"Both Sides Have a Point": S7's most underlying plot theme

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

Note: Credit to @A.V. for linking to the trope on the EQD Forums several months ago, eventually leading me to inspiration for this thread. This thread is also connected to two other threads I created a while ago.

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One of S5's biggest strengths (aside from using the mane character's strengths to dominate the story at time) is telling a really mature story. When done right, it pulls no punches and tells a really compelling story with often mature and gray morals.

S7 follows up that level of maturity in many episodes, too, but also adds another important element into it: not dominating one side of the conflict. Named "Both Sides Have a Point" on TV Tropes, several episodes present the audience both sides of the story and expanded upon that. Examples include:

• Parental Glideance: Windy and Bow sometimes act really hyper and get to the point of sometimes embarrassing Dash by accident. Can it get overbearing? Depends on your perspective. However, Scootaloo doesn't have parents around her all the time and dreams of having parents like them, because she feels neglected back home and doesn't have parents that stick around and really appreciate her.
  
  So, was Dash justified to feel upset at them for crossing the line? Yes. Was she justified to suggest disownment of them because they embarrass her? No! She really crossed a major line and showed a lack of appreciation for both their support and sacrifices. The episode and moral are right on the money.
• Forever Filly: Rarity's overbearing attitude was written to be in the wrong, and the motive to trigger it was really flimsy, but she has a really good point. She loves SB and wants to generate the memories that bonded them. OTOH, Sweetie Belle isn't interested in those same passions, but doesn't exactly say she's too old to abandon them altogether. She has a really important job and doesn't want to neglect it.
• Perfect Pear: One of the grandest daddies here. While the Pears' and Apples' tribal hatred of each other is very silly in today's world, it wasn't the case back then, both in Equestrian timeline and our own. Both families competed for supremacy and profit in Ponyville, leading to this lifelong feud. Given historical context, you can see where they come from. Additionally, so do BC and Bright: They loved each other too much for their families to separate them.

But this plot presentation was used rather sparingly. Then To Change a Changeling aired, foreshadowing a major shift in the story structures for the rest of the season. Sure, TCaC could've written off Pharynx as some stereotypical throwback grump who hated change "just because" and wanted things to be the way they are. Instead, Lappin went for the high road: Pharynx hates the way the hive's run, because the Changeling kingdom is so complacent and doesn't prepare to keep the hive and its inhabitants safe. He has a very solid point, and luring the Maulwurf away doesn't guarantee their safety.

When Haber returned to the show, the gray approach to conflicts took off:

• Daring Done?: Daring's upset from the collateral damage she caused. While the episode could've absolved her of her guilt and paint Somnambula's residents as the bad guys, DD? doesn't do that. At least, not entirely. She learns at the very end to be more aware of her actions and the consequences they may carry. Secondly, the citizens are absolutely justified to be upset at the statue being destroyed. Somnambula was so important to the town that destroying her statue comes across as a desecration of their ancestry and history.
• Mane Thing: Despite being told in Rarity's POV, the episode paints neither her nor the citizens of Ponyville as the bad guy. Rarity's justifiably upset for losing her mane, and thus loses her voice. She covers herself from embarrassment and says nothing, but Ponyville doesn't recognize her, consequently.
• A Health of Info: Twilight is absolutely right; Fluttershy needs to rest. The episode hammers in that lesson: FS catches swamp fever from Zecora, because she wouldn't sleep (shooting her immune system), while Twilight did. However, AHoI goes out of its way to make you understand Fluttershy's position. She believes she caused Zecora to catch it and would do whatever it takes to help her heal. Can you blame FS for thinking this way? Not at all.
• Marks and Recreation: S7's most underrated episode, outside of All Bottled Up. Rumble was the episode's antagonist, but he has very real reasons to fear getting his cutie mark. He loves everything he does, and he fears getting a mark will ruin his love for them. Rather than shooting him down, M&R justifies it: Apple Bloom loves making potions with Zecora, and Rumble asks her when she last did it. She couldn't answer. Was his approach (sabotaging the camp and making everyone bored) extreme? Yes. But his fears weren't unfounded. The climax handles his fear brilliantly: letting Thunderlane (a WB) lead the charge by giving everyone at the camp activities they love doing, and Rumble joins in.
• Zeppelin: Fame written correctly. The fans have a very real reason to be on the cruise and are treated like real people. Star Tracker's awkwardness wasn't excused, but he wasn't a stereotype, either; he's a kid who's eager to make an impression. Think about this. If you won the opportunity to be with someone you idolize, would you be excited or nervous, too? Probably so.
  
