Was the Confederate Flag ban unnecessary?

[Ganondox 899]

25 minutes ago, Gestum said:

The only ban (other than in schools and on private property) I could find was that in California state agencies aren't allowed to display/sell items bearing the flag. 

 

I think people should have the right to fly it on their own private property (if they want to broadcast themselves as hateful people that's their choice), but it has no business being displayed by an public agency. You don't fly the flags of traitors from your state offices. California state agencies better not being selling any such thing. 

[Olly 1,008]

20 hours ago, Yamet said:

The flag represents what the confederacy fought for. 

Slavery? 

not making a very strong case here... here's my opinion in an nutshell:

24 minutes ago, Denim&Venom said:

I do see the issue of broadcasting such a symbol. School, businesses, private property, they don't want that stigma. You can display that on your own private property as much as you want. Part of freedom of expression that this country loves to protect. But when you have customers and a reputation, such actions have consequences. 

in sum, what you do in your own space is nobody's business. However, what you do/show around others is. 

[Denim&Venöm 16,461]

1 minute ago, Olly said:

Slavery? 

not making a very strong case here... here's my opinion in an nutshell:

in sum, what you do in your own space is nobody's business. However, what you do/show around others is. 

Pretty much. You have a right to display, they have a right to react. 

[Gestum 2,493]

14 minutes ago, Olly said:

Slavery? 

I'm pretty sure that Yamet shares that opinion considering that he said :

20 hours ago, Yamet said:

The flag represents what the confederacy fought for. But at the end of the end of the day, that boils down to one group of people having the right to own others based on the colour of their skin. Which is a fairly racist idea if you ask me. 

 

[Olly 1,008]

4 minutes ago, Gestum said:

I'm pretty sure that Yamet shares that opinion considering that he said :

Is there a case for keeping something because of what it represents at all

[aoEAF2FBvC0MIo2Q 3,671]

The Confederate Flag is as unrelated to slavery as the much as the hammer and sickle are unrelated to communism. To deny that the Confederate flag stands for slavery based on race is to deny its actual heritage. People born today don't get to choose which part of their history they get to embrace and ignore, so just own it already.

Besides, cherry-picking one's history just so one could feel a sense of pride for some heritage they had no hand is shaping is just utterly pathetic. Just what kind of person is so utterly devoid of any self-worth that they seek to define their self-worth by the work, struggle and sacrifice of their fellow countrymen -- alive or dead? The more I elaborate, the cringier it sounds LOL
Just how low does an individual have to sink that they have can only define their self-worth by some heritage they themselves didn't do any work to earn?

Though the more generous possibility is that people aren't really proud in the actual definition of the word but just attached to this heritage -- much like how children are attached to their parents, siblings, etc. Maybe these people are just confusing attachment with pride. That makes so much more sense.

I don't see anything wrong with being attached to one's history, culture, etc. Cherry-picking one's history just to guard that attachment, though? Still pathetic -- just not as much as taking pride in it but still pathetic.

Was the banning of the flag excessive? Yeah. What I think should have happened is that everyone be honest and clear on what the Confederacy was and that it was an attempt at keeping slavery in the south. Having a clear understanding of what's behind the flag can help to create proper guidelines for its use so as to avoid any misunderstandings.

[Gestum 2,493]

6 minutes ago, Olly said:

Is there a case for keeping something because of what it represents at all

Yamet didn't say that we should keep the flag. He just said that it represented what the south fought for, wich was slavery. In other words he basically said that the flag represents slavery.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

40 minutes ago, Olly said:

Slavery? 

not making a very strong case here... 

I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say was that the flag represents slavery and the idea of white supremacy and therefore the ban wasn't unnecessary. 

[Olly 1,008]

18 minutes ago, Yamet said:

I think you missed my point. What I was trying to say was that the flag represents slavery and the idea of white supremacy and therefore the ban wasn't unnecessary. 

sorry I was expecting the opposite  

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Ganondox said:

People completely misunderstand what she is saying here because they frankly aren't smart enough to listen to the whole thing, keep track of her argument, and actually understand it, and instead they decide to take offense.

Oh thank you so much for trying to defend Anita. First of all, Anita has been caught NUMEROUS times completely ignoring counter arguments. AKA: she never actually makes an argument because she never defends her points. I've listened to tons of her arguments and they often use logical fallacies and poor tactics to fool people into siding with her, but she is incapable of actually backing up her points.

