S08:E09 - Non-Compete Clause

[Justin_Case001 4,855]

20 hours ago, DuskUnicorn said:

Yeah that was my big take-away for this episode.  Time can really flow strangely in this show.  We can go multiple seasons with less than a year going by (from S2 May the Best Pet Win when Dash first meets Tank and makes him her pet, to S5 Tanks for the Memories, when he has his first winter and needs to hibernate).  Then we have something like this, where within a couple of episodes at least 3/4s of a year has gone by.  Of course here it was for the visual gag and setting up the reason for the competitiveness.  If it wasn't for that I suspect the writers wouldn't have wanted to imply so much time passing.

Yeah.  For sure.  I actually have some headcanons about that.  So, I believe that seasons in Equestria work (or sometimes work, depending on what the pegasi do) like Game of Thrones.  I.e. sometimes seasons can last for years.  I believe that between Best Pet and Tanks for the Memories, they were in the long summer, which lasted for several years.  (But I don't remember if there was a snowy Hearth's Warming episode between there, so that might punch a hole in that theory.)

And then, on the other hoof, perhaps in Equestria, months are shorter, or maybe they have more months in a year than we do, so maybe Fluttershy's nine wins doesn't mark as much time passage as we think, or something like that.  But I'm sure the truth is just the visual gag like you said, and the writers probably didn't think too much into it.

[Sinvanor 25]

On 5/12/2018 at 7:16 PM, Dark Qiviut said:

I already watched it when it was leaked, and my thoughts remain the same. This episode is crap.

AJ and Rainbow Dash were completely OOC here, especially the latter for putting her focus on winning Teacher of the Month over the Student Six's safety while rowing. Thank God FIM's a piece of fiction, because had it be real-life, the school and Twilight might've had their plots sued for negligence.

This episode features easily my bottom moment of the season: Yona nearly drowning. You'd think for a second that Dash and AJ would stop acting competitive with each other, grow the fuck up, and learn to be teachers. Instead, they continue to qualify one of Neighsay's strongest criticisms of the School: AJ and RD act completely unqualified. You two, this isn't Fall Weather Friends; at least you two weren't that close at the time, and the stakes were much lower. Had they remained competent and in character, that canoeing accident wouldn't have happened, and Yona wouldn't have to have her life saved.

The dialogue itself is lousy. Clunky, forced, and painfully unfunny.

To make it worse, this episode feels a lot like filler. After thy learned how their competitive behavior got in the way, they started arguing again, and it was all back to square one.

The only saving graces here are Twilight calling Dash and AJ out for their shit (and threatening to take over the field trip after Yona nearly drowned) and Dash and AJ getting nominated for TotM — them risking that reward will make them think about how stupid they behaved on the trip.

Overall, a major thumbs down.

It's not out of character in the slightest. Running of the leaves had them changing directions on where to go, leading AJ up a cliff. There was no thought in RD's head for any other pony that might see that and not catch that it was the wrong way or get hurt.
They always only focus on themselves when they get into this mode.

What drove me most insane was that the episode acknowledged that this was dumb.

1.) Twilight instantly caught on that they were just competing and not teaching. Yet lampshaded it in the same breath "I guess you two have learned" no, it's clear they are lying through their teeth, you can see it on their faces.

2.) The students EASILY could of flown everyone over the ravine. "It would of been so much easier to just fly home."

3.) They fought at the end AGAIN. They learned absolutely ziltch. I swear this is so that they can use this dumb plot point AGAIN but acknowledge that "But it was clear they didn't learn in the last episode, right audience!? Those darn mares, so zanny, guess we'll have to wait till next time and see if those two wacky gals learn their lesson!"
No, this whole episode was bullshit and it's put the nail in the coffin for me actually hating AJ overtime. She's gotten worse.

 

Rant about AJ incoming:
While both AJ and RD have become plot points, AJ is actually useless now. From the episode of AJ refusing to not fix things and relax, along with the Las pegasus trip, she's quickly becoming my least favorite pony ... In fact, I think she's the most useless character. I can't think of a single episode where she wasn't either a hindrance or basically an extra. The first Las Pegasus episode is like this too. Fluttershy already figured out that Flim and Flam were at least the first problem and AJ refused to acknowledge it.

She also just comes across as really dumb and controlling. And that sucks because a honest down home country gal who's hard working and willing to learn is what she was supposed to be. But the show has consistently made her dumb, competitive and over protective/pride-filled "She's speaking in fancy!" comes to mind. Especially since it's cannon that she tried living the city life. She isn't supposed to be this dumb and this careless.

She contributes nothing but either plot device, problems or just sorta dumb side character.
I really really hope this changes, because she ads a form or variety of targeting the idea that various people can be friends and fit their own mold. 
Hasbro, stop making her so insufferably stupid. I'm still not happy with RD, but at least they've acknowledged her issues more and made her more into a growing character again.I hate dreading new episodes when I know the characters they focus on. I want to at least find them decent character wise, even if an episode sucks. But not because of a character alone that ruins it.

On 5/15/2018 at 3:56 AM, Ganondox said:

The reason her life was in danger was due to a fluke accident where her life vest was torn off, for once it wasn't actually their fault. Yes, that wouldn't have been an issue if they didn't crash the boat, which in this case was their fault, but realistically such an event would be expected in a canoe driven by novices. Those thing capsize really easily. So I can't actually blame them for this. Also, the point of the exchange wasn't that Yona nearly died because Rainbow Dash and Applejack suck, but that she was easily saved because the students could together to implement a solution. 

1. I've criticized this attitude many times, but in this case the similarity was actually lampshaded at the beginning. The similarity here was probably intentional, and I'm thinking it may be due to the shear amount of time that has passed since the beginning of the series, they might be recycling some ideas for the sake of their newer viewers. Anyway, there is some very important differences, namely Fall Weather Friends was about a race so they were *supposed* to be competitive, they just got carried to far, while here the theme was about teamwork and they were supposed to set an example. In FWF, they were deliberately sabotaging each other's efforts, here the issue was just that they weren't working together. The themes are quite different, it's just that *one* mechanic in the conflict is the same.

