better, or pointing out elements that you think were done by the show staff which fall below your expectations. 

1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

definitely have some diverse opinions

I love diversity of opinions and topics quite a bit. I usually only jump in with a salty tone of counter advocacy when I see the ugly head of obsessiveness come into the picture. Something that tends to invite repetition over diverse opinions if a subject is not given enough room to breathe between topics. It's my own weakness. 

 

55 minutes ago, Sunset Rose said:

She did help introduce Sunburst as a character

Unrelated, but hopefully his development in Season 7 isn't just a function of a thread needed to lead us to the finale. He's a relatively unique character on the show that should be explored further. He's a quirky dude! 

[Goat-kun 2,495]

2 hours ago, KH7672 said:

Yeah, sorry....don't worry it's also my last one. I was just hoping to maybe get the mindset from those that dislike her, and I wanted to start fresh since I got too aggressive in my last one. Oh well glad to know this environment is so wonderfully open minded.

 

Hmm, maybe I could try a soap-box on EQD. They definitely have some diverse opinions. Or at least figure out if they really are expecting way too much than this show could and should give.

Keep at it. My folders are full of anime girls with dank expressions that need to be used.

 

Anyhow, it's not about the punishment. To put it into very simple words: I hate Starlight since I put lore, story, and rule of cool before lessons. From my position she is obsolete; an easily discarded crutch of our glorious writers whose character development skills seem to have limitations. Time and information changes the situation. As things stand, this one is not the only character that should be purged or recycled for the greater good of the IP. #CiderDeathSquads#FreeAirshipRides

 

EQD has diverse opinions?

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

7 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Keep at it. My folders are full of anime girls with dank expressions that need to be used.

 

 

 

Anyhow, it's not about the punishment. To put it into very simple words: I hate Starlight since I put lore, story, and rule of cool before lessons. From my position she is obsolete; an easily discarded crutch of our glorious writers whose character development skills seem to have limitations. Time and information changes the situation. As things stand, this one is not the only character that should be purged or recycled for the greater good of the IP. #CiderDeathSquads#FreeAirshipRides

 

 

 

EQD has diverse opinions?

 

 

 

Yes, there are 3 major opinions

Hating Starlight

loving Starlight

I stopped liking the show so I don't care and am just here to be cynical

 

Anyway on topic, I guess I am in the minority for 1.) Liking ELTSD and 2.) Thinking Starlights resolution was fair enough.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Ryanmahaffe

[Goat-kun 2,495]

3 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Yes, there are 3 major opinions

Hating Starlight

loving Starlight

I stopped liking the show so I don't care and am just here to be cynical

 

Anyway on topic, I guess I am in the minority for 1.) Liking ELTSD and 2.) Thinking Starlights resolution was fair enough.

Is there a multi-choice option? Though I'm afraid there is no option that fits my sentiments. I was like this from the very beginning. You can call me one of the great old evils

[KH7672 1,604]

3 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Anyway on topic, I guess I am in the minority for 1.) Liking ELTSD and 2.) Thinking Starlights resolution was fair enough.

I know this hasn't been the clearest since I've been very wishy-washy in these threads; mostly just to tackle these opinions unbiased and understand both sides but I'll be real with you:

1) Loved it since it first aired. Favorite Starlight episode of Season 6 just because of how much character risk they took with it, and the comedy aspects. I've been seen in other threads in defense of this episode a couple times.

2) While I won't say I thought it was fair from the start, in fact very neutral from the finale, once the Season 6 premiere aired and I could see why they gave such a resolution and were planning to expand upon it, I was totally on board. (I don't say she is-and always will be despite others opinions-my fourth favorite character for nothing).

[sweetolebob18 724]

Yes, Starlight gets off easy.  But this show has a history of letting folks off with a scolding

Fluttershy  trashed the Gala in Best Night Ever

Discord & the Smooze did the same the next year

Twilight mind controlled the town into a riot in Lesson Zero

Dash wrecked the weather factory in Tanks for the Memories

Pinkie wrecked havoc in Too Many Pinkies

Spike ran amok in Secret of My Excess

I  could go on, but you get the point. No one got punished for any of that, so why should Starlight be punished?

[Mirage 24,040]

On 12/3/2017 at 11:34 PM, KH7672 said:

Still, is the show letting her get away with too much; is there something more that should have been done? How should have Twilight and the Re-Mane 5 acted in "Every Little Thing She Does?" How could have the Princesses reacted better in "A Royal Problem?" What more would Thorax have to have done to get her to understand the consequences of such actions?

Much of this is over-analyzing. The show is only about 22 minutes long, so the resolutions seem a bit fast and easy. That said, I don't see any special treatment of Starlight over any other who, frankly, have done equally freakish things.

In my opinion, Starlight is given a lot of freedom because she's a natural leader and she possesses great power. It's not wise to hold such beings in a vise grip. 

[EpicEnergy 22,064]

Starlight does need to be punished for her actions, and I think she doesn't get punished enough. The reason she gets off scot-free is likely just a result of poor writing.

[Tom Gallagher 33,521]

The Mane Six are a very forgiving bunch.