  Most importantly, Twilight also has a point. She joined the cruise to hope she'll spend quality time with her family, and she accepted IW's deal so she and everyone else would be happy. She was justifiably hurt when she missed a moment so dear to her, but the episode acknowledges that taking her anger out on her family and not sincerely apologizing to Star for accidentally stepping on his hoof was out of line. Rather than undergoing the clichéd result of having fun and damn everyone else, Cadance informs her that she can establish her own boundaries, and Twilight asks everyone for peace.
• Uncommon Bond: Starlight understandably wants to bond more with Sunburst however she could, but Sunburst also has his own pastimes and accidentally gets caught up with her closest friends instead. Starlight's magic trick (changing the scene and themselves as if they were kids) was creepy, but it's in character, and the episode doesn't demonize her or him for that.
• Shadow Play: The granddaddy of this presentation. SP wasn't your straightforward good-vs.-evil story, even though the villains and heroes are established. Villains aren't completely encased in a vacuum. Heroes have their flaws and missteps, turning them into fuller beings. SP presented a high-quality story where you can understand everyone's perspective. That's how gray the conflict is.
  
  The Pillars are absolutely justified to feel upset at Stygian, accuse him of trying to steal their magic, and eject him from their group. During a very dark time in Equestria, Stygian stole their priceless artifacts and told them nothing about it. It was not a magically friendly era. But Stygian is also a person. He feels worthless in their group, since he's basically Equestria's Squib. Yes, he was wrong to steal, but you can see where he's coming from. Becoming one with the Pony of Shadows gives him status equal to his ex-friends, because the PoS listened and comforted him.
  
  On the other side, Twilight's reason to release Star Swirl et al from Limbo was really short-sighted of her, but her motives were also justifiable. Star Swirl and the Pillars altogether are Equestria's most important figures, and bringing them back can help make Equestria in a safer place. Unfortunately, she completely overlooked the PoS, and SS was rightfully ticked at her for it. She was so embarrassed for what she did that she did that she'll do anything to prove to him she's no slouch or idiot.
  
  With the PoS released and Ponehnge destroyed, the Elements were needed to push him back to Limbo and keep the Realm secure. But what the RM7 knew about the PoS was the story Sunburst told them and the Pillars' side of the story. To use the Elements to banish him again stung Starlight Glimmer, a former villain. Blasting them felt so extreme and didn't go after the source of the problem. Her strength as a detective took over here, and she was able to piece together the jigsaw puzzle.

Seasons four and five really brought forth a mature approach to storytelling in FIM by telling really risky and adult conflicts and attaching gray morals, but S7's presentation feels even more mature by telling really gray stories. Many earlier seasons' conflicts were mostly one-sided, although they did go to a middleground at times; whether they succeeded or not depended on the execution.

So, why is it important to tell a gray story? Like telling a deep moral or theme, you're showing a respect to the audiences watching it. FIM is an all-ages, family-family program with very young kids as the base demographic. Like I wrote in one of the threads linked above, kids may not the mature brain development as adults, but they understand respect. You're not talking down to them by writing a deep, multi-sided story. High-quality, gray stories show children stories and characters don't have to be so black and white. Some of FIM's best episodes prior to S7 — like Sisterhooves, Amending Fences, Mane Attraction, Lesson Zero, Winter Wrap Up, Testing Testing, Flight, Fault, and Times — were told through a multi-sided conflict. S7B ran with this trope and was successful most of the time. The majority of S7B would not have benefited without that complex approach.