2. I really don't care, they still acted like Applejack and Rainbow Dash, just at their worst rather than at their best. This fandom's attitude toward's character growth and being OOC is ridiculous anyway for two reasons. One, it's unrealistic as it's simply not how people work, and two, it's just lame because overtime it removes any possibility for conflict and thus actually having an episode to watch. You also basically just confirmed it's my intuition about why it's disliked. 

3. See my last post as that's not quite what happened. This also falls under them being idiots. 

4. They were less disagreeable and more overly agreeable. When it comes to leadership and teamwork, it's an important distinction, which was the focus of the episode. The episode was only half done at that point, and they had other aspects of teamwork that needed to be explored, that was fine.  

5. The lesson WASN'T for them, it was for the students, so it wasn't pointless at all. It's subtle, but after watching this show for this long I could pick up on the sorts of hints given which made the intention clear. Just because they ended up being more competent than their teachers doesn't mean they didn't learn something from the experience. Here the show took a different approach to the moral then they usually do, which should be praised rather than condemned. It's kinda ironic, because people keep complaining about superficial similarities, but when a substantial difference in story telling occurs it's criticized. Anyway, that was the punchline that they end every episode on, you shouldn't take it too seriously. 

Yes, it was stupid. It was supposed to be stupid though, it's was the comic direction this episode took. It might not be a direction which is popular among the fanbase, but it's still an entirely valid approach. It works precisely because Applejack and Rainbow Dash should know better. It's not lazy, it's intentional irony. The episode wasn't great by any means, but it really wasn't as bad as it's made out to be either. 

While it does take a while to learn a lesson "old habits die hard" there is a point where if you are putting people in potential danger/ruining a what would of been pleasant time for them, you should get repercussions.
AJ and RD got NONE. In fact, seeing the episode a second time, the students asked for them to be considered teacher of the month. There was absolutely NOTHING they did that the deserved it. If anything if felt out of pity or sheer forced resolve for the episode to have a "happy ending"

The students weren't dumb enough for this lesson. Heck, the audience of young 6 year old girls isn't either.
They already had their episode about competition among species and learning to accept each other and find strengths in different personalities and species. 
This episode was entirely pointless. Even Twilight and the students actually confirm this by pointing out the flaws in the episode and then lampshading them "You two are just competing aren't you?" - "We could of just flown over the ravine, instead our professors built bridges the wrong way to show us what not to do!"

Unless the students are really really dumb, they didn't need that lesson. Their kind words felt more out of pity and because it felt like they just wanted things to turn out good for everyone, not throw their teachers under the bus. 

In life, you learn by making mistakes. Neither of them learned they made a mistake, even if they half admitted all this was their fault, they didn't take that to heart.

When I make a mistake in life, I might make it again, sure, but it won't be in the exact same way and on each repercussion, either by making others feel bad, actually getting hurt etc I learn that what part of what I am doing is causing a negative outcome for myself and/or others around me.

RD and AJ don't seem to get this when it comes to their competitive streak. I personally don't think this episode was OOC, but I fully disagree that having the same faults over and over is a good idea. That's called plot device. It reduces the character to their flaw instead of say combining old flaws that have been helped, but collectively add up to a new problem, further showing the characters that they still have work to do on themselves.

If anything, Twilight should make sure RD and AJ don't work together in the future, they can't handle it.

[Singe 2,109]

The only thing missing from this episode was Neighsay popping out of no where going "Ah ha".

[Ganondox 899]

On 5/22/2018 at 5:19 AM, Sinvanor said:

It's not out of character in the slightest. Running of the leaves had them changing directions on where to go, leading AJ up a cliff. There was no thought in RD's head for any other pony that might see that and not catch that it was the wrong way or get hurt.
They always only focus on themselves when they get into this mode.

What drove me most insane was that the episode acknowledged that this was dumb.

1.) Twilight instantly caught on that they were just competing and not teaching. Yet lampshaded it in the same breath "I guess you two have learned" no, it's clear they are lying through their teeth, you can see it on their faces.

2.) The students EASILY could of flown everyone over the ravine. "It would of been so much easier to just fly home."

3.) They fought at the end AGAIN. They learned absolutely ziltch. I swear this is so that they can use this dumb plot point AGAIN but acknowledge that "But it was clear they didn't learn in the last episode, right audience!? Those darn mares, so zanny, guess we'll have to wait till next time and see if those two wacky gals learn their lesson!"
No, this whole episode was bullshit and it's put the nail in the coffin for me actually hating AJ overtime. She's gotten worse.

 

Rant about AJ incoming:
While both AJ and RD have become plot points, AJ is actually useless now. From the episode of AJ refusing to not fix things and relax, along with the Las pegasus trip, she's quickly becoming my least favorite pony ... In fact, I think she's the most useless character. I can't think of a single episode where she wasn't either a hindrance or basically an extra. The first Las Pegasus episode is like this too. Fluttershy already figured out that Flim and Flam were at least the first problem and AJ refused to acknowledge it.

She also just comes across as really dumb and controlling. And that sucks because a honest down home country gal who's hard working and willing to learn is what she was supposed to be. But the show has consistently made her dumb, competitive and over protective/pride-filled "She's speaking in fancy!" comes to mind. Especially since it's cannon that she tried living the city life. She isn't supposed to be this dumb and this careless.

She contributes nothing but either plot device, problems or just sorta dumb side character.
I really really hope this changes, because she ads a form or variety of targeting the idea that various people can be friends and fit their own mold. 
Hasbro, stop making her so insufferably stupid. I'm still not happy with RD, but at least they've acknowledged her issues more and made her more into a growing character again.I hate dreading new episodes when I know the characters they focus on. I want to at least find them decent character wise, even if an episode sucks. But not because of a character alone that ruins it.

