Fame and Misfortune has a bad moral.

[Azureth 686]

 

A bit long but sums up how I feel. Accepting one for their flaws is one thing, but if they keep making the same mistakes and never try to improve it another.

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

2 hours ago, Azureth said:

Accepting one for their flaws is one thing, but if they keep making the same mistakes and never try to improve it another.

One of the lines of the song is "We're not flawless, we're work in progress!". That doesn't sound like the words of ponies who don't want to improve themselves, the Mane Six have always been open to self-improvement, that's a huge part of the show considering basically every single episode is them learning a new lesson, and we've seen how they've developed over the course of the show. The episode might have it's flaws, but at no point did I ever feel like it was going against the idea of Self improvement. Improving yourself and trying to grow as a person is a good thing, but no matter how much you grow you will always be flawed, and if you can't accept that, you might end up always hating yourself, no matter how much progress you make.

Edited March 9, 2018 by BasementSparkle

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

Try to put that moral in the context, do mane 6 try to use it as an excuse for their laziness to change? Would it any different if Trixie is the one who sing that song?

Their morals might apply to them but the others might take it the wrong way. 

Random: For example, i consider 'be yourself' kind of moral is very dangerous moral if the person who said it is a murderer who dont want to be what the society force him to be.

 

[Steve Piranha 28,778]

25 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

Try to put that moral in the context, do mane 6 try to use it as an excuse for their laziness to change? 

Oh, I dealt with that bullshit enough times that the Mane6 aren't such cases

 

[Here No Longer 5,270]

34 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

Try to put that moral in the context, do mane 6 try to use it as an excuse for their laziness to change? Would it any different if Trixie is the one who sing that song?

I don't think the context makes much of a difference personally... 

 

I don't really see the problem with the moral of the story. "Be your own person" isn't really a bad moral and in fact is a pretty applicable moral to modern society, considering how little people actually seem to think for themselves these days. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Barique

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

2 hours ago, BasementSparkle said:

One of the lines of the song is "We're not flawless, we're work in progress!". That doesn't sound like the words of ponies who don't want to improve themselves,

If they show evidence of improving, that would work. But the episode and song itself put forth no effort to show such evidence, not even when Fluttershy scolded her stalkers. "We're a work in progress" is a claim of improvement, not evidence. It's up to the episode to show the audience how much they improved, which they failed to do. Show, don't tell.

1 hour ago, Barique said:

I don't think the context makes much of a difference personally... 

Context is always key, especially in storytelling. "Be yourself" works for a movie like Aladdin, because he pretended to be someone he's not. He lied to Genie, Abu, Jasmine, Agrabah, and himself.

But the big difference between Aladdin and Fame is in Aladdin, Jasmine admires and loves him in spite of the lifelong battles he faced. Liking someone in spite of your flaws is a very admirable message. But F&M is saying that they're great because of their flaws, and their flaws are exactly what make them them. They have personality flaws that can be improved, but the song preaches the opposite.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Dark Qiviut

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

Actually didn't pay much attention to the moral.

 

Probably because I was too busy plotting revenge on all those unnecessarily @$$hole townsponies for making the episode almost unwatchable.

[Kadeda 178]

I love the episode. Because it made fun of the fans... and everytime I see criticism of it I think... "They got you huh?"

[Libra 11,690]

Ithink the moral is more or less a personal message.

"were not flawless" i belive is the company telling the fans to stop expecting absolute perfection from every episode. Not everythjing is going to be polished. The flaws show that they (and in some cases, we) need to relook at ourselves and ask "qre what we expecting of others reasonable?"

personally, in my honest opinion, is hasbro pretty much telling the fandom "were not perfect, its a problem, but were human, we make mistakes." 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Hm, so it seems you, like Mr Enter completely missed the point of the episodes, it is honestly baffling to me how people could honestly get the moral wrong in this episode 

"We're not flawless, we're a work in progress, we got dents and we got quirks, but it's our flaws that make us work." That isn't saying never try to learn from your mistakes, it means don't let your mistakes consume you, embrace that as an individual, you are flawed and will always be flawed, but you shouldn't strive to be perfect, but strive to be your best self.  That is the moral of Fame and Misfortune, that is the point of the episode and I can't believe someone like Mr Enter would be so stupid to not understand that point.

