movies/tv Black Panther and the Media praising it as "the most progressive movie ever"

[Jeric 46,834]

10 hours ago, takai said:

I enjoyed Black Panther as a character in Civil War. He had a great character arc. However, ever since the announcement of the movie, the hype around it has been entirely cancerous. Those who have rallied around it have been so cocky that it's actually made me very disinterested in seeing the movie.

But now I see reviews calling it "Shakespearean". It's a Marvel movie, it isn't Citizen Cane or Casablanca. This is evidence that the media is putting this on a pedestal simply because it's a majority black cast. I'm sure it'll be a decent film, but I can't see it being more visually stunning as Doctor Strange, funnier than Thor Ragnarok or Guardians, or as well written as Winter Soldier. But calling it a "masterpiece" or "Shakespearean" is nothing more than a joke.

But can we address the fact that Wakanda is made up of nothing but conservatives? And that the biggest fans of Black Panther have a high probability of hating conservatism and those who hold conservative values? Can someone say irony? I mean, "Wakanda Forever" is literally "America First".

When I hear Shakespearean used, I usually think of themes, not quality. The film definately invokes some of the tragic themes often seen in his plays. 

It definitely isn't as funny as any of the other films. In fact the humor is seriously dialed down to the point it almost feels like a DC film tonally. The comedy is there, but it is certainly not used anywhere near as much as any of the other Marvel films. It does tackle some deeper themes that films like Winter Soldier did, but it isn't as good as that film in general. Parts of it certainly were, but I have a soft spot for Winter Soldier. 

You are right that the themes of nationalism are strong in this film, and to the film's credit it actually does both sides of the argument justice. Where I disagree is the analogy of Wakanda and the US that you presented. The history of the fictional nation and its past sins provides enough nuance that it breaks that cultural analogy. Enough that it sidesteps the issue of being hypocritical if you side with Wakandan conservativism and not the nationalism of the United States. Unfortunately, I wonder how much of the audience will even draw such distinctions. 

[Denim&Venöm 16,459]

It was an okay film. Good action, great affects, the costumes look great. The acting is solid.

But it's no master piece. 

Spoiler

It's not so much Black Panther the movie as it is King Tuchala the movie. We don't see enough of the titular hero in action. There's also that awkward gap when he's defeated and then absent for 20 minutes, made even mroe awkward when he is suddenly found. Usually, this is where the hero finds the strength to climb back up from rock bottom. But nope. He's found from out of nowhere and given back his powers. 

Ulysses Claw gets the Captain Phasma treatment in that he gets cameo'd in two films and then killed off.  The CIA dude was just an Agent Coleson stand in, except with more comedic relief involved.

If anything was weak in this film, it was the main antagonist in Kill Monger. Maybe it was intentional, but he just felt out of place in this movie. The urban youth taking control of an African nation. And his arc felt kinda wonky. He goes from henchman, to tragic figure, to main bad guy in a jarring pace. Felt like a bait and switch between him and Claw. Not to mention that he gets two dimensional rather fast, going from evil minion, to ousted royalty, to undeserving king, to bloodthirsty despot bent on world domination in the span of an hour. That and we don't really see him take the mantel of Black Panther for himself. We see him go through the ritual with the erb, but we don't see him don the costume or display it's powers till the last 20 minutes. 

 

So while it's by no means a bad film and I do recommend you watch to garner your own opinion, it is far from perfect and even farther from the epiphany the news is making it out to be. 

As far as where it personally ranks for me in the MCU, I'd place it:

1. The Avengers 
2. Captain America: The Winter Soldier 
3. Captain America: Civil War 
4. Iron Man
5. Thor: Ragnarok 
6. Iron Man 2 
7. Guardians of the Galaxy
8. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 
9. Captain America: The First Avenger 
10. The Incredible Hulk 
11. Doctor Strange
12. Ant-Man 
13. Black Panther          <---- Here
14. Thor 
15. Thor: The Dark World 
16. Avengers: Age of Ultron 

 

But hey, at least it was better than The Last Jedi. 

[Prospekt 10,984]

So, I finally did see the movie.

It's good. Not a Marvel masterpiece, though it's fun. I very much have the same gripes as @Denim&Venom above.