While it does take a while to learn a lesson "old habits die hard" there is a point where if you are putting people in potential danger/ruining a what would of been pleasant time for them, you should get repercussions.
AJ and RD got NONE. In fact, seeing the episode a second time, the students asked for them to be considered teacher of the month. There was absolutely NOTHING they did that the deserved it. If anything if felt out of pity or sheer forced resolve for the episode to have a "happy ending"

The students weren't dumb enough for this lesson. Heck, the audience of young 6 year old girls isn't either.
They already had their episode about competition among species and learning to accept each other and find strengths in different personalities and species. 
This episode was entirely pointless. Even Twilight and the students actually confirm this by pointing out the flaws in the episode and then lampshading them "You two are just competing aren't you?" - "We could of just flown over the ravine, instead our professors built bridges the wrong way to show us what not to do!"

Unless the students are really really dumb, they didn't need that lesson. Their kind words felt more out of pity and because it felt like they just wanted things to turn out good for everyone, not throw their teachers under the bus. 

In life, you learn by making mistakes. Neither of them learned they made a mistake, even if they half admitted all this was their fault, they didn't take that to heart.

When I make a mistake in life, I might make it again, sure, but it won't be in the exact same way and on each repercussion, either by making others feel bad, actually getting hurt etc I learn that what part of what I am doing is causing a negative outcome for myself and/or others around me.

RD and AJ don't seem to get this when it comes to their competitive streak. I personally don't think this episode was OOC, but I fully disagree that having the same faults over and over is a good idea. That's called plot device. It reduces the character to their flaw instead of say combining old flaws that have been helped, but collectively add up to a new problem, further showing the characters that they still have work to do on themselves.

If anything, Twilight should make sure RD and AJ don't work together in the future, they can't handle it.

So many words to say what has already been said. I’m not going to be waste your time on nonsense where you take a punchline way too seriously and ignore what happened on the middle. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Ganondox

[Nyactis Mewcis Catlum 670]

On 5/14/2018 at 3:05 PM, CloudMistDragon said:

Like Fake It til' You Make It, this is another episode I feel is getting too much hate just for characters acting in a way they felt was OOC. Both AJ and Dash have always been competitive. Was that trait exaggerated for this episode? Yes...but it's a cartoon. It's for comedic effect. Like, I get people thinking the running gag of them competing was growing tiring, but back to the point, don't you think that it would be boring if AJ and Dash were completely above any sort of petty behavior whatsoever?

You're right. It would be boring if they aren't petty or they don't have moments where they get snippy or slip up sometimes. The problem is that 1) for these particular characters, it's hard to believe they would slip up in nearly the exact same way they've slipped up in multiple times and this time in a far higher stakes scenario and 2) the way they slipped up wasn't entertaining and didn't tread any new ground that other episodes haven't done already, and haven't done better. I can accept a slip up that's similar even with a character that's already grown if something interesting is done with the idea - like you said, conflict is the bread and butter of a story - but in this case, I don't think that was actually accomplished.

Given the way the episode is rated, a good majority of those who watched it don't think so, either.

On 5/14/2018 at 5:41 PM, Ganondox said:

I'm surprised at how negative the reception is, though I really shouldn't be as I really should know by now the the standard this forum uses to judge an episode being bad is if the mane cast act like idiots. Anyway, I just found it meh, it was a bit funny, but there just wasn't much too it. 

Certainly the Idiot Ball can be necessary for some plots, but the utter distaste that the fandom generally exhibits toward it is because of its utilization habitually within MLP: FiM, not necessarily because the Idiot Ball itself is inherently bad. In this case, the Idiot Ball was handed to characters who 1) did not learn their lesson, 2) don't really fit that particular Idiot Ball (this is especially the case for AJ), and 3) don't do anything interesting while they have it. To say simply that the issue people have with this episode is merely the fact that RD and AJ are OOC, even if that is the complaint most commonly communicated, does a disservice both to the episode and to the people who dislike it. Even if you don't agree with that reason, simplifying that reasoning to make it look more ridiculous doesn't make your argument look more credible, just fyi.

On 5/14/2018 at 6:56 PM, Ganondox said:

2. I really don't care, they still acted like Applejack and Rainbow Dash, just at their worst rather than at their best. This fandom's attitude toward's character growth and being OOC is ridiculous anyway for two reasons. One, it's unrealistic as it's simply not how people work, and two, it's just lame because overtime it removes any possibility for conflict and thus actually having an episode to watch. You also basically just confirmed it's my intuition about why it's disliked. 

[...]

Yes, it was stupid. It was supposed to be stupid though, it's was the comic direction this episode took. It might not be a direction which is popular among the fanbase, but it's still an entirely valid approach. It works precisely because Applejack and Rainbow Dash should know better. It's not lazy, it's intentional irony. The episode wasn't great by any means, but it really wasn't as bad as it's made out to be either. 

Response to 2 - To be honest, entertainment should be paramount over realism. The argument that it's "not realistic" is an argument that doesn't work in many contexts, and I would argue this is one of them. Also, it's not even a working argument here, anyway; it is entirely possible for someone to get over a vice once they recognized it is a vice and not just backslide, especially if it targets specific actions. For example, I used to name-call. Someone called me out for it. I immediately stopped name-calling, and haven't done so since. To give this blanket statement that it is absolutely impossible in a realistic setting to get over a vice is, in itself, an unrealistic expectation, and even potentially a dangerous one, depending on the behavior you're being dismissive toward. 