 

[SummerHaven 49]

I thought the moral was to not let’s others opinions of you chance who you are? 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

1 hour ago, Dark Qiviut said:

If they show evidence of improving, that would work. But the episode and song itself put forth no effort to show such evidence, not even when Fluttershy scolded her stalkers. "We're a work in progress" is a claim of improvement, not evidence. It's up to the episode to show the audience how much they improved, which they failed to do. Show, don't tell.

Context is always key, especially in storytelling. "Be yourself" works for a movie like Aladdin, because he pretended to be someone he's not. He lied to Genie, Abu, Jasmine, Agrabah, and himself.

But the big difference between Aladdin and Fame is in Aladdin, Jasmine admires and loves him in spite of the lifelong battles he faced. Liking someone in spite of your flaws is a very admirable message. But F&M is saying that they're great because of their flaws, and their flaws are exactly what make them them. They have personality flaws that can be improved, but the song preaches the opposite.

Except it did show that they have improved, Fluttershy was more assertive, Twilight didn't freak out and tried handling the situation carefully, but the others in the episode weren't really scolded often, either adored or just outright hated, and eventually began arguing with each other instead of being upset with the mane 6. So they sung a song to tell them that they are not perfect and can never be perfect, but flaws make us who we are, that doesn't mean you can't be better, it just means you can't be perfect.

Just now, SummerHaven said:

I thought the moral was to not let’s others opinions of you chance who you are? 

Yes it was but Enter is what we call an "analyst" which in the brony community just means nitpick and complain about whatever you want to.
 

Even if it means you miss the whole point of the episode.
 

4 hours ago, BasementSparkle said:

One of the lines of the song is "We're not flawless, we're work in progress!". That doesn't sound like the words of ponies who don't want to improve themselves, the Mane Six have always been open to self-improvement, that's a huge part of the show considering basically every single episode is them learning a new lesson, and we've seen how they've developed over the course of the show. The episode might have it's flaws, but at no point did I ever feel like it was going against the idea of Self improvement. Improving yourself and trying to grow as a person is a good thing, but no matter how much you grow you will always be flawed, and if you can't accept that, you might end up always hating yourself, no matter how much progress you make.

/thread
Video debunked good job basement.

[Here No Longer 5,270]

1 hour ago, Dark Qiviut said:

If they show evidence of improving, that would work. But the episode and song itself put forth no effort to show such evidence, not even when Fluttershy scolded her stalkers. "We're a work in progress" is a claim of improvement, not evidence. It's up to the episode to show the audience how much they improved, which they failed to do. Show, don't tell.

Context is always key, especially in storytelling. "Be yourself" works for a movie like Aladdin, because he pretended to be someone he's not. He lied to Genie, Abu, Jasmine, Agrabah, and himself.

But the big difference between Aladdin and Fame is in Aladdin, Jasmine admires and loves him in spite of the lifelong battles he faced. Liking someone in spite of your flaws is a very admirable message. But F&M is saying that they're great because of their flaws, and their flaws are exactly what make them them. They have personality flaws that can be improved, but the song preaches the opposite.

There actually was plenty opf evidence to show that they HAD improved. Even then, this whole paragraph makes it seem like you totally missed the point of the moral.

How does it not work here? All of the rabid townsfolk weren't being themselves, they were just being complete monmstrosities that were obsessed with certain members of the Mane Six and absolutely hated others.

I have a feeling you didn't actually listen to the song. That was literally the song's entire message.

[Denim&Venöm 16,507]

I thought the moral was that it doesn't matter what the critics think, as long as you make a difference in someone's life.

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

1 hour ago, A.V. said:

Actually didn't pay much attention to the moral.

When I first watched this song, I panned it because it was basically an excuse to cover up their writing issues over the years. Characters being flawed has been a very common excuse in this fandom for bad writing. MrE's review of this episode and explaining why the moral is outright harmful in its own merits really made me think.

1 hour ago, Kadeda said:

I love the episode. Because it made fun of the fans... and everytime I see criticism of it I think... "They got you huh?"

I already wrote a status about this, and I'll repeat it here: If you're going to attack your critics, you must know what you're doing, or those critics are going to pick it apart piece by piece or rightfully call you out for having a bloated ego. F&M's ego's so big it doesn't understand its basic continuity.

52 minutes ago, SummerHaven said:

I thought the moral was to not let’s others opinions of you chance who you are? 