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So, here are some questions for those reading my thread:

1. What episode(s) would greatly benefit by telling a multi-sided conflict than one only? How would you revise the episode to make it better?
2. What do you feel about S7's gray approach to their stories? Do you hope Seasons 8 and beyond continue to follow through it?
3. Do you have any possible episode ideas that could tackle a conflict while validating both or more points equally? How would you go about it?
4. Which episodic themes do you want to see tackled in a multi-sided perspective rather than have just one shot down and ignored?

Edited December 10, 2017 by Dark Qiviut

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Secrets and Pies, Rainbow might have been wrong but we still could see where she came from. 

[Vocal Analyst 665]

Since the Castle Of Friendship came into being, I have noticed the subtle shift in conflict and moral divides to become more consensus based than in seasons prior, yet until this topic came through, it wasn't as starkly apparent to me. In the first four seasons we often saw the immediate conflict stem from a misunderstanding or a difference in opinion being converted round to a the friendlier, more civilised 'better' option... that or it's a one-sided as sin in comparison to the alignment spectrum that it has to lie on. As @Dark Qiviut noted, it's all about finding a middle ground, where all can share their points and establish a stable platform where both can stand on their own and an understanding is reached.

This is especially the case as they followed up from Party Pooped, Gauntlet Of Fire and The Times They Are A Changeling/To Where And Back Again this season to where we see how those societies have progressed since their socio-political ideologies were shifted. Hell, as Marks And Recreation noted, Cutie Marks significance isn't the be all and end all that it used to be, as it's now been established, much like Testing Testing 123 that everyone tackles it differently, leading both parties to come to terms with their opinions after divergence nearly caused irreparable damage. Then again, Season 7 showed that highlighting both sides of an argument and trying to bridge that gap isn't always successful as Fame And Misfortune noted... not every argument can be settled with consensus and it'll continue to rage forevermore.

[Jeric 46,834]

Considering I rate Season 7 as my favorite, and usually I'll cite the fact that many of the best episodes this season felt personally relevant as the reason, the truth is that this season was dense with conflicts that weren't so clear cut. That was a genuine surprise for me as I honestly thought that Season 5 was going to be as good as it got. 

I can seen myself agreeing partly with both sides, or in Perfect Pear's case have a great deal of empathy for the Grand Pear's story. In fact, in the last year in my personal life, I have been on both sides of the same conflict we saw in Health of Information. It's one thing to design a story so that you can relate to a character's dilemma, it's a more elevated approach to storytelling to create something that you can see yourself in on both sides. 

I would like to see an episode where Applejack realizes that Big Mac's romance with Sugarbelle is getting serious and she struggles with the knowledge that he might leave Sweet Apple Acres, and when Big Mac finds out about this being a concern of Applejack he starts to worry that he may have to choose ... something that he never considered. As long as no one issues an ultimatum, it presents a very interesting conflict that could be more internal for each of them than them necessarily them in opposition to each other. 

Or 

What if Big Mac gets engaged to Sugarbelle, but neither wants to leave their home, each presenting valid reason for wanting to stay. 

Or 

What if Rarity realizes that Coco or Sassy may be stretched too thin and has to actually consider letting them go, but perhaps Rarity isn't doing all she can to support her store managers as an owner because she is stretched too thin. That may not fit with Rarity's element if they don't thread that needle carefully though. 

[Props Valroa 26,029]

I think season 8 should go with the moral grey instead of the black and white that the show has done in the past. As for themes and stuff, I want to see the dark being seen in the good light for once. We see too much of darkness being associated with corruption, evil, envy, etc. Why don't we switch that up a bit to make it interesting?

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

28 minutes ago, Vocal Analyst said:

Then again, Season 7 showed that highlighting both sides of an argument and trying to bridge that gap isn't always successful as Fame And Misfortune noted... not every argument can be settled with consensus and it'll continue to rage forevermore.

Ironically, F&M's plot's so one-sided that attempting to approach a middleground resolution lacked sense, stuck the abusive straw fans out even further, and damned the premise even more. It requires a major toning down of the episode's cruel tone and complete rewrite of its story and conflict drive to make it truly work.

45 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

I’m surprised you didn’t mention Secrets and Pies, Rainbow might have been wrong but we still could see where she came from. 