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that in all cases, it's unrealistic for someone to get over a problem they had or to stop doing a bad behavior when told no. It is NOT entertaining for a GOOD MAJORITY of people to see the hero struggle with the exact same problem in nearly the exact same way multiple times, and as I said before, entertainment IS paramount over realism; if realism must be sacrificed in order to make something more entertaining to watch, then it absolutely should be encouraged to be done; if sticking to realism was 100% the goal that MLP should prioritize, then we shouldn't have talking ponies to begin with. Also, saying that it removes any possibility for conflict seems creatively bankrupt to suggest. You really can't think of any way a conflict can be introduced without retreading the same ground the show has already gone through? Really? Especially when we have new characters, we have new developments, we have new relationships that have formed? If the only problem, the only problem, that RD and AJ can ever go through is to have their competition get out of hand, then that suggests these characters are incredibly flat. There's not any other problem that the two of them can have with their dynamic? Not one? There's nothing we can explore further with them? That's the issue with this retread and supporting this retread: you limit the amount of things that can be done by not challenging the writers to find something else to grapple onto with these characters. They go back to the same thing, over and over again. Perhaps you find this okay and entertaining, but given how often this complaint arises, that is not a popular opinion to have.

 

Lastly, and I don't have a big opinion piece for this, but just because a choice was intentional, doesn't mean it was a good choice.

[Misty Shadow 7,084]

3 hours ago, Nyactis Mewcis Catlum said:

You're right. It would be boring if they aren't petty or they don't have moments where they get snippy or slip up sometimes. The problem is that 1) for these particular characters, it's hard to believe they would slip up in nearly the exact same way they've slipped up in multiple times and this time in a far higher stakes scenario and 2) the way they slipped up wasn't entertaining and didn't tread any new ground that other episodes haven't done already, and haven't done better. I can accept a slip up that's similar even with a character that's already grown if something interesting is done with the idea - like you said, conflict is the bread and butter of a story - but in this case, I don't think that was actually accomplished.

Given the way the episode is rated, a good majority of those who watched it don't think so, either.

Actually, it's easy to believe they would slip up in the same way by being overly competitive because that's part of their characters. And didn't tread any new ground? I didn't know there was already an episode about AJ and Dash competing over who's better at teaching school children, which isn't a high stakes scenario. It was their own mistakes that put them in danger and it was the students who had to deal with the high stakes scenario. You say it's been done better already, but you don't show examples or explain how it was done better. Finally, "a good majority of people who watched it don't think so either"? Why even mention that? Popular opinion is not fact, and what people think of it here does not reflect how everyone views it.

[DuskUnicorn 10]

On 5/21/2018 at 1:44 AM, Justin_Case001 said:

Yeah.  For sure.  I actually have some headcanons about that.  So, I believe that seasons in Equestria work (or sometimes work, depending on what the pegasi do) like Game of Thrones.  I.e. sometimes seasons can last for years.  I believe that between Best Pet and Tanks for the Memories, they were in the long summer, which lasted for several years.  (But I don't remember if there was a snowy Hearth's Warming episode between there, so that might punch a hole in that theory.)

And then, on the other hoof, perhaps in Equestria, months are shorter, or maybe they have more months in a year than we do, so maybe Fluttershy's nine wins doesn't mark as much time passage as we think, or something like that.  But I'm sure the truth is just the visual gag like you said, and the writers probably didn't think too much into it.

All good ideas.  Myself I feel the years are fairly normal length relative to ours, or at least have some fixed schedule.  If recall in Winter Wrap Up they sing that spring was coming tomorrow, and was mentioned a couple of times about going to be late, and having been late in past years.  And we haven't seen the CWC or the Cake babies growing up any, so even with 8 show seasons for us it would make sense it hasn't been 8 years in Equestria.  And it's a very common cartoon thing that there isn't a lot of time advancement and characters don't get noticeably older.  Thus the whole 9 month thing kind of sticking out.

[Singe 2,109]

Mane 5 competing for a teacher of the month award when they aren't legit certified teachers, is like giving out an Oscar every month to the best actress that plays a teacher on the screen.

Cheerlie should be having her pictures on that wall.

[Ganondox 899]

18 hours ago, Nyactis Mewcis Catlum said:

You're right. It would be boring if they aren't petty or they don't have moments where they get snippy or slip up sometimes. The problem is that 1) for these particular characters, it's hard to believe they would slip up in nearly the exact same way they've slipped up in multiple times and this time in a far higher stakes scenario and 2) the way they slipped up wasn't entertaining and didn't tread any new ground that other episodes haven't done already, and haven't done better. I can accept a slip up that's similar even with a character that's already grown if something interesting is done with the idea - like you said, conflict is the bread and butter of a story - but in this case, I don't think that was actually accomplished.

Given the way the episode is rated, a good majority of those who watched it don't think so, either.

Certainly the Idiot Ball can be necessary for some plots, but the utter distaste that the fandom generally exhibits toward it is because of its utilization habitually within MLP: FiM, not necessarily because the Idiot Ball itself is inherently bad. In this case, the Idiot Ball was handed to characters who 1) did not learn their lesson, 2) don't really fit that particular Idiot Ball (this is especially the case for AJ), and 3) don't do anything interesting while they have it. To say simply that the issue people have with this episode is merely the fact that RD and AJ are OOC, even if that is the complaint most commonly communicated, does a disservice both to the episode and to the people who dislike it. Even if you don't agree with that reason, simplifying that reasoning to make it look more ridiculous doesn't make your argument look more credible, just fyi.

Response to 2 - To be honest, entertainment should be paramount over realism. The argument that it's "not realistic" is an argument that doesn't work in many contexts, and I would argue this is one of them. Also, it's not even a working argument here, anyway; it is entirely possible for someone to get over a vice once they recognized it is a vice and not just backslide, especially if it targets specific actions. For example, I used to name-call. Someone called me out for it. I immediately stopped name-calling, and haven't done so since. To give this blanket statement that it is absolutely impossible in a realistic setting to get over a vice is, in itself, an unrealistic expectation, and even potentially a dangerous one, depending on the behavior you're being dismissive toward. 

