School of Friendship and racism

[RDDash 18,847]

The school of friendship is not racist, an entire EEC board is.

[Altastrofae 933]

1 minute ago, Wolfhog said:

They don't because of willful ignorance, not because it's not actually beneficial. By comparison, the regimes that you compared it to were not beneficial to those being converted.

You could certainly argue that it's immoral to force something that will benefit a society onto them - citing my example as before, that it's immoral to force them to accept food if they don't want it, or technologies because they'd rather live traditionally. But from my perspective, it's foolhardy to reject something that is demonstrably good for you that will help your society out when it's offered. In this case, friendship and social commune couldn't hurt the already impoverished griffon society any worse than they were already hurting themselves by the time Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash got there. They rejected it out of a nationalistic pride, and admitting as such, I don't think, is even remotely analogous to racism or religious intolerance.

I do think part of the reason these come off as such unfortunate implications is that we haven't seen one society that appears to be managing on its own without pony intervention. (Except the hippogriffs, but even they needed help from the ponies to get out of being trapped undersea.) The idea that friendship is unique to ponies is what makes the analogy so easy to make. If it were something that other societies demonstrated, it'd be easier to see that what the ponies are doing ultimately helps and strengthens the world around them.

Don't forget that part of the reason the ponies are "preaching" this so hard is because the very same issue used to divide them, too. Unicorns, pegasi, and earth ponies did not used to live in harmony; they were at odds, and it resulted in their societies nearly falling apart. It was through their unification that they managed to repair their horrible situations.

I mean to say that it isn't about what's better for them, it's about whether or not they're willing to take that leap in social standings. I'm not speaking of whether or not anything was beneficial, as it's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make

[Thrond 3,257]

46 minutes ago, CrystalBloodMoon said:

I know, right? It's like Hitler when he spread German territory into the Third Reich, or when the Crusades began and Warriors of the Cross dispatched in Roman and Celtic lands and held them at sword-point, saying to convert or die. The only difference is that there was no violence (well... a little) and Twilight never created a "Final Solution" of killing all of the Yaks and Sadle Arabians and anypony else who wasn't a pony.

Not racist, but, arguably, very very very... disturbing...

Well, not that; more some basic "white man's burden" type stuff. At least they're not conquering places to "civilize" them. 

[Quadropus 171]

Rule 98573227482960487329: if anything exists, someone will think its racist.

[Altastrofae 933]

Just now, Quadropus said:

Rule 98573227482960487329: if anything exists, someone will think its racist.

PINKIE PIE IS RACIST FOR THE DISCRIMINATION OF THE PINK SKINNED APES OF SOUTHERN BRAZIL!

[Nyactis Mewcis Catlum 670]

Just now, CrystalBloodMoon said:

I mean to say that it isn't about what's better for them, it's about whether or not they're willing to take that leap in social standings. I'm not speaking of whether or not anything was beneficial, as it's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make

Perhaps my talk of it diluted my own counterargument. My apologies. Let me try to be more succinct about what I'm attempting to say.

I don't think they're being "forced" to accept any perspective. I think they already put themselves in a corner, and they don't want to admit that they're in that corner. That was the case for the griffons, who claimed they didn't need friendship, not because they didn't need it, and not even because they didn't think they needed it deep down, but because they were unwilling to admit that they made a mistake. Hence, my saying that I don't think the analogies you made were quite accurate to what the show was actually portraying.

But to the point that it's immoral to force a perspective on someone, I would ordinarily agree with you on that...if that someone, or that society, aren't in mortal danger of collapse. In that case, I would place the welfare of that person(s) above any perspective they may personally have. I totally get your general perspective, I'm just attempting to say that, to me, it's different in this case and the "force" that is used (if there is any at all, which I actually kind of question, too, as Twilight and her friends don't actually use force, but instead their words and their actions, to convince the groups that friendship is worth embracing) is justified.

13 minutes ago, Quadropus said:

Rule 98573227482960487329: if anything exists, someone will think its racist.

