Why the Unfair Character Bashing?

[Jeric 46,834]

1 hour ago, ShootingStar159 said:

How do you know other people don’t do the same?

I can actually answer that ... but the answer would make me sound like the most conceited person on this forum. Ask a staffer one day about my skill set for identifying people. I got game cause people got tells. 

But your point about an echo chamber is a fair one. Yes, I do believe strongly that if left to their own devices absent the cacophonous complaining (meritorious or not), people who feel unfavorable toward Glimmer would have at least withheld judgement. 

[FlareGun45 2,221]

54 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Spike-Assisting and Helping out, Cooking, Rarity, Gems (his big interests and personality doesn't start showing up until Season 4 and 5).

Starlight-Magic, Kites, Trixie

And just to be fair to other big characters:

Sunset-Guitar, Athletics, Painting, and Video Games, various other school clubs (Granted half of these were displayed in shorts specifically tailored around this specific interest).

Discord-Causing Chaos, Fluttershy and her interests (but in later seasons).

1

Yep! Now there's friendship and reforming added for Starlight, and comic books, O&O, Hoofball, and being racial peacekeeper added to Spike! 

[Thrond 3,257]

11 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

The people who don't like her are more so stuck in the time rut that is her rushed redemption, and yet Discord, Sunset, and Tempest get a pass.

Kind of a generalization, no? 

11 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

But when I see a poll several thousand people voted on, and see Starlight taking away a vast majority of the votes, at that point I would say she is reaching fan favorite territory.

I honestly wonder what that poll would be like were it not exclusive to season 7.

[Goat-kun 2,496]

8 hours ago, Jeric said:

I can actually answer that ... but the answer would make me sound like the most conceited person on this forum. Ask a staffer one day about my skill set for identifying people. I got game cause people got tells. 

But your point about an echo chamber is a fair one. Yes, I do believe strongly that if left to their own devices absent the cacophonous complaining (meritorious or not), people who feel unfavorable toward Glimmer would have at least withheld judgement. 

An echo chamber is when people who hold very similar opinions only interact within the enclosed social space which only allows said kind of opinions. This makes you and your lovely adversary both wrong. What you are describing is "safety in numbers". It's not judgment they'd withhold, it's opinion. Absence of this safety is how fake news are made.

[Music Chart Fan 818]

20 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

But when I see a poll several thousand people voted on, and see Starlight taking away a vast majority of the votes, at that point I would say she is reaching fan favorite territory.

Are we to presume that the poll above (sourced from here) is the one to which you're referring? I have a few points to make about that.

First, by definition, a vote option receiving a majority of the votes means that it got more than 50% (i.e., more than half) of the total votes. So, as a factual matter, Starlight in the above poll did not receive a majority of the votes, let alone a "vast majority" of the votes.

Second, note that this poll is asking which of the poll options was the best character in Season 7. It is not asking about favorite character overall, as your statements about Starlight reaching "fan favorite" status would imply. Furthermore, this poll gives no indication of how strongly people felt about their votes. I recall seeing commenters when this poll was first posted who said that they thought Starlight had improved in Season 7, even as they still weren't necessarily enthusiastic about her overall. It's perfectly possible for people to have voted for Starlight in this poll while not considering her an overall favorite character - for example, they might believe that their other favorite character(s) didn't have the best showings in Season 7, or their favorite characters may not even be listed as poll options.

Finally, I think it's important to keep in mind that there's a significant chance that polls like this on Equestria Daily, MLP Forums, etc. are not taking a rigorously representative sample of the fandom overall. These are voluntary polls which only regular visitors to these sites are likely to see in the first place. In the case of Equestria Daily, the poll is only run for a week or so; on MLP Forums, even site members may not get around to reading a topic with a poll like this in a sub-section of the forums. So plenty of people who would have an opinion on a poll topic may not even see the poll in order to vote in it. Also, even people who do see the poll may not be willing, or may not feel able, to vote in it, for a variety of reasons. For example, maybe they have an opinion, but don't care enough about the poll to vote; maybe they can't decide between given poll options; or maybe they feel that none of the poll options represent their opinion well enough to vote for one.