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that in all cases, it's unrealistic for someone to get over a problem they had or to stop doing a bad behavior when told no. It is NOT entertaining for a GOOD MAJORITY of people to see the hero struggle with the exact same problem in nearly the exact same way multiple times, and as I said before, entertainment IS paramount over realism; if realism must be sacrificed in order to make something more entertaining to watch, then it absolutely should be encouraged to be done; if sticking to realism was 100% the goal that MLP should prioritize, then we shouldn't have talking ponies to begin with. Also, saying that it removes any possibility for conflict seems creatively bankrupt to suggest. You really can't think of any way a conflict can be introduced without retreading the same ground the show has already gone through? Really? Especially when we have new characters, we have new developments, we have new relationships that have formed? If the only problem, the only problem, that RD and AJ can ever go through is to have their competition get out of hand, then that suggests these characters are incredibly flat. There's not any other problem that the two of them can have with their dynamic? Not one? There's nothing we can explore further with them? That's the issue with this retread and supporting this retread: you limit the amount of things that can be done by not challenging the writers to find something else to grapple onto with these characters. They go back to the same thing, over and over again. Perhaps you find this okay and entertaining, but given how often this complaint arises, that is not a popular opinion to have.

 

Lastly, and I don't have a big opinion piece for this, but just because a choice was intentional, doesn't mean it was a good choice.

Regarding the idiot ball, that's just your opinion. I actually do mostly agree with you, I'm just not personally bothered much because I put more emphasis on other things, but I've seen people disagree with your on every point. You may think I'm oversimplifying the argument, but when you look at the full scope of all the different qualities an episode could be rated on, it fits for the sorts of grievances many fans tend to have that I don't really care about. 

Regarding point 2, you completely misinterpreted what I said. I'm not saying that it's impossible for people to suddenly overcome habits, I'm saying it's unreasonable to assume they MUST have overcome them. If you look back at what I'd actually wrote, you'll realize I didn't actually say what you think I said, I made no blanket assumptions. The main irony with your response though is that the reason they acted that way was BECAUSE they were emphasizing entertainment over realism, it's just not the sort of entertainment that appeals to you, and it's not as unrealistic as people seem to think. 

" It is NOT entertaining for a GOOD MAJORITY of people to see the hero struggle with the exact same problem in nearly the exact same way multiple times"

[Citation Needed]. You're judging this based on an audience other than the show's intended audience. It might surprise, but children look for very different things than adult do, and this is specifically one of the areas they differ. Children like static characters because it's something reliable to fall back on, they like the consistency and reoccurring themes. It's funny, because you think I'm basing this all of my opinion of the episode, when I'm just trying to be objective (developmental psychology is something I've studied and I plan on studying on writing for children more as it's probably going to be important for my career), as I've said multiple times before I'm largely indifferent to this episode. 

"Also, saying that it removes any possibility for conflict seems creatively bankrupt to suggest. You really can't think of any way a conflict can be introduced without retreading the same ground the show has already gone through?" I'm saying if you paint with such broad strokes, because if you paint with such broad strokes there is only so many themes that can be explored. That's not conjecture, it's a basic principle of storytelling, there is only a handful stories that get retold time and time again, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's through the combination of repetition of nuance that the different stories have value, it's how people learn. The fact of the matter is, the conflict explored here is NOT the same one explored in FFW even though some elements were used. I've explained what these differences are numerous times, and I'm not going to repeat myself. 

"Especially when we have new characters, we have new developments, we have new relationships that have formed?" Not with the fandom's attitude. New characters are a GREAT way to revist old themes while letting old characters grow, but the fandom hates new characters, they want to focus time on the old ones they love. The new developments typically do NOTHING to develop themes, either status quo is maintained in terms of behavior or the characters become flat due to unrealistic expectations regarding character growth. New relationships have potential to go in new directions, but it's still the same characters in those relationships. As it is though the show tends to reuse the same relationships to exhaustion and I'd wish they'd mix things up some more. 

"If the only problem, the only problem, that RD and AJ can ever go through is to have their competition get out of hand, then that suggests these characters are incredibly flat." And this is just bad logic, this is just ONE episode so your reasoning doesn't work. No one is saying that it's the only aspect of their characters that can be drawn from, but it is AN aspect of their characters that can be drawn from. If the aspect isn't being drawn from their characters, then they would actually be OoC. Meanwhile, using something that's established puts them at risk for the criticism you're giving them now. Now, the best writing would build new things off from what was already established, but we don't always get that, and it's fine. Sure, they could have done a different episode was a different conflict that could have worked better (I think they should have, but I'm satisfied with what I got), but they decided to go with this one for some reason, and it worked well enough.

This episode wasn't great by any means, but it wasn't as horrendously bad as some people are making it out to be. Frankly it's not that much worse than the following two episodes that people have been praising to death, but I find to have clear narrative flaws, I'm just not bothering to comment on them because I found the episodes entertaining enough and I don't care enough to go on some rant. Only reason I keep commenting here is because people keep engaging. Is my opinion really so offensive?

  

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Ganondox

[Nyactis Mewcis Catlum 670]

20 hours ago, CloudMistDragon said:

Actually, it's easy to believe they would slip up in the same way by being overly competitive because that's part of their characters.

It's not for me. It's not because after "Wonderbolt Academy", it was pretty clear that Rainbow learned that pushing yourself to be better by integrity is paramount over being the best of the best. Lightning Dust wanted to be the best at the detriment of other ponies. Despite Rainbow clearly still being the competitive self she is in that episode (see: her disappointment at being wingpony), she was visibly uncomfortable with the way their competing (which she initially sucked up and agreed to do with Lightning so she could be the best there, by the way!) was hurting other ponies. The final straw came when it harmed ponies that were close to her, in which she outright volunteered to quit the Wonderbolts entirely.

