What is your opinion on gender neutral parenting?

[Splashee 28,537]

Parents are allowed to decide what their kids will become as grown ups. They have the full authority.

 

But... they will not manage to change who that kid will be, or what that kid will like. Individuality

[The Kaeya Simp 13,953]

5 minutes ago, Princess of Luck 🍀⚡🔥 said:

Girls and Boys can decide themselves how they want to dress up as 

exactly!
plus, then you don't need to deal with all of your clothes giving you dysphoria if you're trans that way

[Olly 1,008]

When I was little I had a female friend who would dress me up in dresses and makeup etc. 

Actually I think it can be healthy for girls to explore their masculine side and boys to explore their feminine side as children. 

[Octavia Heartstrings 28,397]

I think it's good. It's best to avoid trapping your children in restrictive gender roles.

[Fluttershyfan94 5,737]

I don't know if my parents had done that I'd be trans and I'm still not sure if I'm actually trans so yeah. Sometimes parents should just let their children so themselves.

[Lucky Bolt 34,914]

I have mixed thoughts on it, honestly. 

[Stardust 640]

Kids should be allowed to play with any toys and dress how they like. Kids have the free choice to do so. Usually when girls play with boys toys it's seen as less of an issue. But there is nothing wrong with a boy playing with girls toys nor does it even mean they are gay (which there is nothing wrong with be proud). Especially the littlest kids you can't even tell their sex often what it is so I doubt the risk is there of being bullied much.

In fact there have been attempts in the past for toys to become gender neutral. At one point things like generic cooking and diy kits were being sold. But toy makers thought it was more profitable to divide toys and that's where the push came from.

As  a kid I always disliked all the princessy stuff never understood why someone would want to be weak and stuck in a castle waiting for a prince to come xP So I turned to other media like animal tales and cartoons, adventure games and that.

Edited June 1, 2020 by flurry

[Rainbow Cloud 16,158]

I don't think it's a good idea, most children tend to naturally gravitate towards traditional gender roles so raising them in a way as though gender doesn't exist is only likely to cause harm to their well being and mental health if they become the targets of bullies. If they like things outside of their traditional gender roles that's fine but acting as though gender doesn't exist isn't a good idea.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Rainbow Cloud
Opinion has softened since then but wished to clarify better what I meant at the time.

[Pentium100 2,056]

On 6/1/2020 at 5:10 PM, Rainbow Cloud 🌈 said:

I don't think it's a good idea, most children tend to naturally gravitate towards traditional gender roles so raising them in a way pretending gender doesn't exist is only likely to cause harm to their well being and will likely cause mental health problems in their future. If they like things outside of their traditional gender roles that's fine but pretending that gender doesn't exist isn't a good idea.

I agree with this. Most (certainly not all) children will gravitate toward their gender roles, it is biological (the gender roles are essentially in our DNA) in addition to culture (girls play with other girls and if most girls play with dolls, then nobody will want to play with the girl who likes to play with toy guns, but that girl may also not quite fit in with the boys).

If the child deviates from the gender role they should not be forced back to it, but forcing someone away from it is just as bad, maybe worse. There should be little force used (well, if the child is at risk of becoming a criminal, addict or jobless/homeless, then yes, they should be strongly encouraged to change, but someone who is not at risk of that should not be forced into a mold)..

[TotallyNotNyx 15,563]

4 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

I agree with this. Most (certainly not all) children will gravitate toward their gender roles, it is biological (the gender roles are essentially in our DNA) in addition to culture (girls play with other girls and if most girls play with dolls, then nobody will want to play with the girl who likes to play with toy guns, but that girl may also not quite fit in with the boys).

If the child deviates from the gender role they should not be forced back to it, but forcing someone away from it is just as bad, maybe worse. There should be little force used (well, if the child is at risk of becoming a criminal, addict or jobless/homeless, then yes, they should be strongly encouraged to change, but someone who is not at risk of that should not be forced into a mold)..

I mean that’s the problem with society, the “need to fit in”. We should be celebrating people’s differences, and should not have the girls who play with guns be like social outcasts just because she likes playing with a different toy.

[Jesse Terrence 2,963]

I was gonna make a looooong post on this, but then I just came to realize it doesn't matter.