As a result of these factors, the people who do end up voting in polls like these may be a self-selected group which is not representative of the entire fandom. So, in short, polls like these can be fun and spark discussion and so forth, but I don't think that voluntary polls which will only be seen by regular visitors to these sites should be cited as definitive proof of what the overall fandom thinks about any given topic.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

12 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Kind of a generalization, no? 

I honestly wonder what that poll would be like were it not exclusive to season 7.

I suppose I should have specified Starlight hater, as that is different from someone who just doesn't like Starlight.

I know people who don't like Starlight and are critical of her in many ways. I don't agree but their opinion is fine.

A Starlight hater is someone who refuses to even see a fair point of view and has decided to hate her as a character the second she was reformed in The Cutie Remark.

Kinda like how I like Starlight but do not think she is perfect, and a Starlight fanboy/girl thinks that she is the best thing to ever appear in the show or at least close to it and instantly disagree with any critique of her character.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

The poll was mentioned as it was added to  the fact that Starlight is unfairly bashed on by a niche group of people. 

As for the majority comment, if you add up the rest of the mane 6 and Spike it just barely is more votes than Starlight, so it is the vast majority when 1 is almost more than 6. Though Starlight is an obvious example of characters being bashed on for reasons that are in my opinion unfair. I think Zephyr is unfairly bashed, especially if it truly was because millennials got a wittle offended. I am a millennial and I thought he was funny yet annoying and I was happy when he turned himself around. I think when people bash a character, they mostly think of how they were for the majority of the episode, and for most of the hated characters, they are douche bags

[Buck Testa 5,503]

Zephyr Breeze is like looking at a stubbed toe. You feel Fluttershy's pain because you know it all too well if you've ever had mooch relatives. That is why people tend to hate characters like Zephyr or Svengallop more than people like Discord. These kinds of people exist, and they are insufferable assholes irl. Characters that remind you of those types of people are certainly going to garner that kind of reaction out of peeps who've experienced these types of pricks in their lives. Nobody is going to meet someone like Tirek or Sombra. Their evil is just too cartoonish to be a real person. Because of that, they don't get that emotional baggage that a more down to earth asshole like Svengallop would.  

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Buck Testa

[Will Guide 21,325]

10 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

Zephyr Breeze is like looking at a stubbed toe. You feel Fluttershy's pain because you know it all too well if you've ever had mooch relatives. That is why people tend to hate characters like Zephyr or Svengallop more than people like Discord. These kinds of people exist, and they are insufferable assholes irl. Characters that remind you of those types of people are certainly going to garner that kind of reaction out of people who've experienced these types of people in their lives. Nobody is going to meet someone like Tirek or Sombra. Their evil is just too cartoonish to be a real person. Because of that, they don't get that emotional baggage that a more down to earth asshole like Svengallop would.  

 

 

Well, at least Zephyr improves himself by actually finishing something for once like his Mane Therapy Training, which inspired real people who are scared of failure like me to go out and do something even though you might fail! His song, learned lesson, and turnaround in the last 3rd is much stronger and more important to take from than his jerk attitude in the first part! Fluttershy Did say she loves her brother and wanted to see him succeed. She just didn't like Zephyr's attitude. 

I hate the fact that people are constantly overlooking the last 3rd of that episode. Like there's nothing to learn from Zephyr at all.

Edited December 7, 2017 by WiiGuy2014

[Buck Testa 5,503]

1 minute ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

Well, at least Zephyr improves himself by actually finishing something for once like his Mane Therapy Training, which inspired real people who are scared of failure like me to go out and do something even though you might fail! His song, learned lesson, and turnaround in the last 3rd is much stronger and more important to take from than his jerk attitude in the first part! Fluttershy Did say she loves her brother and wanted to see him succeed. She just didn't like Zephyr's attitude. 