As for AJ, she literally decried Rainbow for playing dirty in "Fall Weather Friends", and although I don't like playing the whole "element" game because yeah, it can be reductive, we have been shown repeatedly of her moral integrity that comes with her Element of Honesty, and it's a stretch to me that she would value competition over that integrity when that integrity is her greatest pride.

It might have been easy for me to believe in Season 1, but after seeing episodes that have similar moral dilemmas and seeing how the characters performed in those, it's strange seeing them behave this way here.

20 hours ago, CloudMistDragon said:

And didn't tread any new ground? I didn't know there was already an episode about AJ and Dash competing over who's better at teaching school children, which isn't a high stakes scenario. It was their own mistakes that put them in danger and it was the students who had to deal with the high stakes scenario.

That's a bit of a literal response. I mean to say that it shares story beats with other episodes that have used those story beats better. Their competition going out of hand and blinding them from what they should be doing/the more practical solution has already been done before; others have already mentioned the episode it was done in. Stubbornness in Applejack leading to her causing the problem has been done in multiple episodes. Rainbow putting others in danger for her selfish desires has happened before, too. (Granted, one of those is in an episode I don't see favorably, but the point still stands.) And the differences the episode does have are not in its favor. Putting a child in danger and receiving no comeuppance for it (other than Twilight scolding them, that is) is definitely going to leave a sick taste in people's mouths, not to mention goes against what "Wonderbolt Academy" suggested about Rainbow's integrity and Applejack's own repeatedly demonstrated concern for fillies (such as Scootaloo in "Sleepless in Ponyville"). In addition, and perhaps the greatest slight against it as far as differences are concerned: it's just not fun to watch. "Fall Weather Friends", which also focused on Rainbow and Applejack being too competitive to their detriment, had whacky hijinks that made it fun to watch, whereas Rainbow and Applejack are consistently arguing. This point was brought up within this thread.

If anything, if this episode was a perfect 1-to-1 retread of FWF, that would be a good thing. It'd certainly be better than what we got.

20 hours ago, CloudMistDragon said:

Finally, "a good majority of people who watched it don't think so either"? Why even mention that? Popular opinion is not fact, and what people think of it here does not reflect how everyone views it.

You're right, popularity doesn't reflect how good something is, but if a complaint is reiterated about something over and over, it does give that complaint a bit more weight than if just one person said it. I concede popular opinion is not fact. That being said, a repeated criticism likely has some merit.

 

Ganondox, I'm not ignoring you. But I really don't feel like responding to your post either. When I saw you tell me what I think instead of asking me what I think, when you don't know what I think, all civility and all attempts to get you to understand flew out the window. I'll admit this straight up: I don't have the fortitude, the strength of character to respond to someone who speaks for me like that. It is extremely frustrating and tiresome for me to read, let alone even think of responding to. And I don't want to upset myself and spend hours trying to be civil to someone who can't respect me enough not to speak for me. Someone else will have to respond to you. I'm sorry I can't come up with anything better.

But for the record, no, I was not under the impression you liked the episode. I read what you said about it in the original post.

[Misty Shadow 7,084]

On 5/27/2018 at 11:28 PM, Nyactis Mewcis Catlum said:

It's not for me. It's not because after "Wonderbolt Academy", it was pretty clear that Rainbow learned that pushing yourself to be better by integrity is paramount over being the best of the best. Lightning Dust wanted to be the best at the detriment of other ponies. Despite Rainbow clearly still being the competitive self she is in that episode (see: her disappointment at being wingpony), she was visibly uncomfortable with the way their competing (which she initially sucked up and agreed to do with Lightning so she could be the best there, by the way!) was hurting other ponies. The final straw came when it harmed ponies that were close to her, in which she outright volunteered to quit the Wonderbolts entirely.

Rainbow Dash didn't believe her behavior was a detriment to others though, she genuinely thought her way was better and consistently tried to prove it. There was only one time in the episode where Rainbow Dash actually "put the students in harm's way", which was when they were trying to set the record in the canoe by going down a path with bite-acudas. There was a similar gag (as in it's just a joke that does not intend to imply that Rainbow actually has no regard for others) in May the Best Pet Win! with Rainbow wanting animals to race through a dangerous obstacle course filled with Quarray Eels that could eat them. It's not that Rainbow didn't care about them getting hurt, she's just a clear believer in "no pain, no gain", "no risk, no reward" and expects the same out of others. Wonderbolts Academy was different, because in that case, she and Lightning were being disrespectful to their teammates and putting innocent bystanders at risk. 

On 5/27/2018 at 11:28 PM, Nyactis Mewcis Catlum said:

That's a bit of a literal response. I mean to say that it shares story beats with other episodes that have used those story beats better. Their competition going out of hand and blinding them from what they should be doing/the more practical solution has already been done before; others have already mentioned the episode it was done in. Stubbornness in Applejack leading to her causing the problem has been done in multiple episodes. Rainbow putting others in danger for her selfish desires has happened before, too. (Granted, one of those is in an episode I don't see favorably, but the point still stands.) And the differences the episode does have are not in its favor. Putting a child in danger and receiving no comeuppance for it (other than Twilight scolding them, that is) is definitely going to leave a sick taste in people's mouths, not to mention goes against what "Wonderbolt Academy" suggested about Rainbow's integrity and Applejack's own repeatedly demonstrated concern for fillies (such as Scootaloo in "Sleepless in Ponyville"). In addition, and perhaps the greatest slight against it as far as differences are concerned: it's just not fun to watch. "Fall Weather Friends", which also focused on Rainbow and Applejack being too competitive to their detriment, had whacky hijinks that made it fun to watch, whereas Rainbow and Applejack are consistently arguing. This point was brought up within this thread.