Spoiler

Not enough Black Panther. Too much plain T'Challa. While he's a solid character without the suit, I don't think he's all that believable... when he loses his second challenge for the throne of Wakanda, he really shouldn't survive that tumble down a ginormous waterfall. He doesn't have the suit nor the magical panther strength during the fight... yet somehow he lives.  Sure, he is nearly killed, but even without the help of Vibranium, he somehow doesn't drown as his comatose body floats down the river.

And honestly? The movie really isn't very preachy. It's really only "progressive" because of its cast, its setting, and bits of Killmonger's character.

Spoiler

And concerning the latter, I'm happy that the movie doesn't veer in the direction of promoting genocide. Killmonger wants to send deadly Vibranium weaponry across the globe in order to allow the "oppressed" to kill their historic "oppressors," but T'Challa would rather resort to a peaceful, non-interventionist foreign policy as king of Wakanda.

Spoiler

Though the ending kind of changes that, when we learn that T'Challa is opening a Wakandan outreach center on the property we saw at the very beginning of the movie.

Plus, there's the bit in the credits where T'Challa comes before the United Nations to reveal the true nature of his country.

 

All in all... I'll give it a 7.5/10. Not spectacular, but worth watching nonetheless. It's not as amazing as the mainstream media claims it is. And it's not actually all that revolutionary. But it's not terrible. It does have me hyped for how the Black Panther will fit into the coming Avengers film, Infinity War. And I'll watch the inevitable sequel.

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

Don't wanna get this too off-topic. But it's sometimes amazing, what kinda people call you racist and part of the alt-right, just by giving your opinion on something.

Spoiler

Ladies and gentleman, the founder of BABSCon, Sonya Hipper.

 

[Will Guide 21,325]

26 minutes ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

Don't wanna get this too off-topic. But it's sometimes amazing, what kinda people call you racist and part of the alt-right, just by giving your opinion on something.

  Hide contents

Ladies and gentleman, the founder of BABSCon, Sonya Hipper.

 

Seriously, 

The offending person wasn't complaining about the film being racist, but 

Spoiler

Greatly Insulted a person who gave the film a good rating, just because the "good rater" was "an afront to the Princess of Friendship", who is the good rater's avatar?

Seriously, the only racist I see is obvious hypocrite. 

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

Just now, WiiGuy2014 said:

Seriously, 

The offending person wasn't complaining about the film being racist, but 

  Hide contents

Greatly Insulted a person who gave the film a good rating, just because the "good rater" was "an afront to the Princess of Friendship", who is the good rater's avatar?

Seriously, the only racist I see is obvious hypocrite. 

BTW, the guy with the twily avatar is me.

[Will Guide 21,325]

Just now, Mesmelicious Rize said:

BTW, the guy with the twily avatar is me.

I never saw any Marvel films, so I wouldn't be able judge the film fairly. Still giving the film a "good, but not special" rating should be seen as fair, so I respectfully accept your rating and would never call you what they called you.

[Here No Longer 5,270]

39 minutes ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

Don't wanna get this too off-topic. But it's sometimes amazing, what kinda people call you racist and part of the alt-right, just by giving your opinion on something.

  Reveal hidden contents

Ladies and gentleman, the founder of BABSCon, Sonya Hipper.

 

If you're not racist, then how come the cast being filled with black people seems to be so important to you based on the comment?

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

Just now, ~Dusky~ said:

If you're not racist, then how come the cast being filled with black people seems to be so important to you based on the comment?

I never said any of that. I couldn't care less about somebodys skin color, as long as somebody dosen't call me racist for simple opinions.

[Jeric 46,834]

5 minutes ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

Ladies and gentleman, the founder of BABSCon, Sonya Hipper.

 

I wouldn't be so dismissive here. Minus the initial sentence and closing she has a point. Let's take a closer look at that by eliminating the more aggressive elements of the paragraph and rewriting it to illustrate that point better. 

 

"I feel that it may be intellectually dishonest, or at the least a mischaracterization of comic book fans, to suggest that 90% of the general marvel fans don't care about the politics of a character who has always been political from the start, and only has become more so over the decades. Comics have never been apolitical. The Uncanny X-Men is an allegory for racism, fear, and bigotry. Green Arrow and Green Lantern had a comic series in which each one was presented as a PoV on each side of the ideological spectrum. Comics, specifically the superhero genre, started as a propaganda piece. The Ayatollah Khomeini hired the Joker prompting Batman to get involved which lead to Ronald Reagan to appoint Superman as a member of the CIA to stop Batman from destabilizing relations.  Batman has been a platform for many discussions over capital punishment. Comics like V for Vendetta, Killing Joke, Watchmen, have central political themes. Some of those books are usually featured as the best the medium has to offer. Hell, Hilary Clinton eulogized Superman. I would suspect that some people squealing to keep "politics" out of comic book stories are unfamiliar with the history of the medium, and it's most beloved offerings.