I mean, to be fair, Chancellor Neighsay is pretty damn racist, but he's not in charge of the School of Friendship (thank goodness).

[Altastrofae 933]

2 minutes ago, Wolfhog said:

Perhaps my talk of it diluted my own counterargument. My apologies. Let me try to be more succinct about what I'm attempting to say.

I don't think they're being "forced" to accept any perspective. I think they already put themselves in a corner, and they don't want to admit that they're in that corner. That was the case for the griffons, who claimed they didn't need friendship, not because they didn't need it, and not even because they didn't think they needed it deep down, but because they were unwilling to admit that they made a mistake. Hence, my saying that I don't think the analogies you made were quite accurate to what the show was actually portraying.

But to the point that it's immoral to force a perspective on someone, I would ordinarily agree with you on that...if that someone, or that society, aren't in mortal danger of collapse. In that case, I would place the welfare of that person(s) above any perspective they may personally have. I totally get your general perspective, I'm just attempting to say that, to me, it's different in this case and the "force" that is used (if there is any at all, which I actually kind of question, too, as Twilight and her friends don't actually use force, but instead their words and their actions, to convince the groups that friendship is worth embracing) is justified.

I mean, to be fair, Chancellor Neighsay is pretty damn racist, but he's not in charge of the School of Friendship (thank goodness).

True, I hadn't really considered the situation with the Griffons. I can see your point there, and most others even asked for and appreciated the aid. Hm... I don't know, a school for friendship just seems off in the department of idealism 

[Ganondox 899]

4 hours ago, heavens-champion said:

Some people among the fandom think the School of Friendship is racist because it's founded by ponies. What do you guys think of this line of thinking?

It’s not racist for that reason, but the idea that pony culture is superior to other cultures would be pretty racist. It reminds me a bit of the Native American assimilation schools in concept, but in practice it appears to be more of a Wilsonian thing bringing global peace. 

1 hour ago, Wolfhog said:

I think arguably there are greater differences to it than that. The comparison you're making is making this seem analogous to religious/race-related pursuits - but a better analogy would be to compare it to the spread of technology and supplies to impoverished or deprived areas. It's ultimately beneficial for the societies that are participating in the lessons, and those who deny it are usually doing it out of a sense of pride, rather than an actual disagreement/lack of need of the ideas being presented.

Also, admittance in the School of Friendship is voluntary, and the episodes demonstrate this.

The issue with a lot of the spread of ideas in the real world is that they have detrimental consequences to those the ideas are being spread to, but every single society that has had friendship spread to it has benefited from it.

It’s less like the spread of technology, and more like the spread of democracy. This is especially true when you consider a couple of the nations used to be ruled by tyrants whose replacements were sponsored by the ponies, and the trigger for this was the defeat of the Storm King. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Ganondox

[heavens-champion 1,893]

35 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

It’s not racist for that reason, but the idea that pony culture is superior to other cultures would be pretty racist. It reminds me a bit of the Native American assimilation schools in concept, but in practice it appears to be more of a Wilsonian thing bringing global peace. 

It’s less like the spread of technology, and more like the spread of democracy. This is especially true when you consider a couple of the nations used to be ruled by tyrants whose replacements were sponsored by the ponies, and the trigger for this was the defeat of the Storm King. 

Oh joy. You're comparing it to the U.S. Government's intrusive foreign policy. (Yes, as a resident of the U.S., I disagree with it.)

It's like you're missing the point of the show. Hmmm... I am suddenly getting Fame and Misfortune vibes.

Edited March 25, 2018 by heavens-champion

[Ganondox 899]

29 minutes ago, heavens-champion said:

Oh joy. You're comparing it to the U.S. Government's intrusive foreign policy. (Yes, as a resident of the U.S., I disagree with it.)

It's like you're missing the point of the show. Hmmm... I am suddenly getting Fame and Misfortune vibes.

