Is starlight glimmer that bad of a character

[MAIKUN 262]

Come on guys, she's still FREAKING evil....right?

[Jeric 46,834]

2 hours ago, MAIKUN said:

Come on guys, she's still FREAKING evil....right?

I'm pretty sure a reasonable person should be able to determine how those that replied to this thread would answer to that question by simply looking at the responses ... right?

[Goat-kun 2,498]

6 hours ago, Jeric said:

This is an interesting question, and not one that is often asked on this site. The list of bad character red flags tends to be miles longer than the opposite. I'll stay clear of TV trope definitions since I think they may be a bit over-utilized in fandom conversation.

One element that signifies a bad character is a revelation of a trait or attribute that seemingly comes out of nowhere. Surprisingly, with respect to Starlight, this applies in Season Five and Season Six. While she was initially shown as competent with magic, the degree of that skill was ratcheted up to place her at an even playing field with Twilight. While I don't have a problem with that by itself, the writers missed an opportunity to flesh out exactly how she was so skilled. 

In Season Six, she had a personality transplant of sorts. Her anger was too quickly replaced with social ineptitude and it wasn't until Season Seven that we saw an increase in saltiness. Though it was welcome for me, it also felt a little like whiplash considering they seemed to be going in another direction in Season Six. 

I'm generally not a fan of how they got the character from point A to B, and like some, I'm not entirely certain the writers knew what to do with her at first. 

While I am quite fond of the character now, I can't ignore the mistakes in trying to evolve her, and those sorts of mistakes can be a death blow to most characters for most people. 

I'll circle back because there are more mistakes that do want to mention, perhaps with literary characters as a good compare and contrast of similar issues. 

I agree with this assessment.

 

I come from anime. We weebs have the Three Episode Rule (it's more of a guideline though). It means that if a show isn't interesting after three episodes you drop it. Anime is a hypercompetitive industry with many similar shows and its creators need to bring their A game from the start to retain the audience.

 

Back to ponies. In the very first episode of FIM we meet Mane 6 and we immediately get to understand what kind of ponies they are. This is the kind of show where personalities are very important as well as character interactions. It took Starlight three whole seasons to get to the point where I can say: Meh, she's alright. She still has no chemistry with Mane 6 and from what I saw she won't gain it in the next season. Now, I kinda figured out what she's supposed to be doing, but from her looks, hobby, friendships, and everyday activities I can't tell you what she's supposed to be. A good FIM character needs only looks, body language, and a decent voice to inform the viewer in a few seconds flat. You need one two-parter for a redeemable villain, two if you are planning to include a story arc. If you need three seasons to get a pony's shit together you made yourself a bad character for the job. And any character would become decent if you had the luxury to work on them for such a long time. This might seem harsh to many but it doesn't matter what they do with her. The only thing that matters is that they recognize Starlight as a mistake she is and never repeat it again. Let this be a valuable lesson in character creation.

[ShiftyLips69 24]

She's friends with Discord, she replaces Twilight as the protagonist where she's involved in an episode, she always seems to know what to do and can relate to the character that is causing a problem, she used to be a Nazi Socialist cult leader combo villain, and was suddenly reformed after a somewhat worthwhile attempt at revenge, just like Sunset, and she likes kites even though they weren't canon until she arrived, essentially making them canon. Overall, I rate her 4/10 which is better than Celestia, so at least she isn't the worst character.

 

Image of grass:

[KH7672 1,604]

8 hours ago, Jeric said:

In Season Six, she had a personality transplant of sorts. Her anger was too quickly replaced with social ineptitude and it wasn't until Season Seven that we saw an increase in saltiness. Though it was welcome for me, it also felt a little like whiplash considering they seemed to be going in another direction in Season Six. 

I'm generally not a fan of how they got the character from point A to B, and like some, I'm not entirely certain the writers knew what to do with her at first.

I do find it interesting this notion that Starlight was written with no direction. I will admit there was definitely no broader scheme, like the rest of the Mane 6, there was still some idea of how they wanted to handle her in Season 6 and that was to build her back up again from all the mistakes she made.