That was the primary moral spoken at the end to conclude the episode, but the context of the episode implicates to not be affect by the criticism. One major problem: None of the RM6 were criticized. They were directly abused, three of whom have their lives directly impacted by these bullies. But the RM6 treat it as no big deal and don't worry about the consequences of Rarity's business being flushed down the toilet, FS's stalkers, and AJ's trespassers. The context makes the moral very dangerous.

52 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Except it did show that they have improved

It doesn't. If F&M is supposed to prove how far they've come, they must show it thoroughly, from where they started to where they are now. Like almost all episodes previously, F&M behaves as a standalone; if this is a viewer's first foray into FIM, they have to rely on claims — and claims alone — by ponies like FS and the song, and the episode has to hope the audience believes them. The audience shouldn't have to research online or watch previous episodes to understand what's going on and believe what they're saying.

44 minutes ago, Barique said:

I have a feeling you didn't actually listen to the song.

Wrong. I did. When I first listened to it, I considered it the worst song of the season. Now, I call it the worst song of the series.

54 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

"We're not flawless, we're a work in progress, we got dents and we got quirks, but it's our flaws that make us work."

This part hurts your point. It's saying their flaws are what bond them, keep them bonded, and make themselves function.

The lyrics below only prove Mr. Enter right.

Quote

Twilight: "Our flaws helped to make us special." "Our flaws are what brought us together."

RM6: "'Cause I still like what's flawed about you."

Those three lines affirm what's so fucked up about F&M's secondary moral, and the last bit was repeated several times, including to end it. The entire song, especially the RM6's bit in the chorus, uses their flaws to celebrate what makes them them. Personality flaws that CAN be changed should be encouraged; after all, self-improvement's one of FIM's core themes. The song doesn't suggest to improve, but to acknowledge it and say you should be happy with them. "Work in Progress" spits on that message of self-improvement.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Dark Qiviut

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

3 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

When I first watched this song, I panned it because it was basically an excuse to cover up their writing issues over the years. Characters being flawed has been a very common excuse in this fandom for bad writing. MrE's review of this episode and explaining why the moral is outright harmful in its own merits really made me think.

I already wrote a status about this, and I'll repeat it here: If you're going to attack your critics, you must know what you're doing, or those critics are going to pick it apart piece by piece or rightfully call you out for having a bloated ego. F&M's ego's so big it doesn't understand its basic continuity.

That was the primary moral spoken at the end to conclude the episode, but the context of the episode implicates to not be affect by the criticism. One major problem: None of the RM6 were criticized. They were directly abused, three of whom have their lives directly impacted by these bullies. But the RM6 treat it as no big deal and don't worry about the consequences of Rarity's business being flushed down the toilet, FS's stalkers, and AJ's trespassers. The context makes the moral very dangerous.

It doesn't. If F&M is supposed to prove how far they've come, they must show it thoroughly, from where they started to where they are now. Like almost all episodes previously, F&M behaves as a standalone; if this is a viewer's first foray into FIM, they have to rely on claims — and claims alone — by ponies like FS and the song, and the episode has to hope the audience believes them. The audience shouldn't have to research online or watch previous episodes to understand what's going on and believe what they're saying.

Wrong. I did. When I first listened to it, I considered it the worst song of the season. Now, I call it the worst song of the series.

This part hurts your point. It's saying their flaws are what bond them, keep them bonded, and make themselves function.

The lyrics below only prove Mr. Enter right.

Those three lines affirm what's so fucked up about F&M's secondary moral, and the last bit was repeated several times, including to end it. The entire song, especially the RM6's bit in the chorus, uses their flaws as a celebration to differentiate what makes them them. Personality flaws that CAN be changed should be encouraged; after all, self-improvement's one of FIM's core themes. The song doesn't suggest to improve, but to acknowledge it and say you should be happy with them. "Work in Progress" spits on that message of self-improvement.

So, in other words, you and Mr Enter are listening to the song for the moral and not what is presented in the episode, and that line doesn't hurt my point, depending on how you view it, it is an objective fact of life
"but it's our flaws that make us work" Maybe they meant it makes them work to improve themselves as we have seen in so many episodes. The moral at face value is not let others change who you are. You, Enter, and others can look for secondary morals and messed up themes if you want, but that is not at all what the writers were trying to teach nor will any kid take that away from the episode.

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

1 hour ago, Barique said:

How does it not work here?