She also is uninformed on the things she discusses. She admitted a few years ago that she did not play video games growing up and then later claimed she grew up with games and experienced this "sexist culture". She was then caught stealing game footage from other people showing she couldn't even be bothered to play the games herself.

She also got up and criticized Fallout 4 and Doom for the amount of violence but was shown in a photoshoot with Fallout New Vegas, Fallout 3 and Doom 3 all in her game collection.

If you want me to show you how many ways Anita has been proven wrong I will gladly do so when I get home but Anita is a flat out liar, plain and simple. To claim people are "not smart enough" because they see her standpoints as offensive and ridiculous is living in delusion.

14 hours ago, Ganondox said:

Anyway, Anita’s comment has NOTHING to do with the Confederate Flag.

The point was that someone asked why we should allow something that was DEEMED offensive and I posted Anita as an example of how people are deeming EVERYTHING offensive and the people who claim to be the authority on what's offensive are hypocrites and use false information to push their opinions. In other words I am saying: who gets to decide? Because the people currently deciding are lost in the head.

[thepissman 76]

As a southerner, I’m going to say yes. To a lot of people over here, the flag represents heritage. Personally I’m not a big fan of the flag, I feel indifferent towards it, but a lot of people close to me feel otherwise. 

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

Yes. In fact, the ban wasn't just unnecessary. It was dangerous.

This isn't about celebrating the Confederacy or racism. History is an important part of our education. Even the most detestable symbols from centuries past have to be preserved. Otherwise, how are people supposed to learn about the Confederacy if our government wants us to pretend it never existed? I'm not exaggerating. Civil war-based movies and video games have been pulled from store shelves just for containing images of that flag. That's the most intellectually dishonest thing you can write into law. And this is exactly why crimes against humanity will never stop. It's all part of an elaborate process to keep the people dumb.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

27 minutes ago, thepissman said:

As a southerner, I’m going to say yes. To a lot of people over here, the flag represents heritage. 

So are they choosing the ignore the history of the civil war and what the Confederacy fought for then? 

[thepissman 76]

56 minutes ago, Yamet said:

So are they choosing the ignore the history of the civil war and what the Confederacy fought for then? 

OP said no arguing, so I ain’t gonna argue

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

8 minutes ago, thepissman said:

OP said no arguing, so I ain’t gonna argue

We don't have to argue, we can simply have a polite discussion. 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,151]

Personally, and this is coming from a resident of south-west West Virginia where the flag is held, flown, and used by a LOT of good people, I felt it was necessary. While I also agree that it is a representation of slavery, it also represents a group that tried to fight against and overthrow the voted-in government in a bloody conflict. I don't know, but it never made sense to me. I mean, I could, in theory. understand the argument of "it represents my southern heritage" and such, but what does that really mean? Are we using that as an excuse to gloss over just what happened during the Civil War and why it was fought?

My question is how much history are we forgetting by it being in the public light? For everyone saying that we're forgetting history by removing it from governmental buildings & such; how much history were we learning by it remaining there? I won't advocate for every Confederate flag to be removed from private houses and burned, but I do think it'd be better if these flags are displayed in museums where people can actually learn what it stands for AND why people connect to it. To me; it seems we attach more emotion than reason to symbols without understanding how and why they are important.

Disclaimer: I won't claim to know everything about this subject; just my two cents.

[thepissman 76]

42 minutes ago, Yamet said:

We don't have to argue, we can simply have a polite discussion. 

I’d prefer to not have a “polite discussion” on the behalf of my friends and family, thanks. 

[Ganondox 899]

4 hours ago, Key Sharkz said:

Oh thank you so much for trying to defend Anita. First of all, Anita has been caught NUMEROUS times completely ignoring counter arguments. AKA: she never actually makes an argument because she never defends her points. I've listened to tons of her arguments and they often use logical fallacies and poor tactics to fool people into siding with her, but she is incapable of actually backing up her points.

She also is uninformed on the things she discusses. She admitted a few years ago that she did not play video games growing up and then later claimed she grew up with games and experienced this "sexist culture". She was then caught stealing game footage from other people showing she couldn't even be bothered to play the games herself.

She also got up and criticized Fallout 4 and Doom for the amount of violence but was shown in a photoshoot with Fallout New Vegas, Fallout 3 and Doom 3 all in her game collection.

If you want me to show you how many ways Anita has been proven wrong I will gladly do so when I get home but Anita is a flat out liar, plain and simple. To claim people are "not smart enough" because they see her standpoints as offensive and ridiculous is living in delusion.