 

There, she had a phenomenal point in there, just needed to coax it out. I met Sonya. Politics aside, she came across as kind and genuine. She was nice to my family, so there is some bias. I also want to point this out regarding the individual you screencapped.  

 

Well ... still a little aggressive, but less so and there she has an even better point. I am also not sure why someone would feel that the general audience and critics would think that this film would bring about peace. That was just ridiculous. 

 

8 minutes ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

BTW, the guy with the twily avatar is me.

I figured. You might want to put more effort into debating these points.

 

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

1 minute ago, Jeric said:

I wouldn't be so dismissive here. Minus the initial sentence and closing she has a point. Let's take a closer look at that by eliminating the more aggressive elements of the paragraph and rewriting it to illustrate that point better. 

 

"I feel that it may be intellectually dishonest, or at the least a mischaracterization of comic book fans, to suggest that 90% of the general marvel fans don't care about the politics of a character who has always been political from the start, and only has become more so over the decades. Comics have never been apolitical. The Uncanny X-Men is an allegory for racism, fear, and bigotry. Green Arrow and Green Lantern had a comic series in which each one was presented as a PoV on each side of the ideological spectrum. Comics, specifically the superhero genre, started as a propaganda piece. The Ayatollah Khomeini hired the Joker prompting Batman to get involved which lead to Ronald Reagan to appoint Superman as a member of the CIA to stop Batman from destabilizing relations.  Batman has been a platform for many discussions over capital punishment. Comics like V for Vendetta, Killing Joke, Watchmen, have central political themes. Some of those books are usually featured as the best the medium has to offer. Hell, Hilary Clinton eulogized Superman. I would suspect that some people squealing to keep "politics" out of comic book stories are unfamiliar with the history of the medium, and it's most beloved offerings.

 

There, she had a phenomenal point in there, just needed to coax it out. I met Sonya. Politics aside, she came across as kind and genuine. She was nice to my family, so there is some bias. I also want to point this out regarding the individual you screencapped.  

 

Well ... still a little aggressive, but less so and there she has an even better point. I am also not sure why someone would feel that the general audience and critics would think that this film would bring about peace. That was just ridiculous. 

 

Yeah sure, maybe she could've been more respectful towards me. But that is the point here, she wasn't. If she dosen't show respect towards me, why should i do the same here?

She called me an idiot and a racist, without even knowing me and you just don't do stuff like that.

First impressions are important and she ruined hers.

[Here No Longer 5,270]

3 minutes ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

I never said any of that. I couldn't care less about somebodys skin color, as long as somebody dosen't call me racist for simple opinions.

Really? You didn't?

Then why the point to talk about how it's basically the lion king "filled with black people"? Why did that have to be a part of the comment?

[Jeric 46,834]

On 2/16/2018 at 8:23 PM, Jeric said:

Jesus Christ on a cross! Has anyone covering this film ever picked up a book written by anyone in Africa? Chinua Achebe wrote a famous one called Things Fall Apart. Black Panther the movie feels like some of those themes mixed with it's heavier comic themes. Progressive? You damn dirty illiterate uncultured bastards ... you write for a living ... did you not have to take a lit class or two in journalism school? 

Also quoting myself because I again heard comments about similarities to Lion King. Guess this applies to critics and the audience, though I give the audience a bit of a pass since I wouldn't expect them to read literary fiction from Africa. 

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

Just now, ~Dusky~ said:

Really? You didn't?

Then why the point to talk about how it's basically the lion king "filled with black people"? Why did that have to be a part of the comment?

Yeah i did say it, but it dosen't make me a racist. That was just a comedic comment, nothing more. I also just said with black people not filled.

You look a bit too much into this.

[Here No Longer 5,270]

7 hours ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

Yeah i did say it, but it dosen't make me a racist. 

You look a bit too much into this.

Not necessarily, no. But it does sort of make you seem at least just a little racist that you had to go out of your way to talk about it. 

Perhaps, but it's still worth mentioning.

Edited February 19, 2018 by ~Dusky~

[Jeric 46,834]

7 minutes ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

Yeah sure, maybe she could've been more respectful towards me. But that is the point here, she wasn't. If she dosen't show respect towards me, why should i do the same here?