I'm not talking about the specific foreign policy, I'm talking about the broader political philosophy. Basically ensuring world peace by spreading your ideas to your former enemies and other nations in general. It's kinda hard to argue the the ponies aren't doing that. More over, I'm contrasting it with the the forced assimilation of Native Americans, which was actually racist. So it's not that I'm missing the point of the show, it's that you're missing the point of my response. If you didn't want a response like this, you shouldn't have asked the question in the first place. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Ganondox

[heavens-champion 1,893]

3 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

I'm not talking about the specific foreign policy, I'm talking about the broader political philosophy. Basically ensuring world peace by spreading your ideas to your former enemies and other nations in general. It's kinda hard to argue the the ponies aren't doing that. More over, I'm contrasting it with the the forced assimilation of Native Americans, which was actually racist. So it's not that I'm missing the point of the show, it's that you're missing the point of my response. If you didn't want a response like this, you shouldn't have asked the question in the first place. 

So, you're saying friendship is exclusively a pony thing. If not, well, it sure sounds like it.

[Ganondox 899]

54 minutes ago, heavens-champion said:

So, you're saying friendship is exclusively a pony thing. If not, well, it sure sounds like it.

No, the show is, in the same sense democracy was exclusively an American thing. 

[Nyactis Mewcis Catlum 670]

2 hours ago, Ganondox said:

It’s less like the spread of technology, and more like the spread of democracy. This is especially true when you consider a couple of the nations used to be ruled by tyrants whose replacements were sponsored by the ponies, and the trigger for this was the defeat of the Storm King. 

The reason I avoided comparing it to that is because people still debate over whether or not democracy is the best system to run with, and the point that I was attempting to illustrate was that what the ponies were spreading was unambiguously beneficial for the governments that they spread it to. But you are right that the common theme of dictatorships giving way to democracy is similar in nature.

1 hour ago, heavens-champion said:

So, you're saying friendship is exclusively a pony thing. If not, well, it sure sounds like it.

This is what the central problem is and why people are tempted to compare the spreading of friendship to the spread of religious dogma: it makes it seem more skeevy when only the ponies are spreading that idea. If other nations demonstrated it as well, thriving nations, then it would make it clearer that the intention is not to resemble conquering lands righteously but instead the message that it intends to send, which is that the ponies are doing this to help nations that sorely need it.

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

This is what happens when a fandom accepts SJWs. These people are scum. Fuck all of them.

[RDDash 18,847]

I really wish they showed us what the rest of Equestrian government is like, and by that I mean is for MLP to go into the Star Wars prequels route. Politics.

 

Or. Or, Twilight could just proclaim her own micronation, and the rest of chancellors can go take a hike.

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

16 minutes ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

This is what happens when a fandom accepts SJWs. These people are scum. Fuck all of them.

Chill a bit, Rambo.

SJWs (assuming we have the same definition of them) are annoying, sure, but you don’t need to act like a Dalek about it. EXTERMINATE.

They’re just human beings.

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

Just now, ShadOBabe said:

Chill a bit, Rambo.

SJWs (assuming we have the same definition of them) are annoying, sure, but you don’t need to act like a Dalek about it. EXTERMINATE.

They’re just human beings.

Hitler was a human being too. I don't have to regard him as such, or anybody else who wants to exert control over us by playing the victim card all the time. The fact they're actually pulling this crap over a cartoon is a new low.

[Xe__or 4,376]

10 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

You might be misunderstanding, but I don't know what you've been reading. I just don't like that Twilight seems to think that ponies need to spread friendship to non-pony species. I feel that has disturbing real-world parallels. 

I'm also quiet uncomfortable with that; I actually think it's too arrogant to think that other species don't know what friendship is

[CypherHoof 26,479]

4 minutes ago, Gachin said:

I'm also quiet uncomfortable with that; I actually think it's too arrogant to think that other species don't know what friendship is

It IS one of those over-sweeping general statements that always have exceptions, yes.

Of the races in question, the Dragons and the Griffons have demonstrated a lack of understanding of friendship; the changelings also historically have not known its value, although they do/did have team spirit (but no doubt the Power of Friendship is a big part of what Thorax has brought to them) so that's three.