1) Have her re-kindle her old friendship that sent her down the path

2) Have learn to make new friends her own way showing she had nothing to fear growing up (this albeit was the most botched and I'll get to that later).

3) With said new friends get to know them better as a friendship is two sided. They are not there just to make you happy and succeed and you are not there just to do things they want. She never saw that other side growing up feeling cutie marks were going to take liberty over friendship so she wasn't going to let her "friends" have what they want in fear of her not living up to those expectations, such as baking or stitching properly, so she did things in order to make sure their friendship would stay constant and done her way, and she needed to get over that self centeredness.

4) Finally, boost her internal confidence back up to where she was as a villain, but this time on the side of good. Show her that she still has the ability to lead, she just needed to understand the two sided perspective of a leader similar to 3.

Now that you have a character confident in herself and no longer unwilling to jump into unfamiliar situations. Time to throw those situations at her and see how she fairs.

The only time she no longer had that confidence in herself was either after feelimg doubt by Twilight and the Princesses or "Uncommon Bond" which in itself is a different story.

Interestingly you described this lack of confidence feeding into social ineptitude which anger and I am left questioning why and when?

Why was she more prone to anger as a villain and why don't we see it again until ABU besides the excuse of "oh she's good now so we can't let anything negative affect her while we try to make her likable and relatable through social ineptitude." Looking back at her time as a villain the only time she would get angry is when she was called out for being wrong or being ignored. Well where in Season 6 was she ever ignored? I think the closest was Spike not following her wishes to not see Sunburst, Twilight not trusting her to make friends and Trixie and Discord arguing constantly both of which cases had a fair amount of her subtle anger and snark to shine through. And then again when was she called out for being in the wrong? Well ELTSD has her in the wrong, however, unlike her time as a villain when being told she was wrong she fully believed she was right vs that episode where she already knew she messed up badly by the time she was called out so would retaliating do? It seems Season 6 just did not give her enough opportunity to feed off her anger but did they really opt for social ineptitude instead? This is where it gets complicated. 

Like I said in the recap half of these socially inept moments are done when she is to face times when she messed upin the past, and there is the natural fear that she may mess up again because after the realization that she's been acting in the wrong most her life, how is she to act now that her confidence drive is gone? Well like a normal member of society obviously, and this is where she was slightly messed with to serve the plot. The most infuriating occurrence is "No Second Prances" which does establish a sort of ineptitude when interacting that lead to a worse fear in others judging her, which could have easily been flipped for the better to make the fear on her, not others, for messing up. It is a problem I do overlook but not one I deny was present. Then this leads into, again ELTSD, which if you believe was fueled by a sporadic social ineptitude, allow my interpretation. This episode is not "Starlight is too afraid to interact with others so let's have her fall back on brainwashing" because even Starlight says herself the issue was NEVER the other ponies: it was the lessons and whether she'd succeed or not, in other words missing the point of the lesson. That's why the premise is more "here is a character good at one thing, let's have her try other things but fall back on that crutch of the one thing." She has anxiety because it's something new she doesn't understand how to do not because it's a social situation she wants no part in. I mean some resistance comes from the lack of confidence in herself and the literal halting of her development she had in order to create her village. This is a difficult character the show has conceived and as I agree it has not been perfect execution but in terms of a bad character with the viewpoint you describe I personally do not see it.

(Apologies for the long reply)

[Jeric 46,834]

1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

I do find it interesting this notion that Starlight was written with no direction. I will admit there was definitely no broader scheme, like the rest of the Mane 6, there was still some idea of how they wanted to handle her in Season 6 and that was to build her back up again from all the mistakes she made.

1) Have her re-kindle her old friendship that sent her down the path

2) Have learn to make new friends her own way showing she had nothing to fear growing up (this albeit was the most botched and I'll get to that later).

3) With said new friends get to know them better as a friendship is two sided. They are not there just to make you happy and succeed and you are not there just to do things they want. She never saw that other side growing up feeling cutie marks were going to take liberty over friendship so she wasn't going to let her "friends" have what they want in fear of her not living up to those expectations, such as baking or stitching properly, so she did things in order to make sure their friendship would stay constant and done her way, and she needed to get over that self centeredness.