Because, to repeat, context matters. The context used to teach the moral determines what makes it's valuable to teach kids or not. F&M's "be yourself" application is very clunky, because it glorifies flaws and doesn't recommend to change and improve.

If you want another example, Mr. E uses Dragon Quest. The moral is that boys can like things that are "girly," but implicates liking "boyish" activities is bad within it and stereotypes dragons as a whole. As a result, the moral becomes sexist and xenophobic.

33 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

that line doesn't hurt my point

It does. Think about the lyrics in their entirely and the implications attached to them. The lyrics within them tell specific cues to the audience, and the context beforehand matters, too. If you have completely different lyrics and not use the broken allegory of fictional characters being the staff (and the background characters seeing the RM6 as purely fictional) to tell that message, you're telling a completely different message, too.

The RM6 specifically telling the harassers several times "I like you for your flaws" applies a completely different message to "but it's our flaws that make us work." They say, through their glorification of said flaws, that they know their flaws, yet don't attempt to their fullest to improve. From a canonical context, it's hypocritical, because they're suggesting all the reformations and redemptions over the years is a waste of time. Former antagonists like Discord, Diamond Tiara, and Starlight realized their previous behavior was intolerable, and they worked hard to improve. Hell, if Discord didn't improve, become sensitive, treat ponies with respect, and learn a hard lesson from Twilight's Kingdom, he'll still be in stone.

33 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Maybe they meant it makes them work to improve themselves as we have seen in so many episodes.

Again, they don't show that in this episode. All the episode shows is the RM6 is their current state, but not where they began. The straw fans (and us as an audience) only see the outcome, not the journey and starting point.

"Show, don't tell" is a key principle to telling a story, especially one to educate kids. It really applies here.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Dark Qiviut

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

Just now, Dark Qiviut said:

Because, to repeat, context matters. The context used to teach the moral can determine what makes it's valuable to teach kids or not. F&M's "be yourself" application is very clunky, because it glorifies flaws and doesn't recommend to change and improve.

If you want another example, Mr. E uses Dragon Quest. The moral is that boys can like things that are "girly," but implicates liking "boyish" activities is bad within it and stereotyped dragons as a whole. As a result, the moral becomes sexist and xenophobic.

It does. Think about the lyrics in their entirely and the implications attached to them. The lyrics within them tell specific cues to the audience, and the context beforehand matters, too. If you have completely different lyrics and not use the broken allegory of fictional characters being the staff (and the background characters seeing the RM6 as purely fictional) to tell that message, you're telling a completely different message, too.

The RM6 specifically telling the harassers several times "I like you for your flaws" applies a completely different message to "but it's our flaws that make us work." They say, through their glorification of said flaws, that they know their flaws, yet don't attempt to their fullest to improve. From a canonical context, it's hypocritical, because they're suggesting all the reformations and redemptions over the years is a waste of time. Former antagonists like Discord, Diamond Tiara, and Starlight realized their previous behavior was intolerable, and they worked hard to improve. Hell, if Discord didn't improve, become sensitive, treat ponies with respect, and learn a hard lesson from Twilight's Kingdom, he'll still be in stone.

Again, they don't show that in this episode. All the episode shows is the RM6 is their current state, but not where they began. The straw fans (and us as an audience) only see the outcome, not the journey and starting point.

"Show, don't tell" is a key principle to telling a story, especially one to educate kids. It really applies here.

The journey is the series, the episode is deeply rooted in continuity, the story was just the mane 6 deciding to share their adventures with the ponies of Equestria. Why do we personally have to see where they began, I mean I guess they could have done that although that would have led to massive pacing issues. We only need to know what they were like in this episode, and we get that to some extent, and your complaint doesn't have much to do with the moral of the episode, more so the storytelling.

[Here No Longer 5,270]

52 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Because, to repeat, context matters. The context used to teach the moral determines what makes it's valuable to teach kids or not. F&M's "be yourself" application is very clunky, because it glorifies flaws and doesn't recommend to change and improve.

If you want another example, Mr. E uses Dragon Quest. The moral is that boys can like things that are "girly," but implicates liking "boyish" activities is bad within it and stereotypes dragons as a whole. As a result, the moral becomes sexist and xenophobic.

It does. Think about the lyrics in their entirely and the implications attached to them. The lyrics within them tell specific cues to the audience, and the context beforehand matters, too. If you have completely different lyrics and not use the broken allegory of fictional characters being the staff (and the background characters seeing the RM6 as purely fictional) to tell that message, you're telling a completely different message, too.