People is entitled to do whatever they want and whine when shit hits the fan.

[Evil Pink One 12,954]

No ones forcing you to be in the mold....just prepare yourself for the consequence.

[CoconutCake 360]

It's not like the parents are forcing anything. The key word is "neutral."
Once the child becomes old enough to decide what they want to pursue, what's wrong with that? I'm all for open-mindedness.
It's when the parents start forcing ideas and all that is when it becomes a problem.

[Pentium100 2,056]

7 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Now...how does the girl who likes to play with toy guns knows she is a girl?

"plug" vs "socket"

7 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

When nobody told her what that is or how it is defined.

there are well-established definitions.

7 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Edit: Or how do others even know?

Now, that's a bit different. However, unless the gun-loving girl also has other interests that mostly align with boys, she will be seen as different. Not to mention there being some difference in a way she takes a leak on a wall.

For the majority of cases, people do more-or-less align with the gender roles. Those that don't, still may have more in common with the gender role than differences. Very few will be complete exceptions.

1 hour ago, CoconutCake said:

It's not like the parents are forcing anything. The key word is "neutral."

You can't really be neutral here as the parents will have to provide some answers for the kid. Again, as long as there is no force involved it's OK to try to steer the kid towards some goal. Even without the gender roles, I think it is good to teach the kid to take over the profession of their parents but the kid should still be allowed to refuse and find something else interesting and worth learning.

Also, the parents have to figure out how to dress their child and what toys to buy when the child is very small. Going with the gender role is a pretty good guess most of the time. As long as they comply seeing that the child is actually interested in different toys etc.

A gentle "push" towards the role is OK, force isn't.

[Splashee 28,537]

Is it neutral parenting if a father wants his daughter to become a soccer player (in the sense that UK parents push their kids to be the next soccer star)?

 

Or must parents have both sons and daughters, and make them play with opposite things (boy gets the girl's toys, and girl get the boy's toys) to make it neutral?

[Pucksterv 4,507]

Gender neutral parenting is "we will not reveal the babies gender or address them as him or her." I get where these ideas come from. Parents want to give their children the freedom to choose for themselves, I understand this. Problem is here, Gender is not equal to sex. Gender is something someone decides themselves. Sex is something biological. It is a fact, you cannot deny it. Someone is born as a boy or girl. There is nothing wrong with addressing your child as the sex they were born with. It becomes a problem, when you enforce the stereotypes and gender roles that supposedly belong to this sex and deny them the right to express themselves in anyway that does not fit the norm. When your child is exploring their gender, you should give them the freedom to do so. Part of a child's journey, is to explore their own identity which includes their gender as well. If they decide what gender they associate with, it is your duty as parent to support your child in this decision and address them with the respected pronouns.

So yeah, parents shouldn't be enforcing ideas about sex and gender. But they shouldn't fall into the other side of extreme either. There is nothing wrong with saying that you shouldn't force stereotypes/roles and you let your child be who they want to be. If this what people mean with gender neutral parenting, I am all for it. But going into the extremes by saying, this child is neither a boy or a girl, as example Grimes was trying to do with their newborn son, could just as well be damaging to a child. Especially when today's society isn't exactly accepting to minority groups. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Pucksterv

[Rebel the Wolfgirl 5,585]

I fully support it, if that's what the parents (and the kids) want.

[Pentium100 2,056]

2 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Yes, and how are the kids that child is playing with do know what does they got? Stripping down their pants? Do you really see that commonly happening?

they as in singular.

Did you read my entire post?

15 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

22 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Edit: Or how do others even know?

Now, that's a bit different. However, unless the gun-loving girl also has other interests that mostly align with boys, she will be seen as different. Not to mention there being some difference in a way she takes a leak on a wall.

For the majority of cases, people do more-or-less align with the gender roles. Those that don't, still may have more in common with the gender role than differences. Very few will be complete exceptions.

It would be very rare if a girl got almost exactly the same interests as a boy (compared to, say, having mostly-girly interests AND also liking guns). So, in most of cases she would still be somewhat different in behavior. When she gets older, the differences will become visible as well. 

Another way to find out is to just ask. Also, at least in my country, names for men and women are different.