However, the Yaks have not found it hard to form friendships (even with non-yaks, hence Pink Pony Power) and the hippogriphs too are aware of the power of friendship - so that's a 3/5 on the theory that a friendship school is needed for ALL non-ponies, and when you include that most of the attendees ARE ponies, that makes it 3/6 - not a good ratio.

That said, that isn't a reason to exclude all but the former three; it is not so much teaching the other races WHAT friendship is, as giving them the opportunity to make friends across species boundaries, and I think from the very first episode the show demonstrates how successful this has been, given the overwhelming desire of the new "creature six" to remain in contact/together, despite the best efforts of the EEA.

[GrimGrimoire 4,970]

For some friendship is racism. The idea of accepting each others differences and getting along is unthinkable. We see it in this very forum all the time, and even in this very thread.

Preconceived notions and personal bias is a bitch.

[Xe__or 4,376]

Just now, CypherHoof said:

It IS one of those over-sweeping general statements that always have exceptions, yes.

Of the races in question, the Dragons and the Griffons have demonstrated a lack of understanding of friendship; the changelings also historically have not known its value, although they do/did have team spirit (but no doubt the Power of Friendship is a big part of what Thorax has brought to them) so that's three.

However, the Yaks have not found it hard to form friendships (even with non-yaks, hence Pink Pony Power) and the hippogriphs too are aware of the power of friendship - so that's a 3/5 on the theory that a friendship school is needed for ALL non-ponies, and when you include that most of the attendees ARE ponies, that makes it 3/6 - not a good ratio.

That said, that isn't a reason to exclude all but the former three; it is not so much teaching the other races WHAT friendship is, as giving them the opportunity to make friends across species boundaries, and I think from the very first episode the show demonstrates how successful this has been, given the overwhelming desire of the new "creature six" to remain in contact/together, despite the best efforts of the EEA.

Problem is :

 

- from what I remember, the "new" changelings actually get to live in a friendly way now, from what we saw in Trixie/Starlight's episode. They form groups, clubs, etc... so they do appear to know how to form bounds from that point. It's not  that they need to be taught about friendship; just form bounds with other species.

- we didn't get to see the griffons for quiet a long time; we don't know how their way of life evolved from that episode in Griffonstone

- the dragons are the only ones that could be bothersome; they don't seem to be quiet friendly... but then again what do we know about their way of living? They're rude, sure, but rudeness is all that we saw - all that the writers cared to show us-  and we didn't get to see much really. I remember them forming groups, playing games as well; I don't know why, but I don't feel like they really need to be taught everything all over.

 

if you want to teach other species acceptance and cohabitation with other species, sure, do as you please. But Twilight's words are: "spread friendship"; spread it, spread THEIR vision of friendship. Then again that's all up to interpretation; but that's really how I felt it when she said that.

[cmarston1 5,951]

This comes from the same criticisms that people have with episodes focusing on the cutie map. In that people feel like that it is indicative of imperialism with the ponies "spreading friendship across equestria and beyond" feeling like they are imposing their values onto other nations and cultures.

[Nyactis Mewcis Catlum 670]

1 hour ago, Gachin said:

- from what I remember, the "new" changelings actually get to live in a friendly way now, from what we saw in Trixie/Starlight's episode. They form groups, clubs, etc... so they do appear to know how to form bounds from that point. It's not  that they need to be taught about friendship; just form bounds with other species.

It's clear that they're still pretty new to the concept, and although Thorax and his fellow changelings are friendly, it's easy to see from Thorax's gripes toward Spike, along with the other problems he has leading the changelings, that it's a little rocky going for them at times, and there's no sense in not attending a welcoming, open environment where he can learn more about it. A willingness to be friendly doesn't mean that he's actually good at friendship, much the same way that me being able to sing in front of a crowd doesn't mean that I'm not off-key.

1 hour ago, Gachin said:

- we didn't get to see the griffons for quiet a long time; we don't know how their way of life evolved from that episode in Griffonstone

Given that the griffon was the most stubborn of the group, and the authority figure griffon clearly still saw the idea of friendship as a complete waste of time, I think it's safe to say they have a long way to go still.