I think you're missing my point about the emotional baggage thing. It's less about Zephyr or Svengallop or whoever at that point and more about who they remind you of. Not that that is even a bad thing. Using real life inspirations to make a character distinctly unlikable helps garner real sympathy for the other character having to suffer through them. 

Also that change for Zephyr happened during a song that happened so suddenly that it gave me whiplash lol. Not really an actual point to this discussion I just thought that was kinda jarring when it happened.  

[Will Guide 21,325]

20 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

I think you're missing my point about the emotional baggage thing. It's less about Zephyr or Svengallop or whoever at that point and more about who they remind you of. Not that that is even a bad thing. Using real life inspirations to make a character distinctly unlikable helps garner real sympathy for the other character having to suffer through them. 

Also that change for Zephyr happened during a song that happened so suddenly that it gave me whiplash lol. Not really an actual point to this discussion I just thought that was kinda jarring when it happened.  

I see your point of emotional baggage in the first paragraph. It was unfair of Zephyr to mooch off his folks like that in the first half.

But it sounds to me that you're missing MY point that a jerk character who managed to improve himself for the better (in this case his fear of failure) can actually be an inspiration to some people to improve themseves! Unlike the other jerk like Flim-Flam bros. and Svengallop, who didn't learn anything!

Do you now see why I'm willing to forgive Zephyr as much as the Mane 6 has forgiven people who did so much worst, like Discord and Starlight?

EDIT: Because I relate to his fear of failure. So when I saw him succeed, it inspired me to finish University.

Edited December 7, 2017 by WiiGuy2014

[Goat-kun 2,496]

 

23 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

The poll was mentioned as it was added to  the fact that Starlight is unfairly bashed on by a niche group of people. 

As for the majority comment, if you add up the rest of the mane 6 and Spike it just barely is more votes than Starlight, so it is the vast majority when 1 is almost more than 6. Though Starlight is an obvious example of characters being bashed on for reasons that are in my opinion unfair. I think Zephyr is unfairly bashed, especially if it truly was because millennials got a wittle offended. I am a millennial and I thought he was funny yet annoying and I was happy when he turned himself around. I think when people bash a character, they mostly think of how they were for the majority of the episode, and for most of the hated characters, they are douche bags

 

Now to the topic at hand: there is no such thing as unfair bashing of a character as bashing is predominantly subjective. Stating it is unfair is claiming a fan must not feel a particular way, and that's just wrong. Isn't it weird that one is prepared to bash real people who bash imaginary characters?

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

43 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

If the method is inadequate, then you do not have your evidence. MCF gave a variety of reasons why your interpretation of the poll is inaccurate as is the weight your give to these numbers. If the lack of information and inability to gather data are my sins then I shall carry them proudly.

 

 

 

Now to the topic at hand: there is no such thing as unfair bashing of a character as bashing is predominantly subjective. Stating it is unfair is claiming a fan must not feel a particular way, and that's just wrong. Isn't it weird that one is prepared to bash real people who bash imaginary characters?

 

Saying "Starlight Glimmer is a horrible character because of her reformation" is unfair, because they are judging an entire character on one scene they feel was bad.

No one is "bashing" anyone here, so I don't know where that came from.

2 hours ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

I see your point of emotional baggage in the first paragraph. It was unfair of Zephyr to mooch off his folks like that in the first half.

But it sounds to me that you're missing MY point that a jerk character who managed to improve himself for the better (in this case his fear of failure) can actually be an inspiration to some people to improve themseves! Unlike the other jerk like Flim-Flam bros. and Svengallop, who didn't learn anything!

Do you now see why I'm willing to forgive Zephyr as much as the Mane 6 has forgiven people who did so much worst, like Discord and Starlight?

EDIT: Because I relate to his fear of failure. So when I saw him succeed, it inspired me to finish University.

I agree with this very much, and am glad that episode inspired you.

Honestly, I forgave Zephyr once he finally finished something he wanted to do. It was good to see and he improved from then on.