The point was that someone asked why we should allow something that was DEEMED offensive and I posted Anita as an example of how people are deeming EVERYTHING offensive and the people who claim to be the authority on what's offensive are hypocrites and use false information to push their opinions. In other words I am saying: who gets to decide? Because the people currently deciding are lost in the head.

Every time I see someone give an example of Anita “contradicting” herself, I’ve found said claim to be disproved just by watching the actual video. I’m not fan of her, but from what I’ve seen and know her arguments are completely sound. And while I know at least of your claims to her hypocrisy was taken out of context, it doesn’t MATTER if she’s a hypocrite or not, as regardless of whether or not she’s a terrible person has no bearing on whether her points are factually correct. Finally, she doesn’t NEED to play the games herself, she can still make her conclusions from doing second research. Considering the scope of her videos, where she covers hundreds of games as a part of larger narrative rather than individual games in depth, it’s not even a reasonable expection for her to play all the games herself. I’m not even a fan of her, her critics just don’t actually attack her on valid grounds. It’s clear her content just offended you so you have a bone to pick with her. 

Its completely irrevelant and you know very well there is a big difference between a deliberate symbol that’s represents an explicitly racist organization and well, LITERALLY EVERYTHING. Obviously you can’t ban everything, despite what you’re implying Anita and ilk are NOT the arbitrators, so blatant straw man is blatant. You haven’t actually made any cases for or against the confederate flag, all you’ve done is whine about Anita after dismissing OP’s requests, missing the fact that academic criticism from a feminist perspective and legal policy with regard to race relations are two entirely different things. 

4 hours ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

Yes. In fact, the ban wasn't just unnecessary. It was dangerous.

This isn't about celebrating the Confederacy or racism. History is an important part of our education. Even the most detestable symbols from centuries past have to be preserved. Otherwise, how are people supposed to learn about the Confederacy if our government wants us to pretend it never existed? I'm not exaggerating. Civil war-based movies and video games have been pulled from store shelves just for containing images of that flag. That's the most intellectually dishonest thing you can write into law. And this is exactly why crimes against humanity will never stop. It's all part of an elaborate process to keep the people dumb.

Can you explain exactly what this law is that is forcing these things to be pulled from shelves? Also, civil war movies and video aren’t the best way to learn about the civil war, and no one is saying we stop teaching about it. I’m more concerned with something like Birth of the Nation being banned because despite being horrifically racist it’s extremely racist it’s important to the history of film from a technical standpoint. 

[BlackPony 77]

The confederate flag represents what the south in the 19th century stood for, and that is slavery, and racism, point blank. The people holding on to it are simply holding on to the mentality that slavery is ok. Not to mention that it nearly broke the nation apart driving it to Civil War.

5 hours ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

This isn't about celebrating the Confederacy or racism. 

....that’s literally why people still wave the flag, and why people got so angry about it being banned.

 

5 hours ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

History is an important part of our education. Even the most detestable symbols from centuries past have to be preserved. Otherwise, how are people supposed to learn about the Confederacy if our government wants us to pretend it never existed? I'm not exaggerating. Civil war-based movies and video games have been pulled from store shelves just for containing images of that flag.

I haven’t actually seen this happening myself, but we still have history books, and I agree with @PathfinderCS about keeping it in museums.

 

You are right about one thing, though; history is important... which is why you need to know the racist undertones of the flag, as myself and many other replies have stated. 

5 hours ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

And this is exactly why crimes against humanity will never stop. It's all part of an elaborate process to keep the people dumb.

The only crime against humanity in this case is the waving of the flag. And it’s happening because the people supporting the flag haven’t gotten over the fact that they lost the war. They’re the ones that need to get over themselves. And if anything, allowing the flag to stay there, saying that it’s just “represents history” is keeping the people dumb, especially if they believe it’s okay just because of that claim.

[TBD 17,228]

Banning a flag won't do much, since people can still goes around and showing off their "white superiority"like idiots they are.  Then there's a Neo-nazi we have to deal with...

Quite frankly, no one even give a damn about history anyways.

[BlackPony 77]

5 minutes ago, TBD said:

Banning a flag won't do much, since people can still goes around and showing off their "white superiority"like idiots they are.  Then there's a Neo-nazi we have to deal with..

True, but I feel that it’s a good start, because it shows that we don’t stand for it.

[BloodDrops 762]

don't see how that will do much, you can just hang the flag inside and there you go, no one will know 

don't even see the point in the ban, isn't that flag like representing a separatist state of america or something? 