Thank you for using examples this time, and yes, you are right about it sharing similar story beats with other episodes. That's very standard for cartoons though. Film is an art that likes to repeat itself, and the same is true for animation. Every show has things that are inevitably going to be repetitive. As for "putting a child in danger" and "receiving no comeuppance for it", I'm afraid both of those statements are false, and it's already been explained why in this thread. For the first one, RD and AJ had no way to know that Yona's life jacket would get caught on a stick and ripped. That was completely unprecedented. Yes, Yona made it clear she was uncomfortable, but everyone encouraged her to come along on the canoe regardless. For no comeuppance, if almost getting eaten alive isn't comeuppance in your eyes, I have no idea what else to say. Same with wacky hijinks. Suggestions like this make me wonder if you just watched the episode in clips rather than sitting down and watching it in full because there are consistent instances of cartoonish destruction, peril, and over-the-top reactions to AJ and Rainbow's behavior from the students throughout. AJ's behavior contradicting her repeated concern for fillies would be a good point...if not for the fact that The Young Six is primarily made up of teenagers and creatures of different species. Not to mention that her way of leading the students was, in a way, coddling them. 

On 5/27/2018 at 11:28 PM, Nyactis Mewcis Catlum said:

If anything, if this episode was a perfect 1-to-1 retread of FWF, that would be a good thing. It'd certainly be better than what we got.

Yet you were just calling the episode out for sharing similar story beats. And no, it would not be a good thing. I know this is part-joke, but if they actually made this episode exactly like Fall Weather Friends, it would be far more panned than it already is because not only is everything about FWF outdated now, this episode would also then have no reason to be made. Even if this episode did not entertain you, which is fine, you must at least acknowledge that it did its job of progressing the show's current overarching plot and displaying the potential of The Young Six. It at least added something new to the show.

On 5/27/2018 at 11:28 PM, Nyactis Mewcis Catlum said:

You're right, popularity doesn't reflect how good something is, but if a complaint is reiterated about something over and over, it does give that complaint a bit more weight than if just one person said it. I concede popular opinion is not fact. That being said, a repeated criticism likely has some merit.

Thank you for your concession. And yes, a repeated criticism generally has some merit. Thus my role to point out what does not have merit so that others are not misled. I concede your right to display distaste for this episode for reasons I disagree with, but when I see dissension that is not aligned with the facts, I feel the call to point it out even if most side with the dissenters. I'm not blind to this episode's shortcomings, I just always like to do my best to prevent the spread of misleading information.

Edited May 30, 2018 by CloudMistDragon

[JCKane 345]

I'll be honest, It's still taking some getting used to with them being teachers.  Seriously, it's like they're the mane characters... yet in supporting roles... if that even makes sense   And I agree with a comment I read already.  They already dealt with their competitive nature and it feels so strange they randomly just got it back without too much build for it.  I guess that's almost one of the things you can almost see, sometimes they got to add additional circumstances so they can reUse an old 'issue' that they learned already... which again, no one's perfect, and we tend to make the same mistakes, but still felt like we should of seen a bit more of this instead of a "open with them randomly going back Super competitive"... almost feel like the reward wasn't even something that they should of coveted that much.  I mean seriously... there's not been enough build of them as teachers for it tbh.  Like we had what, the first two episodes... and now this one.  Right?  I mean yeah they mentioned their obligations to the school, but this is like the 3rd episode that actual feature them in the role.

Anyways, I do like the attitude of both Twilight and the students.  Not just getting confused for a bit but then getting down right irritated by it.  Seriously, I've seen similar SLs in other series where said person they're teaching will just remain confused or just not pay attention or something.  So I liked that...  So i'll give it more a 'meh'.

EDIT: Also wanted to point out.  The "Students think they pretended they were fighting to help teach them" thing, I actually wish WAS the truth.  It would of helped the episode out a bit and explained the 'back to before' issue they had. And it would of added a nice twist to the ending.

Edited May 29, 2018 by JCKane

[Allen 1,371]

At the Friendship field trip, they were supposed to do as a teamwork to get things right! They were in such of disarray by making this argument in lack of agreement but that's not worth it that way for them. That part when both Applejack and Rainbow Dash build a bridge to go across the ravine, Applejack build it in vines while Rainbow Dash build it in tree branches, but it does not work that way which they both tangled up together before falling to danger in the water, I'm shocked about this!  But with the help from the School of Friendship students, Ocellus saved them by scaring those bite-acudas/piranhas away and Gallas and Silverstream rescued tangled ponies with a lift to safety! This was a rescue and they're impressed of how they do as a teamwork that way! That friendship field trip was not bad for them by that rescue.  Back at the School of Friendship, their students learned their lesson in their past accidents they've done. And lastly before fading out, both Applejack and Rainbow Dash make another argument to know who's fault was that but that's all for that argument for now.

So this episode, not bad but it's good. 

[cuteycindyhoney 13,283]

I thought the episode had promise, but tossed it away. Rainbow and Applejack apparently slipped back to their over the top competitive nonsense that they should have outgrown by now. They risked the student's lives trying to one up each other as "Teacher of the month". I thought it a rather strained episode because of that.  Also, one key thing bothered me. How come Fluttershy went from top model, to someone that can't take a good picture?

[Senko 459]

Could have been a bit better if Dash and Applejack had genuinely been acting to make the students step up rather than falling back into established competititve hobbits they put it aside when they wanted Fluttershy and Pinky to compete in Buckball afterall. I did like Pinky's response to who'd be a better teache for the fieldtrip "Rarity, Fluttershy, Me, This potted plant."

Also 9 teacher of hte month pictures does this mean each season has been 1-2 years in length timeline wise so the mane 6 are now 15 years older than when the show started?