4) Finally, boost her internal confidence back up to where she was as a villain, but this time on the side of good. Show her that she still has the ability to lead, she just needed to understand the two sided perspective of a leader similar to 3.

Now that you have a character confident in herself and no longer unwilling to jump into unfamiliar situations. Time to throw those situations at her and see how she fairs.

The only time she no longer had that confidence in herself was either after feelimg doubt by Twilight and the Princesses or "Uncommon Bond" which in itself is a different story.

Interestingly you described this lack of confidence feeding into social ineptitude which anger and I am left questioning why and when?

Why was she more prone to anger as a villain and why don't we see it again until ABU besides the excuse of "oh she's good now so we can't let anything negative affect her while we try to make her likable and relatable through social ineptitude." Looking back at her time as a villain the only time she would get angry is when she was called out for being wrong or being ignored. Well where in Season 6 was she ever ignored? I think the closest was Spike not following her wishes to not see Sunburst, Twilight not trusting her to make friends and Trixie and Discord arguing constantly both of which cases had a fair amount of her subtle anger and snark to shine through. And then again when was she called out for being in the wrong? Well ELTSD has her in the wrong, however, unlike her time as a villain when being told she was wrong she fully believed she was right vs that episode where she already knew she messed up badly by the time she was called out so would retaliating do? It seems Season 6 just did not give her enough opportunity to feed off her anger but did they really opt for social ineptitude instead? This is where it gets complicated. 

Like I said in the recap half of these socially inept moments are done when she is to face times when she messed upin the past, and there is the natural fear that she may mess up again because after the realization that she's been acting in the wrong most her life, how is she to act now that her confidence drive is gone? Well like a normal member of society obviously, and this is where she was slightly messed with to serve the plot. The most infuriating occurrence is "No Second Prances" which does establish a sort of ineptitude when interacting that lead to a worse fear in others judging her, which could have easily been flipped for the better to make the fear on her, not others, for messing up. It is a problem I do overlook but not one I deny was present. Then this leads into, again ELTSD, which if you believe was fueled by a sporadic social ineptitude, allow my interpretation. This episode is not "Starlight is too afraid to interact with others so let's have her fall back on brainwashing" because even Starlight says herself the issue was NEVER the other ponies: it was the lessons and whether she'd succeed or not, in other words missing the point of the lesson. That's why the premise is more "here is a character good at one thing, let's have her try other things but fall back on that crutch of the one thing." She has anxiety because it's something new she doesn't understand how to do not because it's a social situation she wants no part in. I mean some resistance comes from the lack of confidence in herself and the literal halting of her development she had in order to create her village. This is a difficult character the show has conceived and as I agree it has not been perfect execution but in terms of a bad character with the viewpoint you describe I personally do not see it.

(Apologies for the long reply)

No need to apologize. Recall I like the character quite a bit. I've also used the same points you laid out in my examples on why I like Starlight ... many many times on here. However, I know how to write a character well enough that I can avoid the Janeway problem, meaning a snapshot of the character (or rather a review of that characters presentation in one episode) should bear enough of a resemblance to a prior or future episode that they don't feel too different. When they feel dramatically different, then you have to say, "show me the moment that was the catalyst, and show me hints of the evolution." This is where one of the biggest failures lie when they set up the character and wound up meandering a bit. 

Writing a good character should thread this together organically, even when we aren't shown everything in chronological order. They took shortcuts, so it wasn't until Season 7, two years after her initial appearance, that Starlight clicked for me as we saw those threads start to happen. That leaves me with two possible reasons. Either they had no plan and let the writers do what they wanted with her and limited notes, or the writing itself was subpar. Her motivation for going bad was not hinted at in her initial appearance. That's either bad writing, or it wasn't planned yet. If you aren't sure where you will take a character, there are subtle ways of leaving various doors open that can have multiple interpretations that avoid the sledgehammer of over-exposition, and creating a situation where you have to do mental hurdles to get from point A to point B. I can do those hurdles myself, and you outlined the same conclusions I have come to and agree with, but the more heavy lifting I do to like a character, the more it is apparent the writers failed. 