[Goat-kun 2,496]

1 minute ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Saying "Starlight Glimmer is a horrible character because of her reformation" is unfair, because they are judging an entire character on one scene they feel was bad.

No one is "bashing" anyone here, so I don't know where that came from.

It is unfair, to you. To someone else it's not. Now what? Are you gonna honestly claim they are wrong to have such opinion? We can argue about Starlight's reformation all day, but arguing about how someone feels about is just silly.

[AlbaTross 1,581]

I think it has less to do with what they've done and whether they've been reformed, and more to do with how likeable they were to begin with.  Starlight is a special case as fans perceive her as a spotlight hog, and while I personally like Starlight, I will concede that is somewhat true.  As for Zephyr Breeze and Feather Bangs, they are obnoxious archetypes, while with a character like Discord there are a lot of fun and creative visual gags that come with his appearance, along with suspending logic in an interesting manner.  I don't think people are actually fans of Zesty Gourmand.  In fact, critics hate that episode for portraying critics in a bad light, while even regular viewers can see that no effort was made to make her more than a one-dimensional character.  In that sense she's much worse than Zephyr or even Feather Bangs, and I haven't heard of anyone defending her.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

9 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

It is unfair, to you. To someone else it's not. Now what? Are you gonna honestly claim they are wrong to have such opinion? We can argue about Starlight's reformation all day, but arguing about how someone feels about is just silly.

 

No, it is literally poor critique to judge a character based on a single scene when they have had dozen of appearances after that. If someone said "well Starlight started off with such a rushed awful reformation and in my opinion, nothing she has done has been enjoyable or fun, and I really can't stand her personality or character" then that is plenty fair, but my point is hating Starlight and being so dismissive of anything good she has done just because of her reformation is unfair. Subjectively can only go so far.

What you are implying is that it would be okay for me to say I hate Twilight Sparkle because she didn't want to make friends in the first episode.

[Will Guide 21,325]

5 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

It is unfair, to you. To someone else it's not. Now what? Are you gonna honestly claim they are wrong to have such opinion? We can argue about Starlight's reformation all day, but arguing about how someone feels about is just silly.

 

It's unfair to me and to a lot of other fans because I see the same people bash the same character over and over as if they have nothing else to complain about. That's one of the reasons I made this topic. To understand why.

If you read my whole original post, you would know that I am more upset that people were treating characters who reformed as if they were the devil and yet forgive Characters who actually did so much worse like they did nothing wrong.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, AlbaTross said:

I think it has less to do with what they've done and whether they've been reformed, and more to do with how likeable they were to begin with.  Starlight is a special case as fans perceive her as a spotlight hog, and while I personally like Starlight, I will concede that is somewhat true.  As for Zephyr Breeze and Feather Bangs, they are obnoxious archetypes, while with a character like Discord there are a lot of fun and creative visual gags that come with his appearance, along with suspending logic in an interesting manner.  I don't think people are actually fans of Zesty Gourmand.  In fact, critics hate that episode for portraying critics in a bad light, while even regular viewers can see that no effort was made to make her more than a one-dimensional character.  In that sense she's much worse than Zephyr or even Feather Bangs, and I haven't heard of anyone defending her.

Well to be fair I haven't really heard anyone hating her either, she is like...completely forgotten because she had no staying power, but I wonder what people would think of her if she would have say, seen the error of her ways after trying the food.

[Will Guide 21,325]

17 minutes ago, AlbaTross said:

.  As for Zephyr Breeze and Feather Bangs, they are obnoxious archetypes, 

Did you not see my whole point that Zephyr actually improved himself AND had something to relate to. (His fear of Failure) I personally get annoyed when people are ignoring the fact that Zephyr CAN be relatable to certain fans in the right way. Like me.

I just wish Critics would stop acting that there was absolutely nothing good to Zephyr's character at all, when there CAN be something relatable. Can't any of you at least understand that?