That's a fair point. Pinkie acted so obsessed to the point of creepy and Rainbow was reckless at times, so my distaste for the episode might've clouded how I saw the presentation play out.

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@Califorum An episode or two-parter portraying light and hope as the bad guy (or something not so purely good) is a really grand risk that kinda deserves some level of undertaking. That said, you may wanna give both light and darkness specific traits, or you're just writing a "light-vs.-darkness" story with only a palette swap to distinguish them.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Dark Qiviut

[Props Valroa 26,029]

2 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

 

@Califorum An episode or two-parter portraying light and hope as the bad guy (or something not so purely good) is a really grand risk that kinda deserves some level of undertaking. That said, you may wanna give both light and darkness specific traits, or you're just writing a "light-vs.-darkness" story with only a palette swap to distinguish them.

Probably yeah. Light is usually something to gather attention, to lead. Perhaps a mayor or a pony in a high position of power with an association with light could be the 'bad guy'. Darkness is usually something that hides, and is often independent from everything else and is shunned.

[Goat-kun 2,498]

Entities with a very different yet still correct approach to friendship philosophy where?

 

Grizzled griffin unicorn hunter with a top hat and a tragic pony-magic induced past where?

Genuine dark mages who can use their heretical powers for good but can still nullify/get toasted by sparkly bullshit magic where?

Feared monster lords whose absence or defeat would incentivize lesser yet more numerous monsters to go on an unmanageable rampage where?

Edited December 9, 2017 by Goat-kun

[King of Canterlot 9,588]

It's kinda fun to go back and watch episodes from season one, with how simple the plots and conflicts were, along with how flat all the characters were. Now when you watch the most recent season, you can really tell the show has "grown up" with how complex the characters and plots are now with the story being told from multiple angles. 

[Hierok 11,829]

7 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

 So, here are some questions for those reading my thread:

1. What episode(s) would greatly benefit by telling a multi-sided conflict than one only? How would you revise the episode to make it better?
2. What do you feel about S7's gray approach to their stories? Do you hope Seasons 8 and beyond continue to follow through it?
3. Do you have any possible episode ideas that could tackle a conflict while validating both or more points equally? How would you go about it?
4. Which episodic themes do you want to see tackled in a multi-sided perspective rather than have just one shot down and ignored?

1. I wished Return of Harmony would have a story with two sides. I always feel like Discord side was not explained enough. 
2. Yes. S7 was amazing because of these episodes. Especially after S6.
3. The return of Chrysalis. Please do not reform her, but let the mane 6 know how she felt. And maybe then a reformation.
4. Love and villains.

[RulesofRarity 489]

No. Stygian did not have a point, he made no effort to try and tell the pillars why he stole their artifacts. He instead chose to seek revenge and then act like a wronged “innocent”. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by RulesofRarity

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

@RulesofRarity Wrong. Stygian does have a point. He researched all the beasts they faced and strategized upcoming battles. But since he's so weak physically and magically, he was never credited. To him, if he doesn't become a Pillar, he'll never gain the gratitude that his friends got. He stole the artifacts to become a seventh Pillar in hopes of gaining that respect. Rather than listen to him, they assume he's out for evil's gain and ejected him. The Pony of Shadows, meanwhile, listened to him, which is why they became one. Was it wrong for him to steal? Definitely. But we can see where he's coming from and empathize with him as a result. SP is a very gray episode, and Stygian's story's one big reason why.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

2 hours ago, RulesofRarity said:

No. Stygian did not have a point, he made no effort to try and tell the pillars why he stole their artifacts. He instead chose to seek revenge and then act like a wronged “innocent”. 

No true, we see in the flash back that he was getting ready to speak, but Starswirl shunned him.

The shadow possessed him and used him.

This post highlights one of the best aspects of season 7, even Sable Spirit initially had simple intentions, but once she failed, she chose to seek power instead of beauty. Season 7 was very gray, very little black and white. Which proved to be interesting, compelling, and just fun to watch. Season 7 is my favorite because it feels like the writing took a huge step up.