 

I thought the point of your post was to debate the substance of the commentary, not to sooth egos. You have this tendency to highlight things like this without taking a step back and looking at the entire landscape. Sonya doesn't have the luxury of years of interaction with you like I do, and the ability to make a more informed assessment of your motivations. Her error, but like I said, she has a great point in there, and one that I made specifically more spotlighted which was on-topic and has yet to be countered or further discussed.

[Mesme Rize 15,681]

Just now, Jeric said:

I thought the point of your post was to debate the substance of the commentary, not to sooth egos. You have this tendency to highlight things like this without taking a step back and looking at the entire landscape. Sonya doesn't have the luxury of years of interaction with you like I do, and the ability to make a more informed assessment of your motivations. Her error, but like I said, she has a great point in there, and one that I made specifically more spotlighted. 

Yeah maybe and i am sorry that she dosen't. But calling me an idiot and a racist is a very odd basis to get into a debate, without even starting one. If she wants to debate me about this stuff, she can do so in a kind manner and not go "You're an idiot and a racist, F' You." I am just wasting my time with that.

Don't take it personal Jeric, but i am sadly not as easily forgiving. I just have too much pride for that kinda stuff.

[Guest]

The act of considering it progressive specifically because it's an all-black cast is assuming the status quo would intend another direction for it. By someone's definition, that's racist in itself. Nobody who is a fan of the MCU demanded to see a checkerboard cast in Wakanda. That would just be silly. Regardless of the intentions, it's a perfect lose-lose scenario for a director who simply wanted to meet the source's continuity because a huge number of people were only going to see the races of the cast and fret over it in one direction or another. I did not enjoy the movie because of any racial or political aversion, I enjoyed the movie because it was good. 

[Jeric 46,834]

54 minutes ago, Mesmelicious Rize said:

Yeah maybe and i am sorry that she dosen't. But calling me an idiot and a racist is a very odd basis to get into a debate, without even starting one. If she wants to debate me about this stuff, she can do so in a kind manner and not go "You're an idiot and a racist, F' You." I am just wasting my time with that.

Don't take it personal Jeric, but i am sadly not as easily forgiving. I just have too much pride for that kinda stuff.

I don't care about any of that. You brought your opinion on the film from an off-site source and I'm challenging that opinion, tonally different than what you saw on YouTube, but contextually the same points. You created a thread here to discuss the reactions to Black Panther, and I'm trying to debate you on the substance of your opinion, not whether or not some commenter on YouTube is right or wrong to call you racist. I'm not interested in this becoming another boilerplate discussion about people getting annoyed with SJW stuff (we get enough of that nonsense in this area of the forum and it's an old hat debate that is rather interesting to me due to it's absurdly predictable nature). All I care about is whether or not you are willing to put forth the effort to debate your views that 

1. People actually think the film will bring world peace, and where you came to that conclusion. 

2. Comics (and by extension their off-shoot media) is preferred by 90% Marvel Fans to be apolitical considering their decades long history in being at the forefront of social and political commentary. 

Both points are rather curious and have significant flaws. Let me know when you are up for actually supporting your assertions on those two. 

 

[Denim&Venöm 16,459]

I can't believe this much back and forth discussion was started in the comments of a watchmojo video of all things. 

[Will Guide 21,325]

3 minutes ago, Denim&Venom said:

I can't believe this much back and forth discussion was started in the comments of a watchmojo video of all things. 

Wait, which video was that comment that started this back-and-forth "discussion"?  

[Denim&Venöm 16,459]

Just now, WiiGuy2014 said:

Wait, which video was that comment that started this back-and-forth "discussion"?  

I'll be laying down my own reply to both sides of this argument in a minute or two. 

[Will Guide 21,325]

Just now, Denim&Venom said:

I'll be laying down my own reply to both sides of this argument in a minute or two. 

Thanks for the source, but I won't be joining the discussion.

[Angle Alastor 3,805]

alll i think is.....why ?...just why...its just a superhero movie you dont think about anything else just have fun watching the movie XD

[Here No Longer 5,270]

3 minutes ago, Steam Control said:

alll i think is.....why ?...just why...its just a superhero movie you dont think about anything else just have fun watching the movie XD

Apparently most people arguing both sides of this don't think that way, even if they say that they do... 

Edited February 19, 2018 by ~Dusky~