The RM6 specifically telling the harassers several times "I like you for your flaws" applies a completely different message to "but it's our flaws that make us work."

They say, through their glorification of said flaws, that they know their flaws, yet don't attempt to their fullest to improve.

Again, they don't show that in this episode. All the episode shows is the RM6 is their current state, but not where they began. The straw fans (and us as an audience) only see the outcome, not the journey and starting point.

"Show, don't tell" is a key principle to telling a story, especially one to educate kids. It really applies here.

Even if context really does matter as much as you imply it does here, the context of the whole situation would work perfectly. But yet again, your analysis here is showing me even more so that you completely missed the whole point of it. The moral, in part, is that it doesn't matter if you have flaws, they're what make you... you. Also, it's saying that you shouldn't impersonate somebody just because you like them. I don't understand how that's a moral that's not working.

..,.How? They never implied that "boyish" activities were bad, they just implied that the sexism between the dragons was not okay. If anything, that's actually a message for sexual equality instead of sexist. 

That's literally saying the exact same message either way...  It's almost like you're trying to contort this to justify an opinion that has little actually backing it up.

Uhm, Yes they do...   But that's what happens when you ignore half an episode to try to justify an opinion that has no backing.

You do realize that MLP is an entire series right...? That would be an issue if this where a movie, but it isn't. There's plenty of context in the series.

It doesn't really apply to an episode that effectively shows and tells the message. But you deny it does.

 

Even then most of this complaint is entirely off-topic anyways.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Barique

[cmarston1 5,951]

I actually think that it has a pretty good moral.

That being that artists are people too and don't deserve to be harassed by self entitled fans.

Which is a lesson that this specific fandom specifically needs to get through their collective heads, given how the show staff has been treated time after time over the years, even after directly calling out the fandom for their poor behavior.

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by cmarston1

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

11 hours ago, Barique said:

I don't think the context makes much of a difference personally

It does. If Trixie is the one who sings that song, you will think she just making an excuse for being annoying all the time (which shows in All Bottled Up and To Change a Changeling). However, this is the mane 6 we are talking about...

11 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

Oh, I dealt with that bullshit enough times that the Mane6 aren't such cases

 

The mane 6 have developed over the years, you can see how far they go, but they still not perfect ponies on Equestria. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Lambdadelta

[Here No Longer 5,270]

52 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

It does. If Trixie is the one who sings that song, you will think she just making an excuse for being annoying all the time (which shows in All Bottled Up and To Change a Changeling). However, this is the mane 6 we are talking about...

The mane 6 have developed over the years, you can see how far they go, but they still not perfect ponies on Equestria. 

Actually no I wouldn't... You're just making excuses now...  

Edited March 10, 2018 by Barique

[Mystic Brush 102]

The fact that people say this is the "worst" episode ever just baffles me. The mane six aren't implying that they're okay with being a cocky show off or being stuck up. They're implying that, "Hey, i'm just a living being like you, who made decisions that i regret and, are greatly improving upon them."

[Nyactis Mewcis Catlum 670]

10 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Hm, so it seems you, like Mr Enter completely missed the point of the episodes, it is honestly baffling to me how people could honestly get the moral wrong in this episode 

"We're not flawless, we're a work in progress, we got dents and we got quirks, but it's our flaws that make us work." That isn't saying never try to learn from your mistakes, it means don't let your mistakes consume you, embrace that as an individual, you are flawed and will always be flawed, but you shouldn't strive to be perfect, but strive to be your best self.  That is the moral of Fame and Misfortune, that is the point of the episode and I can't believe someone like Mr Enter would be so stupid to not understand that point.

That's the main issue with this whole episode: if the episode was about what you're saying it is, about criticism in personal relationships and how they can get you down and you shouldn't feel down about having flaws, then what you're saying would be acceptable.

But that's not what the episode is about. The episode is about targeting critics of the show. It's not here to teach a moral, it's here to suggest that the critics are taking the show the wrong way. You and I both know that's exactly what the episode was trying to say. It inherently has a mean-spirited edge, so much so that M.A. Larson, the writer of the episode, said that he was unhappy with writing it and knew that it would come off that way. If the writer himself knew that it would come off that way, maybe that should suggest to you that there are unfortunate implications behind it and the critics who are finding those implications aren't just looking for something to complain about. The very premise itself is the problem.