[RulesofRarity 489]

@Dark Qiviut @Ryanmahaffe Personally, I can’t sympathise with a character who instead of talking about how he felt to the Pillars, decided to go behind their backs and steal their personal objects of great power. The Pillars reacted accordingly and casted him out. And the funny thing is that if Stygian had just gone and talked to them instead of resorting to thievery he would’ve never had to pour his heart out to the Shadow and would’ve never became fused with it in the first place. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by RulesofRarity

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

@RulesofRarity You're not fully thinking why he stole them. Stygian stole the artifacts, because nobody appreciated him, not even the Pillars. He was an outcast among the group and Equestrian society as a whole. He wanted everyone's respect.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

'Both sides have a point' is one of my favorite tropes, i mentioned about how i like this kind of story in some episode thread like No Second Prances, Amending Fences etc. Especially, the S7 episode, To change a Changeling, is my favorite episode for that reason, Lappin completely redeemed himself after his Honest Apple. Grey morals make conflicts more interesting than a clear cut 'this guy is 100% wrong and that guy is 100% right'.

I didnt dismiss 'Black & White' kind of stories, if the story is entertaining then who care, some best episodes dont even need much complexity to be great.

 

[Singe 2,109]

21 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

What episode(s) would greatly benefit by telling a multi-sided conflict than one only? How would you revise the episode to make it better?

Wonderbolts Academy. We don't get Spitfire's side for putting the two best fliers Lightning Dust and Rainbow Dash together and why the Academy was ran the way it was. It would also need to hear from Lightning Dust's perspective than just Rainbow Dash.

[Thrond 3,257]

23 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

• What do you feel about S7's gray approach to their stories? Do you hope Seasons 8 and beyond continue to follow through it?

I'll deal with this question first, because I don't entirely agree with your premise. I see where you're coming from, as season 7 very frequently attempted to give its characters complicated motivations... but in many of these cases, I was never led to actually consider their train of thought might be correct. These motivations don't humanize their characters so much as set up arguments for the protagonists to knock down. 

"Forever Filly" is a great example of this. Rarity's overbearing behaviour is clearly exaggerated for comic and narrative effect, but Sweetie doesn't get the same treatment. Rarity's motivations are superficially sympathetic, but her behaviour is immediately and obviously represented as wrong, and she spends most of the episode as a joke and an opposing force and little else. She doesn't even learn the moral on her own. Sure, giving her that sympathetic motivation does make the story inherently richer, but that's not the same as a "morally grey" story. You know what she's doing is incorrect behaviour, and you know it immediately, because the episode gives us absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. This particular story doesn't need that, but we don't see Rarity struggle enough to fully sympathize. 

"Daring Done?" and "Marks and Recreation" are even better examples. In the former, the town has only turned against Daring because of Caballeron's manipulation, and in the latter, Rumble's complaints are just him projecting his own insecurities. In both episodes, the protagonists (except Daring) never consider that the opposing viewpoint may be correct, and from start to finish, the narrative trajectory revolves around proving it wrong. The moral style isn't so much ambiguous as polemic. And yes, that's true of "Shadow Play" as well, where the conflict between Stygian and the Pillars is only a backdrop to Starlight needing to convince Starswirl to give empathy a chance. Starlight doubts herself, but never for very long, and there's no textual reason to believe she's wrong. 

I also think this is true to varying extents in "Parental Glideance" and "The Perfect Pear," though I actually like both of those cases. "Zeppelin," meanwhile, is all about Twilight not having a point - specifically, regarding her perceived need to ignore her own boundaries in order to enhance everyone else's vacation. Your stated examples of "A Health of Information" and "Uncommon Bond" fit this pretty well, though, and I do favour more nuanced characterization, but in my eyes, season 7's efforts often came hand-in-hand with a notable decrease in subtlety and a general decline in narrative balance. That's not always needed, but when your conflict is explicitly an ideological difference, it's not enough unless you actually challenge the protagonists' belief system. 

23 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

• What episode(s) would greatly benefit by telling a multi-sided conflict than one only? How would you revise the episode to make it better?

"Bats!" comes to mind right away. Like the episodes I mentioned above, it would benefit from a more balanced narrative which pays respect to the opposing side. Perhaps, instead of turning to magic, Fluttershy and Applejack could discuss some way to harmlessly move the fruit bats off the farm while also finding somewhere else for them to live. But then I guess we wouldn't have a story. 