Whether these missteps are forgivable depend on an individuals personal taste in how tight a character is developing over a period of time. In my case, they are forgivable. In some others' cases, they are not. 

Basically, thinking a character was badly written at times (especially in the beginning with proper hindsight), and having a fondness for the character, are not mutually exclusive. 

[Victoria Sponge 1,014]

She fits my criteria for a good mlp character:

She's adorable

In all seriousness though I really like what they've done with her. I didn't really care for her in season 5 but across seasons 6 and 7 she has quickly become my favourite character in the show. I think it's good that she does stupid things because it's a contrast from the mane 6 who are this force for good who always save the day and learn these huge morals but Starlight messes up constantly and does questionable things because of her past. She's cute, smart but also flawed and has lots of room for improvement. That's why I like her and I don't feel like she's been handled badly at all, though I do acknowledge that she was not handled perfectly, but that's a lot of pressure to put on the writers.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Battenberg

[Thrond 3,257]

8 hours ago, MAIKUN said:

Come on guys, she's still FREAKING evil....right?

Depends on your definition of "evil," but I think the answer is more or less "no," however you slice it. The show wants us to like her. 

[KH7672 1,604]

4 hours ago, Jeric said:

Her motivation for going bad was not hinted at in her initial appearance. That's either bad writing, or it wasn't planned yet. If you aren't sure where you will take a character, there are subtle ways of leaving various doors open that can have multiple interpretations that avoid the sledgehammer of over-exposition, and creating a situation where you have to do mental hurdles to get from point A to point B. I can do those hurdles myself, and you outlined the same conclusions I have come to and agree with, but the more heavy lifting I do to like a character, the more it is apparent the writers failed. 

I actually will challenge you on that notion. That her motivation and such was either subpar or poor writing and required many mental hurdles to wrap one's head around to understand. I'm going to take three lines from "The Cutie Map" and see if there is some clear connection to her motivation for this philosophy.

"We're happy to have anypony who wants to experience true friendship for the first time."

"...Different talents lead to different opinions, which lead to bitterness and misery. So... why aren't you bitter and...?"

"You'd all still be living your miserable lives thinking you're better than everypony else if it weren't for mymagical abilities! I brought you friendship! I brought you equality! I created harmony!"

It seems a lot of people were quick to jump on her motivation being something traumatic with her own cutie mark or lack there of (i.e. bullying and several other possiblities people have clamored for instead of what we got) but what we got was not a sole hatred of cutie marks but a hatred of cutie marks because they destroy friendship, like Sunburst's did with hers. It was never just about the cutie marks it was about friendship. It's all throughout her philosophy to create the ideal friendship scenario where no pony would feel superior in their life and leave said friendship. Sugar Belle focused on their friendship when she led into that line not their cutie marks. If it was the other way around it would make more sense for her to intrude with the inquiry if they are unhappy with they're cutie marks because it causes arguments. Instead she is more curious of their friendship ending because of "different opinions." This even translates to her revenge plan in the finale. It was never about Twilight and her friend's cutie marks, it was about that extra-ordinary friendship bond they all have and that's what she's trying to destroy. It's still more about friendships than cutie marks so to say her motivation was never there, I again do not see it.

And funny thing about the idea of "over-exposition" because for most they weren't given enough exposition to fully grasp her backstory, this feeling of cheap sympathy. For me, though, there was no sympathy in that backstory, there was no justification for her actions, it was just an explanation of why. I mean where in the episode did Twilight show sympathy? Where did she or the show for that matter express remorse and pity for her backstory. She didn't sympathize with Starlight, she empathized with her. She understood where she came from and put herself in that place. Twilight stopped talking about how Starlight's course of action is affecting Twilight's future and instead talked about how if she were Starlight, she would find ways to improve her own future. A future where she can guarentee some happiness that is not built up from lies and deceit. It may have been kind of a tricky hurdle but even then it's still not the greatest challenge to overcome, with just a closer look at the dialogue choice, the pieces were there (besides her talent in magic and yeah that is really bothersome) but like I have agreed execution was not the best.