[Buttonmash1973 1,024]

This is my guilty pleasure

[Dynamo Pad 10,777]

I really liked how Fluttershy got the multiple teacher of the month award. It reminded me of Spongebob getting multiple employee of the month award. That, and Fluttershy had a lot of photo's on the wall like Spongebob does. I wonder if that was a reference or not, but it was still pretty funny and cool. I liked how Pinkie got Applejack and Rainbow when they were talking about working like a team. It was pretty funny and it was out of nowhere. I have to admit the competitiveness between Rainbow and Applejack was out of nowhere, as well. They have competed a lot in the past and this episode reminded me a bit of the episode, "Fall Weather Friends." It just felt odd that we see Rainbow and Applejack competing after such a long time. It would make sense if they competed every now and again, but I think the last time they competed was in "Castle Mania." I like how we also get to see the Student 6 being involved throughout the episode. It was also interesting getting to know the students a little more, especially when it came to fears and such. I could understand and agree with how Twilight and the students were feeling irritated with how Rainbow and Applejack were acting on the field trip. I also liked how the students were able to use teamwork to save their teachers. The comedy was pretty funny and I thought the moral was pretty okay. I do hope we get to see more class activities and see more interactions with the student 6. 

[Senko 459]

1 hour ago, Dynamo Pad said:

I really liked how Fluttershy got the multiple teacher of the month award. It reminded me of Spongebob getting multiple employee of the month award. That, and Fluttershy had a lot of photo's on the wall like Spongebob does. I wonder if that was a reference or not, but it was still pretty funny and cool. I liked how Pinkie got Applejack and Rainbow when they were talking about working like a team. It was pretty funny and it was out of nowhere. I have to admit the competitiveness between Rainbow and Applejack was out of nowhere, as well. They have competed a lot in the past and this episode reminded me a bit of the episode, "Fall Weather Friends." It just felt odd that we see Rainbow and Applejack competing after such a long time. It would make sense if they competed every now and again, but I think the last time they competed was in "Castle Mania." I like how we also get to see the Student 6 being involved throughout the episode. It was also interesting getting to know the students a little more, especially when it came to fears and such. I could understand and agree with how Twilight and the students were feeling irritated with how Rainbow and Applejack were acting on the field trip. I also liked how the students were able to use teamwork to save their teachers. The comedy was pretty funny and I thought the moral was pretty okay. I do hope we get to see more class activities and see more interactions with the student 6. 

To be fair this one was less of a "I must prove I am better" and more of a "I have to beat her to win that teacher of the month award instead of Fluttershy." Its just that while it had a different cause it still fed into bad habbits. I agree the . . .

"Who'd make a better partner?"
"Rarity, me, this potted plant."

From Pinky was amusing.

[DubWolf 16,613]

That was painful to watch  ;like how the whole field trip was either AJ and Dash arguing or agreeing OBSESSIVELY on each other in an awkward stalemate. How was that field trip any good really, aside from the student 6 using the two pones' mishaps as opportunities to work together  ?

Ocellus is best Biteacuda  

Edited July 18, 2018 by Totally Not Wolf

[Senko 459]

3 minutes ago, Totally Not Wolf said:

That was painful to watch  ;like how the whole field trip was either AJ and Dash arguing or agreeing OBSESSIVELY on each other in an awkward stalemate. How was that field trip any good really, aside from the student 6 using the two pones' mishaps as opportunities to work together  ?

Ocellus is best Biteacuda  

While I agree he is cute that scene does add to my wondering how any pony reaches adulthood between the manticores, biteacuda, ursa's, hydra's, flyders and who know's what else is lurking in the woods, waters and air of their world.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Senko

[bigbertha 410]

This is my biggest guilty pleasure of the series. I loved how when Yona was drowning, Applejack and Rainbow Dash just watched while doing nothing! They were made into such idiots that I had to laugh.

Score: -9/10

Edited July 22, 2018 by bigbertha

[CastletonSnob 3,025]

I know I'm really late, but I finally watched this episode.

 

It might just be me, but the dialogue in NCC felt kind of off.

[Varrack 1,080]

This was interesting. RD and AJ were in disagreement the whole time -- even after the resolution. I don't think I've seen an episode yet where something was both the conflict and the resolution. In a way, it still seems unresolved, but I guess disagreeing/being in competition isn't a bad thing, so I'm pretty satisfied with this ep. 

[MLPFanatic34 3,234]

This wasn't a bad episode, but it wasn't my favorite Applejack and Rainbow Dash episode, their behavior at times came off as annoying and rather loud, I did enjoy the overall moral and seeing the Young Six interact with their professors and try to help Rainbow Dash and AJ out. 8/10 episode.

[TheAnimationFanatic 3,543]

On 10/1/2018 at 9:56 PM, MLPFanatic34 said:

This wasn't a bad episode, but it wasn't my favorite Applejack and Rainbow Dash episode, their behavior at times came off as annoying and rather loud, I did enjoy the overall moral and seeing the Young Six interact with their professors and try to help Rainbow Dash and AJ out. 8/10 episode.

I wish I could enjoy this episode as much as you did. 

For me, this is the worst episode of Season 8 (Yes, worse than "Yakity Sax"). It feels like "Fall-Weather Friends",  if you removed everything that made the episode work.

The jokes aren't funny, the characterizations are terrible, and the bickering between the two became old fast. It's made even worse by the fact that even after the students nearly DROWN, they still can't help but compete with each other. And I also don't buy the whole "They taught us by showing how to not work together" thing at the end.

The only thing keeping this from being completely awful is the presence of the students.

Overall,  "Non-Compete Clause" is a bad episode no matter how you spin it.

It isn't misguided/offensively bad like "Newbie Dash", "28 Pranks Later", or "Spike At Your Service." But it is aggressively mediocre/stupid bad like "The Cart Before The Ponies", "Honest Apple", and "Princess Spike".

3/10.