Because it's based off of a false idea: that there is a wrong way to consume media.

The moral is soured because of this, and it leads to a bunch of unfortunate implications. With fictional characters, it's actually great to love them because of their flaws, because it's what makes them realistic - thus, the song works in that context. But take it outside of that context, as you must for the target audience for this show, and that's where it all falls apart. You don't love real people because of their flaws, and there are some flaws that are absolutely inexcusable for people to have. This is not the case for fictional characters. It is a mistake to blur the line between the two like this, because what's acceptable for a fictional character to do may not be acceptable for a real person.

Discord causing chaos in the show is hilarious and funny for us, and it's perfectly normal and expected for you to love him because of that. But if you knew him as a real person, you'd hate him. Certain villainous characters are fun to watch and them being villainous is amazing because it creates a conflict within the story, but in a real life setting they would absolutely deserve to be thrown straight into jail. Conversely, a character being rather kind and sweet and constantly maturing in real life would be the ideal that everyone should strive for, but in fiction it'd be boring to watch; Twilight Sparkle received a lot of heat for this, and although I don't agree with it, you can see where the concern comes from.

This episode tries to apply criticisms of characters in a real world context when the two of them simply aren't equivalent, and that's what makes the moral have the horrible implications that it does.

[Dark Qiviut 22,173]

11 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

The journey is the series

The journal contains lessons primarily from season 4, Return of Harmony's the lone exception. No other lesson from the other seasons was recorded into it.

11 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

the episode is deeply rooted in continuity

1. For shows like this one, continuity operates primarily as a tool to tell their stories while not getting newcomers lost. With over 140 episodes to begin season 7, this goal becomes more important. F&M relies on continuity for the audience to fully understand it. If the audience doesn't understand it, the story makes lesser sense than it already does.
2. The continuity F&M relied on was broken front and back. Daring Do's secret identity and adventures are outed. The background ponies, which have grown a massive fanbase over the years, suddenly act like OOC assholes just for the sake of it (and it's one of Larson's biggest problems with F&M). The RM6's growing popularity (and vice-versa) comes as a result of publishing their journal, when they're already national AND international celebrities. The whole premise contradicts continuity, because there's no care for backstory, lore, or characterization just to teach a broken meta-centric lesson to the periphery demographic.

11 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Why do we personally have to see where they began

Because the straw critics claim they haven't grown and don't even exist, and the episode did a very lazy attempt to prove them wrong.

Then again, the RM6 are arguing and abused by walking fallacies, so maybe you'd have to retool the whole piece of the plot to not make it a bigger fustercluck than it already is. After all, the setting is Ponyville, not Ponutville.

11 hours ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

your complaint doesn't have much to do with the moral of the episode, more so the storytelling.

I have big problems with the story, too. But I long covered that point and don't need to go so over it.

---

@Barique

1. The context absolutely matters. Why? Because it determines the execution of the moral and whether unfortunate implications are attached to it or not. The story leading up to the moral was really bungled, thanks in part to the antagonists being written as abusive, quarter-dimensional straw characters, artificially serious tone, and the journal's treatment as a piece of fiction instead of nonfiction.
   
   Secondly, the "we're flawed" argument doesn't accurately apply to what the Canterlot reporter said. He was critical of the journal, because details explained from Twilight's entries make little sense.
   
   On top of that, the straw characters view the RM6 as completely fictional characters…even though in story, the RM6 are very real and standing before them. The allegory completely falls apart, because neither side's on equal ground. The abusers are painted with such an enormous stupid stick that the fandom allegories collapse on top of themselves.
    

   10 hours ago, Barique said:

   Also, it's saying that you shouldn't impersonate somebody just because you like them.

   That's not a moral in the episode, nor was it even implied.
    

2. 10 hours ago, Barique said:

   ..,.How? They never implied that "boyish" activities were bad, they just implied that the sexism between the dragons was not okay. If anything, that's actually a message for sexual equality instead of sexist. 

   They absolutely imply it.
   
   a. The RM4 mock Spike because he did and wore something "feminine" and treat the concept of dragons with such a xenophobic tone…yet the episode sides with them.
   
   b. "Boyish" activities are attached to sexist stereotypes of dragons, thus painting their activities (and variations of it) as a bad thing.
   