[Adamgreen 1,129]

For a villain, she's great (aside from the weak backstory).

As her in season 6, she kinda ticks me off. One, her reliability was used in a way that makes her actions seems 'questionable'. Purposely or not, her redemption didn't satisfy me to love her character.

Season 7 however, gives Starlight's reliability in the limelight. Having to understand her actions better internally and externally.

Overall, she's alright in my book. Just don't make her seem out of place.   

[Brainstorm 4,092]

Starlight has come a long way.

[Jeric 46,834]

6 hours ago, KH7672 said:

I actually will challenge you on that notion. That her motivation and such was either subpar or poor writing and required many mental hurdles to wrap one's head around to understand. I'm going to take three lines from "The Cutie Map" and see if there is some clear connection to her motivation for this philosophy.

"We're happy to have anypony who wants to experience true friendship for the first time."

"...Different talents lead to different opinions, which lead to bitterness and misery. So... why aren't you bitter and...?"

"You'd all still be living your miserable lives thinking you're better than everypony else if it weren't for mymagical abilities! I brought you friendship! I brought you equality! I created harmony!"

Those dialog snippets are missing something that I spoke about earlier. A reference to 'why' she feels that way. A better writer with better planning would have intimated something that ties back to Sunburst without, as I said before, having to do mental gymnastics. It's so simple a fix that it is glaring. One line about being betrayed. Boom! Good character that sets up possible redemption. It would have been even beneficial to have her hint that she knows a bit more about magic from self study over the years. 

[Will Guide 21,325]

27 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Those dialog snippets are missing something that I spoke about earlier. A reference to 'why' she feels that way. A better writer with better planning would have intimated something that ties back to Sunburst without, as I said before, having to do mental gymnastics. It's so simple a fix that it is glaring. One line about being betrayed. Boom! Good character that sets up possible redemption. It would have been even beneficial to have her hint that she knows a bit more about magic from self study over the years. 

Wait, are you saying that in S5 premiere, if Starlight has hinted she has felt betrayed, the "weak" backstory revealed in S5 Finale would have come off stronger?

[Hierok 11,829]

On 24-1-2018 at 10:25 PM, Kyoshi said:

Starlight isn't a bad character, it is her execution that is ruining her. The way they make other characters into morons to make her look better. How they made her extremely overpowered with no proper reasoning. Her many abuses of magic with only a slap on the hoof as a result. There are things I like about Starlight, she has had some good episodes. Then things like part 2 of the season 7 finale come along and make me question what the writers are thinking. They need to stop with the whole 'pulling spells out of her ass' thing and focus more towards her positive social aspects, as her chemistry with other characters is quite good. Give us more of that.

This is also, and actually only thing about Starlight. The fact is she is too overpowered and so they must turn other characters into as you call it, morons in order to come up with a good arc.

[Jeric 46,834]

2 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

Wait, are you saying that in S5 premiere, if Starlight has hinted she has felt betrayed, the "weak" backstory revealed in S5 Finale would have come off stronger?

For me, yes. It's hard to assume what would work on others. I mean, think back to that moment when Starlight was at the mouth of the cave before she ran off. Great opportunity for that dialog. Even a line like, "All this talk about individuality. You don't get it! Cutie Marks don't make friendships stronger, THEY DESTROY THEM!"

 

[Will Guide 21,325]

2 minutes ago, Jeric said:

For me, yes. It's hard to assume what would work on others. I mean, think back to that moment when Starlight was at the mouth of the cave before she ran off. Great opportunity for that dialog. Even a line like, "All this talk about individuality. You don't get it! Cutie Marks don't make friendships stronger, THEY DESTROY THEM!"

 

Yeah, that make sense.