1 hour ago, Gachin said:

- the dragons are the only ones that could be bothersome; they don't seem to be quiet friendly... but then again what do we know about their way of living? They're rude, sure, but rudeness is all that we saw - all that the writers cared to show us-  and we didn't get to see much really. I remember them forming groups, playing games as well; I don't know why, but I don't feel like they really need to be taught everything all over.

They know one side of communion, but not the entire thing. They build their society off of competition, which can easily chew itself and spit itself back out.

1 hour ago, Gachin said:

if you want to teach other species acceptance and cohabitation with other species, sure, do as you please.

I mean, it is essentially what the ponies themselves learned, communion. It's what allowed Equestria to become as strong as it is. And they're not taking away their culture by suggesting that they need to work on acting as a community among themselves and with other species, merely expanding it and making it richer.

1 hour ago, Gachin said:

But Twilight's words are: "spread friendship"; spread it, spread THEIR vision of friendship. Then again that's all up to interpretation; but that's really how I felt it when she said that.

Or perhaps "spread friendship" reaches children and rolls off the tongue better than "spread skills in making friends, diplomatic relations, and benefiting interpersonal relationships". 

[CypherHoof 26,479]

51 minutes ago, Gachin said:

Problem is :

 

- from what I remember, the "new" changelings actually get to live in a friendly way now, from what we saw in Trixie/Starlight's episode. They form groups, clubs, etc... so they do appear to know how to form bounds from that point. It's not  that they need to be taught about friendship; just form bounds with other species.

Indeed, which is why I made the distinction that historically, this wasn't true. But equally, Thorax forwarded a grubling to the school, not because he didn't know about friendship (given his bonds to Spike and GlimGlam) but in order that Ocellus could make friends outside the changeling kingdom (although the name is a liiiiitle suspicious ) and says she is shy (well, she DOES hide under Fluttershy's hair at one point )

I am assuming the same is true of the other delegates; Ember knows the value of friendship, so has forced Smolder (who doesn't see the value) to come; Gallus (again, interesting name) is similarly doubtful of the value, but was forced to come by Grandpa Gruff.  By contrast, silverstream and Yona are initially excited to be there (but somewhat disappointed in the actual school).

51 minutes ago, Gachin said:

- we didn't get to see the griffons for quiet a long time; we don't know how their way of life evolved from that episode in Griffonstone

We don't, but I would doubt things have magically changed there. It is possible though; after all, we have Gabby, who was inspired to visit the CMC.

 

51 minutes ago, Gachin said:

- the dragons are the only ones that could be bothersome; they don't seem to be quiet friendly... but then again what do we know about their way of living? They're rude, sure, but rudeness is all that we saw - all that the writers cared to show us-  and we didn't get to see much really. I remember them forming groups, playing games as well; I don't know why, but I don't feel like they really need to be taught everything all over.

 

if you want to teach other species acceptance and cohabitation with other species, sure, do as you please. But Twilight's words are: "spread friendship"; spread it, spread THEIR vision of friendship. Then again that's all up to interpretation; but that's really how I felt it when she said that.

Well, I guess its up for debate, but I am giving her the benefit of the doubt that she isn't trying to force the concept of friendship "on the savages" but in fact spread actual instances of friendship - as exemplified by the Creature Six

[BastementSparkle 20,310]

I would like to point out, that the school of Friendship isn't just targeting other species, but ponies themselves too. Heck, from what we saw it actually looks like the majority of their students are ponies, even if the new Creature six mostly aren't. It's the same thing with the Cutie Map too, haven't most of the missions it's sent them on been to solve friendship problems between other ponies? Yeah, there was one in Griffonstone, but I think that's actually the only non-pony mission it's sent them on so far. I can sort of understand where some people's discomfort is coming from, but it's not like the Mane Six are specifically targeting non-ponies, they're trying to spread Friendship to everyone, pony or not. The school is welcome to all, and the map will send the ponies to solve friendship problems no matter what species has the problem.