   By painting one activity and folks of a specific gender in the wrong, you're encouraging sexism, even if it's not your intent.

3. 10 hours ago, Barique said:

   That's literally saying the exact same message either way...

   When the lyrics have crap like this:

   Quote

   Our flaws helped to make us special
   They bond us and keep us strong
   Our flaws are what brought us together
   So stop actin' like somethin's wrong

   So tell me what flaws you got, too
   'Cause I still like what's flawed about you <--- Sung thrice

   …You're not saying that you like them for being them, but that the flaws are to be celebrated for bringing the "real-life" group together and shouldn't be improved upon. Many of their flaws caused massive conflict between each other or others, sometimes to the point of really heated. For example, Rarity in RTM almost fell out with her friends after her massive breakdown. Twilight's newfound patience in Zeppelin finally wore off to where she lashed out at her family and feigned apology to Star Tracker for stepping on his hoof. Their actions were understandable for different reasons, yet NOT written in the right. Neither Rarity nor Twilight excused their behavior and actively worked to improve. A character flaw isn't justification for bad behavior.
   
   Secondly, liking them for being them makes much more sense when dealing with with their quirks, interests, and strengths. In short, liking them in spite of their flaws and seeing their positives trump the negatives. The Little Red-Haired Girl from The Peanuts Movie liked Charlie Brown for his honesty, dedication, bravery, sticking up for his little sister, and sweet personality. Had she said she liked him because of his bad luck and failures, you'll really insult the audience.
   
   If the RM6 explain they like and admire each other for their ability to overcome a lifelong phobia (FS), standing up to do the right thing at a cost of something dear to them (RD), dedication to keep them happy (PP), triumphing against personal demons (SG), pursuing a higher standard of learning to help spread the magic of friendship abroad (TS), spending quality time to help others at the cost of her own (Rarity), and sticking up to friends despite not seeing them for years (AJ), that would work much better. Why? Because you're highlighting strengths from the RM7 and explaining personality flaws that some of them not only realize, but also successfully overcame or in the middle of doing so. You're turning what they learned into something positive and constructive for everyone.
   
   The RM6 don't do that. They not only acknowledge their flaws very passively; but also act happy about them. The only time Flawless acknowledges self improvement — It took me a while to be confident; To really come out of my shell — was quick, expository, and too vague to take beyond face value. They don't back up their claim.
   
   To echo @Scootaloved (who calls out the false debate much better than I), this episode intentionally blurs the line between fiction and reality to attack the critics. The audience loving fictional characters for their flaws is fine, because flaws are important to make them three-dimensional. But this show's primary goal is to teach real-life lessons of friendship to kids, and we're supposed to take what they say seriously. F&M applies a false equivalence to teach the bold-faced lie that real-life flaws are universally okay. It's not.
    

4. 10 hours ago, Barique said:

   You do realize that MLP is an entire series right...?

   a. To repeat, FIM episodes traditionally operate under a self-contained format so newcomers don't get lost when watching it for the first time. Continuity's a tool to create stories, despite the timeling being continuous.
   
   b. You're talking to a veteran brony who understands this series quite well. I know what I'm talking about.

5. 10 hours ago, Barique said:

   It doesn't really apply to an episode that effectively shows and tells the message. But you deny it does.

   I am denying, and I'll keep denying, because it doesn't show the message well at all. The "story" is lazy, confused, and broken. Nothing makes sense. An autobiographical journal's treated as a piece of fiction to tell the audience there's a right and wrong way to view the show; fiction never works that way. The "Death of the Author" theory exists for a reason. But usage of its vessel falls apart on a fundamental level, because the journal is nonfiction, yet the straw critics view it as fiction. Continuity's blatantly disregarded.
   
   That lazy storytelling and horrendous editing bled across other parts of the story. The main moral to conclude F&M's a complete pile of shit, because it's executed so poorly. The RM6 write the "critics" off as harmless, when their lives are still ruined thanks to the abuse they suffered all day. The target demographic is talked down to and considered expendable through two token characters getting the "right interpretation," when kids were also treated with the same level of contempt with adults five minutes before. The moral spoken during Flawless is fundamentally backwards and works neither on its own nor in conjunction with the story.

I don't say this word anywhere nearly so often anymore, but here, it applies: F&M is objectively awful. The morals are among the worst of the series. Neither deserve the support they get.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Dark Qiviut