One of Apple Bloom's nightmares had the other two Crusaders get their Cutie Marks first and led to them abandoning her. But remember that once the CMC got their marks, their friendship remained as shown in several episodes after. MAIKUN can keep going on about CMC disbanding, but it's not going to happen. They're proof against Starlight's view of "Cutie Marks destroy friendships"

[Pandadug 8]

Here’s my take: I don’t like her. She bested Twilight and I think she was created in the brainwashing episode just to be an evil counterpart to her. I don’t like the idea that another unicorn is equal in powers to her. It was the depth of her evil personality that makes it hard to like a “good” side of her now. It’s like if someone is really bad to you and then expects things to go back to the way they were. There’s always that memory. She seems to be all over the place emotion-wise, as if the writers don’t quite know where to place her. I wouldn’t mind her being there if she was just a minor character and not comparable power or personality-wise to Twilight. It seems that she’s really trying to fit in; I actually feel sorry for her sometimes. I guess “tainted” and “awkward” are the best words to describe her. One of my favorite sayings is that innocence is easily lost and can never be gotten back. I think Starlight fits that saying.

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

5 hours ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

They're proof against Starlight's view of "Cutie Marks destroy friendships"

Three friends getting the exact same cutie mark at the exact same time is proof against her views? How is this never before seen occurrence proof against something that Starlight actually experienced? And that others have also experienced?

Remember Twist? She gets her cutie mark, and Applebloom goes and gets two new friends and stops hanging out with her. 

Starlight wasn’t wrong, cutie marks do cause a lot of problems for ponies, especially when they’re young. Her solution though, in typical Starlight fashion, went way too far. 

[Lucartini 104]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:20 AM, MAIKUN said:

Hell yes she is still EVIL no matter what....right? Look at her, she is Twilight's doppelganger or Other Half like that Kingdom Hearts II game....you know?

Starlight Glimmer is Twilight's... Nobody?

Headcannon accepted! When Twilight became an Alicorn she died for a few seconds and that created her Nobody, somepony hollow with all of her strength and more but none of her inherent goodness!

So that's why she's more evil than Xemnas!

[MAIKUN 262]

2 hours ago, Lucartini said:

Starlight Glimmer is Twilight's... Nobody?

Headcannon accepted! When Twilight became an Alicorn she died for a few seconds and that created her Nobody, somepony hollow with all of her strength and more but none of her inherent goodness!

So that's why she's more evil than Xemnas!

Well actually @Lucartini It’s Other Half not Nobody....

[gaspingsirens 27]

in my opinion, i dont think shes that bad of a character. though she did come into the series in quite the fireball, she did bring along her spunky and impulsive personality which added to the show, which i feel is starting to fade a little. though her character backstory and structure isnt that of a strong one, i think her quirks and personality are relatable between the audience and starlight. since shes still a relatively new character, im sure her character will be developing with the seasons, so thats something to look forward to!

[KatonRyu 1,026]

I really don't think she's a bad character. She was one of the best villains the show has had, and ever since Season 6 she's really become one of my favorite characters. My one problem is that her original turn to evil was incredibly stupid. Sure, I get the overreaction when she was a filly but carrying that idiocy into adulthood, eh. I really don't mind her prodigious skill with magic, either. All in all, I quite like her.

[Nightfall Gloam 18,236]

I don't think Starlight is that bad of a character at all.

I think Starlight Glimmer was a unique antagonist, especially considering the normal formula for antagonists on this show (most are ones that either have some army like Chrysalis did, can bend reality like Discord or take all the magic of Equestria away like Tirek, though for Starlight, it was more of an ideological thing and being the leader of a cult).

I'll admit it took some adjusting for me to like her after she reformed, but she did also grow on me quickly and I consider her a great addition to the Mane Sx!

[Midnight Blaze 98 1,138]

I don’t think she’s a bad character. Sure, she’s done some questionable things, but so have Discord, Luna, Sunset Shimmer, and many others. She’s learned some valuable lessons after being reformed, but that’s just part of life. Nobody’s perfect, so I don’t think that it would have been right for her to go from pretty much dooming Equestria to being a Celestia style protagonist who never puts a foot wrong. 

And she has of course saved Equestria a couple of times. 

She’s not my favourite character, and I wouldn’t want her to become another element of harmony but overall, she’s cute and I like her.  

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,151]

Nix the name-calling please. Had to hide a post as a result.

Thank you.