 

[DubWolf 16,575]

I think it’s purely to maintain a friendlier atmosphere. Imagine if Swastikas were ok to have in Europe; how would a Jew feel that people that support that regime are still around? I realize the Confederates didn’t mass-murder anyone in particular, but they certainly did result in a lot of pain, suffering, and even death of African Americans, then slaves. It’s comparing an apple to a huge apple, but they’re still apples  .

It was about slavery. https://www.livescience.com/13673-civil-war-anniversary-myths.html

I won’t criticize people who do fly it; I actually know of friends who are pro-flag who take on a different meaning of it (Southern pride  ), and I suppose that’s alright; freedom of beliefs I guess?.. but I won’t lie to myself that a lot of people don’t fly it because of racism.

As my Literature professor put it, “those statues belong in the lake!”

[BloodDrops 762]

2 hours ago, WWolf said:

I think it’s purely to maintain a friendlier atmosphere. Imagine if Swastikas were ok to have in Europe; how would a Jew feel that people that support that regime are still around? I realize the Confederates didn’t mass-murder anyone in particular, but they certainly did result in a lot of pain, suffering, and even death of African Americans, then slaves. It’s comparing an apple to a huge apple, but they’re still apples  .

It was about slavery. https://www.livescience.com/13673-civil-war-anniversary-myths.html

I won’t criticize people who do fly it; I actually know of friends who are pro-flag who take on a different meaning of it (Southern pride  ), and I suppose that’s alright; freedom of beliefs I guess?.. but I won’t lie to myself that a lot of people don’t fly it because of racism.

As my Literature professor put it, “those statues belong in the lake!”

I don't have a problem with the Swastikas symbol.

*Gasp*

Now before you run for a mod/admin/ spam the report button to death.

The swastika is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon used commonly in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it has been and remains a sacred symbol of spiritual principles in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck

Then a bunch of Nazi's used it as there symbol and committed tons of horrendous crimes and everyone that now sees this symbol 卐 thinks your supporting Nazism and is racist etc.

I mean look at this racist statue. from the 14th century. Got a 卐 on its base, must be racist and evil right?

Nope, its just unlucky, don' think the original maker thought this silly little symbol will cause so much trouble. A symbol is a symbol it only have meaning if you give it one. 

 

 

 

 

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

10 hours ago, BlackPony said:

....that’s literally why people still wave the flag, and why people got so angry about it being banned.[/quote]

 

What makes you think I'm in favor of waving it? I'm for banning the sale of the flag, prohibiting the flag from being posted on people's front lawns, and taking down statues and other Confederate monuments from state grounds. Those are practically examples of hate speech, so banning them is a given. What I don't support is censorship; rewriting history and erasing all evidence of the flag's existence. That's like destroying evidence of a murder; people can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened, no matter how uncomfortable it makes them.

Quote

I haven’t actually seen this happening myself, but we still have history books, and I agree with

@PathfinderCS about keeping it in museums.

You are right about one thing, though; history is important... which is why you need to know the racist undertones of the flag, as myself and many other replies have stated. 

Apple's pulled Civil War games from their digital marketplace after the Charleston church shooting two years ago. Contrary to what someone else just posted, there's educational value to be found in every medium. Even strategy games designed to reenact the battlefield conditions between two armies in any Civil War engagement. The Confederate flag is merely fact in this context.

It's good that we have books and museums around that document the flag and the Confederacy's dealings in the Civil War. But with how far technology has advanced, they shouldn't be the only source of that knowledge. Because what's to stop somebody from destroying them? That's just what Hitler's army did. They scavenged institutions specifically to loot paintings and burn books that didn't conform with their propaganda. Exposure to historic symbols of oppression makes it easier to oppose people from future generations committing similar acts against minorities. You can't do that with censorship.

And I do know those undertones. I grew up in a time when this subject could still be taught in a class that wasn't driven by political motives.

Quote

The only crime against humanity in this case is the waving of the flag. And it’s happening because the people supporting the flag haven’t gotten over the fact that they lost the war. They’re the ones that need to get over themselves. And if anything, allowing the flag to stay there, saying that it’s just “represents history” is keeping the people dumb, especially if they believe it’s okay just because of that claim.

Keeping a flag as a frame of reference is not the same as propping it up as a positive symbol. If an institution is indoctrinating people to wave that flag like it's something to be proud of, it's our responsibility as a society to shut them down. Period.

But can we really do that if we forget what that flag looks like, or what it represents? Of course not. You don't see China banning documentaries covering the Rape of Nanking for having the Japanese flag, or related biographical films like Ip Man.

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by KillerKingBakudan