You know, thinking about a "girl who behaves like a boy" made me think about George from "The Famous Five" series of books. Still, everyone knew she was a girl, even though she behaved like a boy to the point of asking people to call her by the male version of her name.

 

What I do not understand is why do you want to create confusion with this. It looks to me like, for you, there are only two sets of behavior and interests - "boy" and "girl" and a person should be labeled by the behavior (and then what, not allowed to have different interests?). I, on the other hand, think that the person should be labeled by their body, but allowed to have any interests or behavior they want, even if it does not fall strictly to one of the two sets.

[Pentium100 2,056]

Just now, China (100% NOT China) said:

What if not, and that person cannot give you an answer, and/or is not willing to regarding that?

"Huh? Some weirdo. Doesn't even know if he's a boy or girl. Stupid maybe?". That would probably have been my reaction when I was a kid. 

1 minute ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

It is mostly about the expectations of people towards someone.

Did you never see a person, let's say a girl, and then think Oh, she probably likes this or that? I know I have.

So? And I would be right most of the time. 

Just like if I saw a black or Asian person in my country, I would assume he is a foreigner (either a tourist if I am at a tourist spot or actually living here), probably cannot speak my language very well, so if I need to ask him something I should be prepared to switch to English. And I would be right most of the time. 

Still, if you say you are a man, that gives me information about your body, not your interests. If we are talking already, then I will probably just ask about your interests if I need to.

For example, you can make the initial assumption that I like watching basketball based on the fact that I am a man who lives in Lithuania. I do not think it is wrong for you to do so, after all, your assumption would be correct most of the time. It would not be correct for me though, because I do not really like watching sports. Yet, that does not make me a woman or different nationality. It just makes me someone who is not completely stereotypical. 

Human brains are very good at recognizing patterns (even when there are none, that's how you get superstitions) and human interests depending on sex is a very real pattern, just that there are exceptions. I do not see anything wrong with that.

[Pentium100 2,056]

Just now, China (100% NOT China) said:

And that reaction is depending on what you were taught.

Also because it would be an oddity. For one, the name of such a kid has to be weird already to not sound like a mans name or a womans name. And if there was a kid with a name like that AND looking ambiguously then they would be asked "so, are you a boy or a girl?". A refusal to answer would look really weird and "I don't know" would look stupid. 

3 minutes ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

We mostly look at hair, face and maybe clothes, and maybe on...assets, but we are certainly not looking whether someone has a wiener.

Also, name and voice. In my country names (both given and family names) indicate gender and the family name of a woman usually indicates if she is married. 

6 minutes ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

So you can't say we decide whether someone is a man or woman by that person's genitals - far from it.

No, we don't. However, that's what the other clues (name, voice, hair, clothes) indicate. 

8 minutes ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Yes, but that IS given by expectations. If a man is absolutely shaved, wearing a dress, a pink bow and rosa colors, would you be able to identify him as a man?

And what percentage of men dress like that? So, I would make a mistake in that case, well, until I heard his voice. I still would be right most of the time.

A man can dress how he wants, but he would still be a man, because a man is someone with XY chromosomes, no matter the clothes or behavior. 

11 minutes ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Yes, and that's utmost important to be aware of as it is dangerous as well. Sometimes, these patterns also don't reflect reality, either.

What might have been a pattern can quickly warp into pressure to fit into that very pattern.

However, it is still extremely useful. The pressure is wrong, but the pattern is still useful.

[Pentium100 2,056]

5 minutes ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

If you say yes - what if he does not have a banana? Is he stopping being a man the second you open the zipper?

Does not "stop being" - never was.

Imagine this as an example - let's say I build a car that looks exactly like a Tesla, but has a gasoline engine. If you see it in a parking lot you might assume that it IS a Tesla and, consequently, electric. However, if I then opened the hood and you saw the gasoline engine, you would realize that you made a mistake in your initial assumption. However, the car did not "stop being electric" when you saw the engine, it never was electric in the first place.

11 minutes ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

You are mixing - and this IS hard to distinguish if not being trained - sex and gender. The question that to be raised is: What is a man? Is it someone being of that sex - or of that gender?

In that case "gender" does not exist for me. Men and women can act and dress however they want, but, just like with the car example above, it does not change who they are.