Edited December 8, 2017 by WiiGuy2014

[Goat-kun 2,496]

15 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

No, it is literally poor critique to judge a character based on a single scene when they have had dozen of appearances after that. If someone said "well Starlight started off with such a rushed awful reformation and in my opinion, nothing she has done has been enjoyable or fun, and I really can't stand her personality or character" then that is plenty fair, but my point is hating Starlight and being so dismissive of anything good she has done just because of her reformation is unfair. Subjectively can only go so far.

What you are implying is that it would be okay for me to say I hate Twilight Sparkle because she didn't want to make friends in the first episode.

It's not wrong to hold such an opinion. The person who holds it doesn't care how a character is written and they don't have to. This is not a debate about how good a character is from a writer's perspective but from a viewer's. Viewers are the ones doing the bashing and they bash characters for a myriad of reasons both logical and strange. These sentiments mirror their personalities, their life experiences, and if these make you feel uneasy that's on you.

15 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

It's unfair to me and to a lot of other fans because I see the same people bash the same character over and over as if they have nothing else to complain about. That's one of the reasons I made this topic. To understand why.

If you read my whole original post, you would know that I am more upset that people were treating characters who reformed as if they were the devil and yet forgive Characters who actually did so much worse like they did nothing wrong.

I understand where you're coming form, but you must also understand that you feel this way because you are you. There are people in this fandom that are totally different. You can't fix this. It's better to just accept it and roll on. Not saying we shouldn't have conversations about it, but let's have all the sides properly represented. Now, ponies teach understanding leads to friendship, but it's not so, not always, and that's just fine.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

2 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

It's not wrong to hold such an opinion. The person who holds it doesn't care how a character is written and they don't have to. This is not a debate about how good a character is from a writer's perspective but from a viewer's. Viewers are the ones doing the bashing and they bash characters for a myriad of reasons both logical and strange. These sentiments mirror their personalities, their life experiences, and if these make you feel uneasy that's on you.

 

Well then my point would be they are being unfair and being judging a character unfairly. I don't see what the argument is here. It's not that they are wrong or objectively in the wrong, it is simply that they are being unfair to the character and not judging in a fair way.

[Will Guide 21,325]

7 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

I understand where you're coming form, but you must also understand that you feel this way because you are you. There are people in this fandom that are totally different. You can't fix this. It's better to just accept it and roll on. Not saying we shouldn't have conversations about it, but let's have all the sides properly represented. Now, ponies teach understanding leads to friendship, but it's not so, not always, and that's just fine.

Fair enough.

[Goat-kun 2,496]

11 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Well then my point would be they are being unfair and being judging a character unfairly. I don't see what the argument is here. It's not that they are wrong or objectively in the wrong, it is simply that they are being unfair to the character and not judging in a fair way.

This may read very conceited, but define "judging in a fair way".

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, Goat-kun said:

This may read very conceited, but define "judging in a fair way".

 

As said, I don't think hating Starlight just because her reformation and ignoring any scenes or developments after that is judging in a fair way. It's unfair, simply. Also as said, disliking for numerous reasons is fine even if I disagree, it's the people who can only ever say "Bad redemption" or "Mary Sue' that I say are unfair.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

Now to the topic at hand: there is no such thing as unfair bashing of a character as bashing is predominantly subjective. Stating it is unfair is claiming a fan must not feel a particular way, and that's just wrong. Isn't it weird that one is prepared to bash real people who bash imaginary characters?

I think this summarizes the topic perfectly.

I'm amazed at how much interest and favoritism in background characters exist in this fandom. That is something I hadn't experienced in other fandoms where people focus on main and secondary characters only. Now, I don't bash background characters but I couldn't care less about them either. I understand that many fans got involved in them because of all the fan theories and amazing fanart of them, but when talking about the show I have a hard time understanding when someone claims her favorite pony to be a background character.
Having said that, I wouldn't tell anyone to choose another favorite character because theirs are "not developed and are just there to fill crowds". On the other hand, no one can tell me either that I'm wrong on thinking about them that way. We're just people with a different focus on the show, each one takes what we feel it's important and that's that.