In Equestria Girls, "Mirror Magic" might have been a little less appalling if Juniper was given a remotely sympathetic motivation. 

"Fluttershy Leans In" and "Fame and Misfortune" are both obvious answers, although I think both are cases where adding nuance would change the moral entirely. 

"Canterlot Boutique" in particular comes to mind. I always felt like Sassy Saddles had an understandable model going, whereas Rarity would not have been so unhappy if she hadn't taken all that work on herself. I would rather have made it a story about the merits and demerits of Sassy's factory model, but I wonder if that would be too adult and technical for the target audience. 

I actually noticed a lot of episodes in season 7 mostly came about due to failures in communication, and I distantly admired that enough that I'd like to see a later season double down on it with more of a comedic focus. 

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

2 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I see where you're coming from, as season 7 very frequently attempted to give its characters complicated motivations... but in many of these cases, I was never led to actually consider their train of thought might be correct.

It's less of their thoughts being "correct" and more of validating or justifying their points. Even though characters like Rarity in Filly and Rumble in M&R are written to be in the wrong, their thoughts and feelings aren't. We witness their perspectives, and the audience can understand what they're feeling at that point. Rarity's comedy and desperation to rekindle sister-bonding pastimes counterbalances with SB's serious, more "grown-up" approach to undertaking her duties. Rumble's approach to stopping the cutie mark — thrusting his false sense of security upon others — was wrong, but the episode doesn't step on his worries or shoots him down for them, instead showing him through TL how one's ability doesn't strip them of their essence.

2 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

In the former, the town has only turned against Daring because of Caballeron's manipulation

Caballeron isn't the only one to blame. Daring destroyed someone's cart and Somnambula's dedication statue, giving him the leeway to manipulate them and blame her further.

2 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

"Zeppelin," meanwhile, is all about Twilight not having a point - specifically, regarding her perceived need to ignore her own boundaries in order to enhance everyone else's vacation.

Except Twilight does have one. Twilight wants to spend quality time with her family, but also doesn't want to disappoint every guest aboard the cruise. At the time she made her deal with Iron Will, she was caught between a rock and a hard place. She said nothing about Star standing awkwardly close to her, because she didn't want to upset him, wanted to live by her end of the bargain, and he was just a kid. Missing the Northern Stars pushed her to her limit. She needed guidance to know where to set up her boundaries (foreshadowed by Cadance picking up Flurry after parents nudged their babies too close to her) and how she crossed the line by snapping at everyone.

[Thrond 3,257]

44 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Rarity's comedy and desperation to rekindle sister-bonding pastimes counterbalances with SB's serious, more "grown-up" approach to undertaking her duties.

I don't find this very satisfying, but I suppose it's correct. Because all of Rarity's behaviour either stems from her needing to learn a moral or exists to justify her learning a moral, the whole story came to feel kinda like a lecture.

In the future, I would like the show to indulge more in digressions which might give the characters more room to breathe and make them more than just mouthpieces for ideas, not to mention maybe not making characters suddenly insensitive just to make a moral work. 

44 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Rumble's approach to stopping the cutie mark — thrusting his false sense of security upon others — was wrong, but the episode doesn't step on his worries or shoots him down for them, instead showing him through TL how one's ability doesn't strip them of their essence.

Technically true, but I would have liked his actual fears to take greater precedence earlier. The episode doesn't confer a lot of legitimacy to the anti-Cutie Mark argument. 

48 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Caballeron isn't the only one to blame. Daring destroyed someone's cart and Somnambula's dedication statue, giving him the leeway to manipulate them and blame her further.

Did Daring apologize at the end? I recall her being mostly absolved of all that, but perhaps I'm misremembering. 

 

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

14 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Did Daring apologize at the end? I recall her being mostly absolved of all that, but perhaps I'm misremembering.

She fixed, or paid to fix everything she destroyed at the end, I consider that better than just an apology.

[Thrond 3,257]

3 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

She fixed, or paid to fix everything she destroyed at the end, I consider that better than just an apology.

Ah, okay.