[Pentium100 2,056]

4 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

This conflict is what I am seeing maybe causing both a let of tension as well as misunderstanding regularly. I think until you are acknowledging that both terms exist and can mean different things, there isn't much use in this debate at all.

Both translate to the same word in my native language, so I kind-of use them interchangeably.

To clarify - To me, "man" or "woman" describe the body. That's it. If a man wants to act like a woman, he will be a "man acting like a woman", but not a "woman". However, I do not see a problem with a man acting like a woman.

4 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

(A few) People are mad because what they got between their legs as their sex is dictating them who to be as the gender - as in socially. I believe this is among the most single huge issue trans* people face.

IMO, you can act however you want, just know that if you say that you are a man, then I'll assume "XY chomosomes, is supposed to have a banana, goes to a changing room with men" irrespective of how you act.

4 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Was passing as one before.

If I paint myself black (and let's say you could actually mistake me for a black person from a distance), would that change my race? I don't think so.

Or (going back to the car example) - if my car looks like a Tesla, does it mean my car is electric, even though it actually has a gasoline engine? You can make a mistake when looking at it.

I guess someone could say that he is  "a man, but a social-woman" to make the distinction, but I have one small problem with this - it supports the social "gender behaviors", like, I don't know, uniforms we all have to wear or something. Essentially you can only behave like "most men" or like "most women", you have to call yourself by your behavior and you cannot behave somewhere in the middle. Let's say a "biological woman" usually behaves like most men - is really interested in things, is disagreeable and quite aggressive, but at the same time loves making herself look pretty and prefers skirts instead of pants. In my opinion, she is still a woman, a somewhat unusual one though, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As I understand, according to you she would have to choose to stay as a woman (and drop the men-like behaviors) or become a man (and drop the women-like behaviors) or invent some new word to describe herself. Is my understanding correct?

 

The more I think about it, my car analogy looks a bit inaccurate - electric cars and normal cars do not look that different. But I think I have a better analogy, with radios. Let's say we classify all radios as either tube-based or transistor-based. Then there naturally are 4 kinds of radios:

1.I have an old radio. It looks the part and has vacuum tube electronics in it. Anyone looking at it will identify it as a "tube radio" and would be correct. 
2.I have another radio that looks modern and is actually transistor based. Anyone looking at it would think it is transistor-based and would be correct. 
3.Now, I can make another radio that looks just like the old one, but has modern electronics in it. Anyone looking at it will think it's a tube radio, until they open the back cover and see transistors. It does not "stop being" a tube radio - it never was, it's just that people looking at it made wrong assumptions.
4.I can also make a radio that looks modern, but has tubes in it. Again, people looking at it could be mistaken, but that does not make the radio any more transistor-based.

A trans-person (or a trans-radio in this example, I guess) IMO, would be taking a radio from #1 or #2 and replacing the electronics making the radio #3 or #4. The difference here is that the radio started out as one type, but then was changed into another type.

[Splashee 28,537]

7 hours ago, China (100% NOT China) said:

Again, if you are not making any difference between sex and gender then a debate has barely sense at all - especially given this very specific topic title.

Heh, only this is not a debate forum

 

I don't have an opinion about how to raise kids, because I was raised pretty badly 50% of the time.

[JonasDarkmane 19,777]

It is idiotic. Gender neutral parenting sound like a great way of setting up your child for future suicide. 

No, raise your kid according to your values, but also according to societal standards. Being a post-modernist isn't cool or radical, nor is it beneficial for your child, it just simply is stupid~ 

[Here No Longer 5,270]

I don't care how anyone parents their child as long as it does no harm. Which in this case I really see no harm in this whatsoever because, frankly, I'm not sexist. That's really what I would see most complaints coming down to. Although one valid complaint for this strategy does exist, being the possibility that parenting a child to be themselves will get them bullied. But frankly that's not on the parents as much as it is on the bullies for being sexist pricks.~

 

I honestly see a lot of harm in gender roles as they are defined by society on the whole. Not only for people like myself who don't identify with either sex, but also the norms pretty much encourage belittling people for being themselves. I would actually say maybe not gender-neutral parenting, but a gender neutral mindset from the outside would actually be beneficial not only for kids with parents who parent them in a way that isn't gender-dependent, but the way I see it for everyone else as well.